Hand Path 1st Person POV

[KD1]

1. From P6 to P7 what does your hand path look like to you relative to your toes?

2. Is this something you've ever thought about?

3. Coaches, does this perspective matter? 

 

Here's some screenshots from a 20 year old video where Tiger was wearing a video camera clipped to the bill of his hat:

 

 

Bonus question: Anyone got any more good 1st person views like this?

Edited August 21, 2024 by KD1

[MonteScheinblum]

I don’t like this idea and there’s a reason.

 

I watch golfers every day following the club head back with their eyes and head because, “I’m trying to make sure it’s on plane.”

 

Bad habit and I can’t list how many things wrong with this.

 

Theres a 100% chance this morphs into the same thing.  People changing their eye focus to their hand path as they approach impact and exit.

 

 

[GungHoGolf]

Potentially relevant:

 

 

Personally, I have found it useful to get in a good impact position, and visually note where my hands are in relation to my lead foot. Then I drill a little with small swings, working up to bigger swings, making that spot my hands’ intended target to pass through at impact. I don’t watch my hands come through, but just see them in my peripheral vision while looking at the ball.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

note where my hands are in relation to my lead foot

 

Where is that for you?

[GungHoGolf]

4 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Where is that for you?

Depends on the club length and intended ball flight, but with mid-irons my hands are typically over my lead toes visually at impact.

Edited August 21, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[KD1]

I never understood how close to get my hands at address. I'd feel like my arms were just hanging straight down but from the down the line view I would still be reaching out. It wasn't until I realized I could reference my hand position based on my toe line as a check point that I could get the hang of it. That idea is what prompted the OP. I tend to hit too much off the heel and watching that "Eye of the Tiger Vision" video above it occurred to me "holy crap! are my hands supposed to be behind my toes in the downswing too?"

 

It was never my intention to literally focus my eyes directly on my hands/hand path.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2024 by KD1

[slytown]

On 8/20/2024 at 10:39 PM, KD1 said:

1. From P6 to P7 what does your hand path look like to you relative to your toes?

2. Is this something you've ever thought about?

3. Coaches, does this perspective matter? 

 

Here's some screenshots from a 20 year old video where Tiger was wearing a video camera clipped to the bill of his hat:

 

 

Bonus question: Anyone got any more good 1st person views like this?

 

Hand path is irrelevant in the downswing. You can't guide the hands on a specific line. Good handpath, face orientation, right arm bend, etc.... whichever benchmarks you make for a good swing, they are not a part of swinging the club. Swinging is a sequence of lateral pressure, rotation, and release. Those are the only three things relevant to the downswing.

 

However, in the takeaway you can. I see more and more pros these days in their pre-shot routine bringing the club back on a good path and trying to mimic that feel in the real. JT, Xander, Lydia, etc. do it. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, slytown said:

Hand path is irrelevant in the downswing. You can't guide the hands on a specific line. Good handpath, face orientation, right arm bend, etc.... whichever benchmarks you make for a good swing, they are not a part of swinging the club. Swinging is a sequence of lateral pressure, rotation, and release. Those are the only three things relevant to the downswing.

 

[KD1]

22 minutes ago, slytown said:

Hand path is irrelevant in the downswing

 

I've spent the last 4 months doing Justin Rose drill, NTC, wall drills, studying AMG topics on shallowing, hand speed, etc. and that was all irrelevant?

 

[glk]

26 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

Hand path is irrelevant in the downswing. You can't guide the hands on a specific line. Good handpath, face orientation, right arm bend, etc.... whichever benchmarks you make for a good swing, they are not a part of swinging the club. Swinging is a sequence of lateral pressure, rotation, and release. Those are the only three things relevant to the downswing.

 

However, in the takeaway you can. I see more and more pros these days in their pre-shot routine bringing the club back on a good path and trying to mimic that feel in the real. JT, Xander, Lydia, etc. do it. 

Dr Kwon has a paper on this - only focuses on the downswing - in short, the hand motion plane is the major determinant of the fucntional swing plane .    If you want to change the path/slope of the fsp then one needs to change the motion of the hands.

Edited August 22, 2024 by glk

[slytown]

4 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

I've spent the last 4 months doing Justin Rose drill, NTC, wall drills, studying AMG topics on shallowing, hand speed, etc. and that was all irrelevant?

 

 

This section is about instruction, so did you try to move your hands on a specific path or was the good handpath a consequence of good sequencing? I would never tell someone to move their hands on a certain path except maybe in the takeaway.

