Lowering The Arms / Justin Rose Drill Question

[GoGoErky]

11 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

"we want to maintain these angles" referring to right elbow bend. This is in direct opposition to AMG.

 

But I think we're getting side tracked here.

 

I just see a completely different action when amg demonstrates lowering here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfvVnWwhQFc?si=iYzgb3xFDilj02y7&t=1050

 

So I see that amg avatar and then I see the "death move" in @Acooke2434's thread and then I'm thoroughly confused.

 

You brought the topic up. If you look at the amg video when they start showing the portion where the body is rotating you see less elbow unfolding.

 

His hands are working behind him. Combined with what was pointed out about how close he stands to the ball and his butt being to far back. 
 

If we look at cast a as an example of what to do with the arms then we need to look at what Monte says about the backswing. You have to be on a good backswing position first. As I understand ing not then trying to lower the arms properly is going to make things worse

[glk]

What is confusing?   Hands work down, pivot brings them out.    So intentionally dropping the arms behind or bringing them out leads to compensations and slows the hands resulting in them being behind the pivot, ie don't get to the trail thigh by p6.     The other big issue, which even good swings have, is that from the top they pull the trail arm into the side of the body - this leads to the arms being stuck also - I imagine folks do this when they hear get the elbow in front and see these videos - haven't see many explain that the arm does not come to the side of the body  until late in the downswing not immediately from the top.    Some even compound this move by then tilting the trail shoulder.   So the Rose drill, assuming you have a good backswing, is just literally dropping the arms down and allowing the pivot to bring them out.    Folks with too little or too much depth will have an issue, folks that intentionally move them backward or forwards will have an issue.

Edited August 24, 2024 by glk

[KD1]

4 minutes ago, glk said:

haven't see many explain that the arm does not come to the side of the body then until late in the downswing not immediately from the top. 

How late?

[glk]

9 minutes ago, KD1 said:

How late?

after p5.    

 

Scott is a nice example.

 

Edited August 24, 2024 by glk

[glk]

Hard to see the arm being pulled into the side but here are two stills that show an arm pull and not.

 

Kennedy Pedigo working with Dr Kwon and one of her issues was the arm pull - look at her right elbow at this point - very little space with arm pulled against the side.   They did work to fix this along with her general motion pattern.

 

Adam Scott at about the same point.  Lots of space between the elbow and body

 

 

 

[ac6]

I like this drill a lot as I have a similar tendency--hands too deep at top then move outward in transition. My understanding of it is that the hands should lower back to where they started in relation to the upper body. That is, hands back to the middle of the body, but with your back still facing the target. Not a line straight down from where they were. Doing that and lowering hand to the trail thigh gets your trail arm stuck behind the torso imo 

[slytown]

18 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

Well there's my confusion. At first glance that looks like in front of the trail thigh. But if you consider his hips are turned and the camera angle is face on aren't his hands inside his trail thigh?

 

Remember the pro vs ams shallowing vid last year? They isolated the arm movements and took the tilts and turn out of it. From that perspective where do the hands go? Still straight in front of the trail thigh? Like if the foot is turned straight out then over the foot or to the left of the foot?

 

I'm trying to be very specific here because the distinction between those two positions seems to make a world of difference for me.

 

Position of the hands at P6 relative to the thigh/knee depends on the persons flexibility. I don't think everyone's benchmark should be on the knee. It should be between the feet though. If the hands are still behind the feet face on, thats getting stuck or casting the club. Some folks have a more planted right leg than others at P6, so the knee will be in different positions for everyone. So long as the shaft is parallel to the ground and the hands have moved between the feet, ur good.

 

The strongest players with the most pivot and compression will have the hands over the ball at P6, but that's really hard to do and get proper height.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

I stumbled across this video just now. Some of it is a bit counter to what AMG tells us (and a thing or two directly counter) and I'll always defer to their data backed teaching... but does anyone have any thoughts on this:

 

 

It's slightly simplified, but they're more toward the "keep the right elbow bent, rotate a ton, right side bend a bunch" type swings.

 

That's all.

[bdub_7]

8 hours ago, KD1 said:

Pinky toe side vs big toe side of the ankle I assume?