 

I agree, the Justin rose drill is good. However, I think forcing a shallowing move with the hands is usually detrimental.

 

 

3 minutes ago, glk said:

Dr Kwon has a paper on this - only focuses on the downswing - in short, the hand motion plane is the major determinant of the fucntional swing plane .    If you want to change the path/slope of the fsp then one needs to change the motion of the hands.

 

I agree hand path is important but in instruction I don't think its helpful to tell people to move their hands on a certain path. I would rather good handpath be a consequence of other good movements.

 

Edited August 22, 2024 by slytown

[glk]

6 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

This section is about instruction, so did you try to move your hands on a specific path or was the good handpath a consequence of good sequencing? I would never tell someone to move their hands on a certain path except maybe in the takeaway.

 

I agree, the Justin rose drill is good. However, I think forcing a shallowing move with the hands is usually detrimental.

 

 

 

I agree hand path is important but in instruction I don't think its helpful to tell people to move their hands on a certain path. I would rather good handpath be a consequence of other good movements.

 

Obviously everyone's hands move based on how they move their body - frankly most every drill other than setup effects the hand path.  And it is important to have one's hand path and fsp aligned - the better aligned the more consistent the motion of the club - issues arise when the hand path and fsp have significant gaps - one can even have the hands moving in the opposite direction that the fsp is moving - hand moving inward while club is moving outward.

Edited August 22, 2024 by glk

[KD1]

13 minutes ago, slytown said:

so did you try to move your hands on a specific path

 

You bet! When I didn't know any better I left them waaay behind. It's getting better. That's what I'm doing in the Justin Rose drill, getting the hands down in front of the right thigh then turning, AMG's blender drill, same thing. Arm swing illusion, hands in front of the torso and the turn carries the hands around. Maybe I don't understand what you're getting at?

Edited August 22, 2024 by KD1

[596]

53 minutes ago, KD1 said:

I never understood how close to get my hands at address. I'd feel like my arms were just hanging straight down but from the down the line view I would still be reaching out. It wasn't until I realized I could reference my hand position based on my toe line as a check point that I could get the hang of it. That idea is what prompted the OP. I tend to hit too much off the heel and watching that "Eye of the Tiger Vision" video above it occurred to me "holy crap! are my hands supposed to be behind my toes in the downswing too?"

 

It was never my intention to literally focus my eyes directly on my hands/hand path.

 

 

I have no idea. But wouldn't these lines be affected by body proportions?  I have very long legs, long arms but a very short torso.  Not sure lining up the eyes to the hands to the toes would work with different body proportions. 

 

I'd have to try it at the range 

 

[KD1]

47 minutes ago, slytown said:

I agree hand path is important but in instruction I don't think its helpful to tell people to move their hands on a certain path. I would rather good handpath be a consequence of other good movements.

 

I think I see where you're coming from. I'm not trying to skip from step 1 to step 6. I'm looking for references or check points from a different perspective. It's more about calibrating.

 

Does seeing this perspective on wrist action somehow hinder instruction taught from seeing it at these perspectives?

 

 

Edited August 22, 2024 by KD1

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, slytown said:

This section is about instruction, so did you try to move your hands on a specific path or was the good handpath a consequence of good sequencing? I would never tell someone to move their hands on a certain path except maybe in the takeaway.

 

I have people do this all the time on the downswing.

 

I see a lot of golfers whose hands go out to the golf ball too quickly to start the downswing, and if they move them "the right way" with their bodies… they'd have to tip back and down with their bodies to move their hands along the proper hand path.

 

I'd post some GEARS images showing the hand path, but if you're an actual teacher, it's clear that you and I teach very differently, and I don't know how you'd fix some people at all without talking about the hand path and/or using the arms to make the appropriate changes.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, 596 said:

Not sure lining up the eyes to the hands to the toes would work with different body proportions.

 

I'm not suggesting that you would do that. (I'm not suggesting anyone do anything) I'm asking if you've ever used your hands relative to your toes as a calibration point for you. maybe from your eye you would like them to cross inside your toes, or not, i dunno. Would this awareness do any good for consistency's sake? ... Monte doesn't like it.

 

(Edit) All that said, when I saw tigers toes in the screenshots above my thought was "holy crap, I'm no where near being able to see it like that!" And paraphrasing here but Monte does say you might not be able to do what the pros do but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to. I realize the camera isn't exactly what he sees either but again I'm not even close to that.

Edited August 22, 2024 by KD1

[slytown]

On 8/22/2024 at 11:10 AM, iacas said:

 

I have people do this all the time on the downswing.

 

I see a lot of golfers whose hands go out to the golf ball too quickly to start the downswing, and if they move them "the right way" with their bodies… they'd have to tip back and down with their bodies to move their hands along the proper hand path.

 

I'd post some GEARS images showing the hand path, but if you're an actual teacher, it's clear that you and I teach very differently, and I don't know how you'd fix some people at all without talking about the hand path and/or using the arms to make the appropriate changes.

 

I agree. If u are teaching them to move the club in the right way, focusing on hand positions is a good check.

 

Im not a professional, but I just find when people ask me for advice they do better when I teach them how to move, rather than what hand positions to aim for. Too confusing for normal golfers.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, slytown said:

Im not a professional, but I just find when people ask me for advice they do better when I teach them how to move, rather than what hand positions to aim for. Too confusing for normal golfers.

 

This is an entirely different type of discussion than what was being talked about before. I disagree almost entirely with this:

 

On 8/22/2024 at 10:06 AM, slytown said:

Hand path is irrelevant in the downswing. You can't guide the hands on a specific line. Good handpath, face orientation, right arm bend, etc.... whichever benchmarks you make for a good swing, they are not a part of swinging the club. Swinging is a sequence of lateral pressure, rotation, and release. Those are the only three things relevant to the downswing.

• Hand path is very relevant.
• You can guide the hands on a specific path. I do it all the time with students.
• They are part of swinging the club.
• There's much more to the golf swing than "lateral pressure, rotation, and release."

 

[slytown]

On 8/24/2024 at 12:54 PM, iacas said:

 

This is an entirely different type of discussion than what was being talked about before. I disagree almost entirely with this:

 

• Hand path is very relevant.
• You can guide the hands on a specific path. I do it all the time with students.
• They are part of swinging the club.
• There's much more to the golf swing than "lateral pressure, rotation, and release."

 

 

I want to clarify. Hand path is VERY important. But, as an instruction to a student, I think telling them to put their hands in a certain place isn't helpful. I would much rather teach someone forces and how to move the club, rather than trying to have the hands move on a certain line.

 

I can tell someone to move their hands over their right shoulder at P4 but there are many ways to get there. I could roll my forearms, dip forward, slide, etc. and still do that with my hands. A better way to get the hands to a certain position in instruction would be to teach movement of the lower body, the torso, and the arms. 

 

For the OP, @KD1, I like to see the hands go out from P4, not straight down in transition. I have never thought about MOVING my hands back to or near the set up position at impact. Impact just happens. I just swing using proper forces in the downswing: lateral, torso rotation, arm/wrist release. Golf is a sport. You need to be more athletic instead of trying to hit certain positions on camera, IMHO.

[iacas]

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

I want to clarify. Hand path is VERY important. But, as an instruction to a student, I think telling them to put their hands in a certain place isn't helpful.

 

The hand path isn't a "place" it's a "direction." I can, and do, direct students to change their hand paths all the time. For some of them it's early in the backswing. For others, it's in transition and the early downswing. Did it with two students yesterday. Probably did it nearly two months ago on the day when I posted about it last, too. 😄 

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

I would much rather teach someone forces and how to move the club, rather than trying to have the hands move on a certain line.

 

I don't know that I get what you're trying to say here, because where the student moves their hands has a very direct effect on where the golf club goes. Heck…

 

 

This gentleman got a very quick lesson on hand path and what I often call "throwing" at the start of a mostly GRF-based lesson (it's what he wanted). His path went from 7° left to 2° right (and 7° or more to the right when I first asked him to over-do the heck out of it).

 

If you're trying to talk about internal vs. external focus, then that's not super clear, but I use a mixture of both in talking to students. Students learn best when they're given all kinds of ways to learn (visual, auditory, moving them, mimicry, exaggeration, constraints, etc. etc. etc.) and focal points (internal, external…).

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

I can tell someone to move their hands over their right shoulder at P4 but there are many ways to get there.

 

That's a position, not a path. I've never said I teach "positions." I'm quoted as saying "Hand path is very important." The hand path is the "way to get there."

 

You keep saying things that agree with me… in a way that makes it seem like you disagree.

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

I could roll my forearms, dip forward, slide, etc. and still do that with my hands. A better way to get the hands to a certain position in instruction would be to teach movement of the lower body, the torso, and the arms.

 

In other words… to teach the hand path. I've also never said I only teach the hand path, and at this point, I'm not even sure what you're reading from what I've written, or what you're trying to say. Of course how you move your legs affects your hand path and, ultimately, how the club moves.