I think trying to nitpick between which side of the ankle is just a recipe for overthinking. I believe the feel was to just get my arms going in that general direction. Bryson talks about something similar when he says swing to your right pocket.

[Jeselnik]

6 hours ago, KD1 said:

Hold on, monte's got a insta for that....

 

here it is https://www.instagram.com/reel/C9i7RmAvbNI/

That happens later, in the hitting zone.  If you have enough handspeed and use a small pulley you won’t be able to do it, it will feel like your lead scalp is about to detach.

 

JNIK

Edited August 24, 2024 by Jeselnik

[Jeselnik]

duplicate.

Edited August 24, 2024 by Jeselnik

[KD1]

34 minutes ago, bdub_7 said:

I think trying to nitpick between which side of the ankle

 

That's what this entire threads about. To me it feels like a world of difference.

 

It's an entirely different direction and wildly different feel. I just don't understand how that can be nitpicking.

Edited August 24, 2024 by KD1

[Jeselnik]

6 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

That's what this entire threads about. To me it feels like a world of difference.

 

It's an entirely different direction and wildly different feel. I just don't understand how that can be nitpicking.

I don’t think about the location, just the feel, alignments and the angle relative to target line.  Learn feel from mechanics, better like this or like this, education and training.

 

JNIK

[KD1]

Going to leave this here to add to the collection of videos so far

 

 

[bdub_7]

27 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

That's what this entire threads about. To me it feels like a world of difference.

 

It's an entirely different direction and wildly different feel. I just don't understand how that can be nitpicking.

I think we're miscommunicating somewhere along the line then. At the top of my backswing, swinging to the inside or outside of my right ankle is the same feel. It just feels like my arms are going down.

[vegasandre]

Thank you everyone.. New feels that make sense to me..
Looking forward to dropping this stuff on Monte at my first lesson with him next week. 
Maybe I will bring some extra xanax for him. 

[absoludicrous]

1 minute ago, vegasandre said:

Thank you everyone.. New feels that make sense to me..
Looking forward to dropping this stuff on Monte at my first lesson with him next week. 
Maybe I will bring some extra xanax for him. 

Just wait until you see him. I thought I needed to work on NTC and when I saw him, he told me not to worry/focus on that. My swing didn’t need that and more improvement would come from fixing what he gave me in the lesson instead. Good luck with the lesson.

[KD1]

42 minutes ago, vegasandre said:

Looking forward to dropping this stuff on Monte

 

Not really sure what you mean. He's the one that dropped it on me 🤣

[Acooke2434]

It's a pickle @KD1... I spent you know... 10, 20 years or whatever over the top playing poopy golf.  Then this past year drilling in the hands and arms backwards move. Now I gotta get less shallow again!

[Acooke2434]

7 hours ago, KD1 said:

Going to leave this here to add to the collection of videos so far

 

 

Holy smokes the drill in this looks like it will be perfect to get the hands and arms back in front of me on the downswing. Thank you!

[CasualLie]

14 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

That's what this entire threads about. To me it feels like a world of difference.

 

It's an entirely different direction and wildly different feel. I just don't understand how that can be nitpicking.

 

Kind of...I see what you mean, but I wouldn't be chasing an exact location without considering other parts that are critical.  What works better, you are just outside the ankle but still holding the appropriate wrist angle and face alignment, or you nail the hand location relative to the ankle, but the face is open and releasing?  I know which I would take.

 

Point being, make sure you get the other things right on the way up and the transition; you might be surprised how P6 looks a lot better as a result.

 

As Monte, and others have stated/shown, once you start down, trying to direct a move is too late, ball is gone.

[KD1]

4 hours ago, CasualLie said:

As Monte, and others have stated/shown, once you start down, trying to direct a move is too late, ball is gone.

 

Well that's exactly why I'm asking precisely which direction the intent needs to be before starting down.

[teh_prawn]

2 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

Well that's exactly why I'm asking precisely which direction the intent needs to be before starting down.

 

It's something individual, perhaps it would help to know what you think your problem might be and why you think dropping the hands is the solution.