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

For the OP, @KD1, I like to see the hands go out from P4, not straight down in transition.

 

Oof, no. If "out" is toward the ball, almost every good player's first move with the hands is downward. Many are even ever so slightly away from the ball, like / down the line for a righty. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, and "out" is away from the target or something, I don't agree.

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

I have never thought about MOVING my hands back to or near the set up position at impact.

 

I don't know where that came from. And I'm not talking about YOUR feels or needs. How could I? I'm talking about what actually happens in the swings of good players. #FeelAintReal

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

Impact just happens.

 

Well that's not quite true. It's like saying you're powerless to change anything about it. Impact happens… as a result of everything the golfer does, as well as the forces (gravity, mostly) acting on that golfer.

 

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

I just swing using proper forces in the downswing: lateral, torso rotation, arm/wrist release. Golf is a sport. You need to be more athletic instead of trying to hit certain positions on camera, IMHO.

 

"If I just make a proper swing, I'll be good." Well no kidding. But many people don't "use the proper forces" and so they need to change how they do some things: the timing, the direction, the point of application… the magnitude… Positions are checkpoints along the pathway.

 

And dude, I've not argued for positions. Please re-read what I've written. If that's what you took for all that I wrote, you didn't read it very carefully, or you're not understanding what I'm saying.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

I want to clarify. Hand path is VERY important. But, as an instruction to a student, I think telling them to put their hands in a certain place isn't helpful. I would much rather teach someone forces and how to move the club, rather than trying to have the hands move on a certain line.

 

I can tell someone to move their hands over their right shoulder at P4 but there are many ways to get there. I could roll my forearms, dip forward, slide, etc. and still do that with my hands. A better way to get the hands to a certain position in instruction would be to teach movement of the lower body, the torso, and the arms. 

 

For the OP, @KD1, I like to see the hands go out from P4, not straight down in transition. I have never thought about MOVING my hands back to or near the set up position at impact. Impact just happens. I just swing using proper forces in the downswing: lateral, torso rotation, arm/wrist release. Golf is a sport. You need to be more athletic instead of trying to hit certain positions on camera, IMHO.

This is a long standing debate.  Do you teach position and mechanics or do you teach external focus and feels?  People are both sides of the debate are equally steadfast for many reasons that actually make sense.

 

The issue is both groups are right and wrong.

 

If you don’t know what position or movement you’re actually trying to accomplish, you will never create it properly and it’s a merry go round of fleeting feels.  Most golfers are there.  
 

If you are obsessed with perfect movements and positions, you will be bogged down and locked up.

 

Group 1 has a running narrative of aha moments where they have “found it” that last a day or 2, maybe a week and group 2 has a great looking swing on still frames and can’t play a lick.

 

The simple answer is you need a proper balance of both.  My lessons are in two parts.

 

Part 1 is a discussion of what they are trying to accomplish.  Could be a movement, could be a position or a bit of both.  That lasts about 1 minute.  
 

Part 2 is what feels and external foci will create that position/movement dynamically.  That’s the rest of the lesson.

 

If you thumb your nose at either discussion, you won’t reach the goal.

 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 10/10/2024 at 9:20 AM, iacas said:

This gentleman got a very quick lesson on hand path and what I often call "throwing" at the start of a mostly GRF-based lesson (it's what he wanted). His path went from 7° left to 2° right (and 7° or more to the right when I first asked him to over-do the heck out of it).

Cue the Dave Chappelle, "Um, you got any more of those quick lessons?" meme...  But, um...just what was the quick lesson that got your student's path from 7° left to 2° right?

 

Just curious.  No reason.  (Looks at straight drives making 90° right turns, 200 yds out.)  No reason, at all...

Edited October 12, 2024 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Cue the Dave Chappelle, "Um, you got any more of those quick lessons?" meme...  But, um...just what was the quick lesson that got your student's path from 7° left to 2° right?

 

Just curious.  No reason.  (Looks at straight drives making 90° right turns, 200 yds out.)  No reason, at all...

 

Ha ha.

 

He, like a ton of golfers, turned before the hands came down. So, we talked about the feeling of moving his arms and hands down toward his right pocket FIRST (to "start" his downswing, again, feel only as nobody can really do this at any speed in a swing) and I had him hit some balls, then.

 

Pretty instant. Often slightly fat, too, because OTT or left does two things for golfers:

• Helps shift the path left enough that the face gets dragged a bit left so they have a chance of hitting it toward the target.
• Moves low point forward.