 

I had to actively incorporate it as a drill because I was rotating too quickly and not giving the hands enough time to 'drop'. 

 

So in terms of intent, 'down' feels correct to me, but I'm not pushing or pulling the club down with the arms, I'm swinging the club out towards my trail side to bring the club head down.

 

Visually, it appears like I'm dropping the arms. However, what it feels like, is casting the club away from my body, and the momentum created is what drops the arms (I should add supple wrists is key here).

 

Then in parallel, not after, as I feel the momentum, or the weight (or change of direction), of the club coming down, I feel a trigger to rotate. Again, this rotation feeling may not be what you feel, and tbh it's so default I don't even know what I'm doing - visually it's side bend with the pelvis opening but that's not what I feel. 

 

So, down works for me, but you could also feel it as out, or pushing the club away. 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

Well that's exactly why I'm asking precisely which direction the intent needs to be before starting down.

Have you done the Monte drill of lowering the arms to see where they end up?

 

 

[KD1]

2 hours ago, teh_prawn said:

It's something individual

 

I'm thinking this is the answer unfortunately.

 

2 hours ago, teh_prawn said:

perhaps it would help to know what you think your problem might be and why you think dropping the hands is the solution

Monte told me I spin my shoulders out too fast and to work on the Justin Rose drill.

 

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Have you done the Monte drill of lowering the arms to see where they end up?

Yessir. 

 

2 hours ago, teh_prawn said:

It's something individual

In my case I think down and inside toward my inner right thigh seems to work best for me to get away from the heel... at the moment. If I had the intent to put my hands outside my right knee like the Justin Rose youtube video posted on the first page I'd leave my hands a mile behind and shank it into the trees.

[vernon]

I really need to spend more time on this in the evenings in front of a mirror.  It works so ridiculously well when done right but it's easy to become too focused on just how the arms start down when I'm on the golf course and everything else goes to crap as a result.

 

Kinda the whole bottle of aspirin instead of just one sort of analogy.

[Jebuss]

@KD1 For the past month I've been working on this same thing with the arms first feel to start the downswing. The Justin Rose drill wasn't working for me at all. I just couldn't get it right.

 

But I recently found this video with Porzak Golf on hand path. The whole video is great, but I have it timestamped on the feel that I've been using with amazing results. It's the part where you are keeping the wrist angle and driving the handle into an imaginary nail by your trail knee. 

 

I've recorded myself and I've been in positions I've never seen myself in with clean contact. My bad shots that look back on either I'm throwing the wrist angle away before P6 or my shoulders are spinning out first before I drop my hands.

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Jebuss

[NosajNeelik]

4 hours ago, Jebuss said:

@KD1 For the past month I've been working on this same thing with the arms first feel to start the downswing. The Justin Rose drill wasn't working for me at all. I just couldn't get it right.

 

But I recently found this video with Porzak Golf on hand path. The whole video is great, but I have it timestamped on the feel that I've been using with amazing results. It's the part where you are keeping the wrist angle and driving the handle into an imaginary nail by your trail knee. 

 

I've recorded myself and I've been in positions I've never seen myself in with clean contact. My bad shots that look back on either I'm throwing the wrist angle away before P6 or my shoulders are spinning out first before I drop my hands.

 

 

 

My coach wants me to do the Rose feel, back to target etc like this thread is saying, this porzak looks great but how is this not bleeding into “pulling the handle” territory? 

Edited August 27, 2024 by NosajNeelik

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, NosajNeelik said:

My coach wants me to do the Rose feel, back to target etc like this thread is saying, this porzak looks great but how is this not bleeding into “pulling the handle” territory? 

It’s straight-up “hold the lag” territory, which is heresy ‘round here… and it works for that player. I’ve seen a video by @virtuoso recommending something similar to a player who needed it.

[Jebuss]

7 hours ago, NosajNeelik said:

My coach wants me to do the Rose feel, back to target etc like this thread is saying, this porzak looks great but how is this not bleeding into “pulling the handle” territory? 

I agree it can be overdone into pulling the handle, but I have the same issues as the guy taking the lesson in the video. On top of not lowering my arms quick enough, I throw my wrist angles away too early.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Jebuss