Tamping down green imperfections

[denkea]

I know since the last rules changes it is now ok to tamp down spike marks etc.  

Yesterday I witness a player tamp down spike marks and then tamp down the edges of the hole.

Is it also ok to tamp down the grass on the sides of the hole?

[Mr. Bean]

If the edges are damaged or raised above the level of the surrounding green the player has the right to try to fix it. Any effort to make a slope towards hole is forbidden.

[davep043]

You should read Rule 13.1c(2) to understand what types of "damage" are allowed to be repaired, and how they may be repaired.  In particular, "natural wear of the hole" is NOT considered Damage, and so may not be repaired.  

[Newby]

11 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You should read Rule 13.1c(2) to understand what types of "damage" are allowed to be repaired, and how they may be repaired.  In particular, "natural wear of the hole" is NOT considered Damage, and so may not be repaired.  

When refereeing, I find this is the one that gets many players moaning or making a fuss.

Natural surface imperfections (such as weeds or areas of bare, diseased or uneven growth)

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

When refereeing, I find this is the one that gets many players moaning or making a fuss.

Natural surface imperfections (such as weeds or areas of bare, diseased or uneven growth)

That would be one…this would be another.  I’m not sure I’ve ever played with anyone that would not either move their ball position or fix the aeration hole if their ball was directly in it on the green. Not the holes on their line but just the one the ball is sitting in.

 

 

 

But “damage on the putting green” does not include any damage or conditions that result from:
    •    Normal practices for maintaining the overall condition of the putting green (such as aeration holes and grooves from vertical mowing),

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

But “damage on the putting green” does not include any damage or conditions that result from:
    •    Normal practices for maintaining the overall condition of the putting green (such as aeration holes and grooves from vertical mowing),

 

Under those circumstances, however, any sensible Committee will put MLR E-4 in force to allow relief from an aeration hole (ball only).

[Augster]

I Always tamp down the edges of the hole in the morning. It gets rid of the “volcano” ridges from the cup cutter being pulled out too fast and pulling up the edges. 

[Shilgy]

12 minutes ago, Augster said:

I Always tamp down the edges of the hole in the morning. It gets rid of the “volcano” ridges from the cup cutter being pulled out too fast and pulling up the edges. 

I’m guessing that’s worthy of the general penalty.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

I’m guessing that’s worthy of the general penalty.

 

That is something to give a thought to.

 

What is damage to the hole? Does damage equal to conditions that are not supposed to exist? If the edges are lifted they will deflect any ball not traveling straight towards the center of the hole. Is that something to be desired?

 

Maybe our greenkeepers use different tools as they usually have a plate in use that prevents those "volcano" ridges to be formed so I have never experienced the need to tamp edges of the hole down and have never seen anyone doing that. Also I am rather worried that tamping the edges down just might do the reverse, i.e. push the edges downwards.

 

All in all, as a player I would be very very careful in tamping down anything along the edges of the hole and let the Committee do the job if conditions so warrant.

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Mr. Bean

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is something to give a thought to.

 

What is damage to the hole? Does damage equal to conditions that are not supposed to exist? If the edges are lifted they will deflect any ball not traveling straight towards the center of the hole. Is that something to be desired?

 

Maybe our greenkeepers use different tools as they have a plate that prevents those "volcano" ridges to be formed so I have never experienced the need to tamp edges of the hole down and have never seen anyone doing that. Also I am rather worried that tamping the edges down just might do the reverse, i.e. push the edges downwards.

 

All in all, as a player I would be very very careful in tamping down anything along the edges of the hole and let the Committee do the job if conditions so warrant.

 

I would say however the hole cutter left it is “original”.  In a tournament I would ask for a ruling if holes were egregiously left with the slope but certainly would not be expecting any result.

 

I’d just putt thinking it’s a bit uphill at the need….a bit more pace than usual.

 

But if the player improves the putting green by taking actions that exceed what is reasonable to restore the putting green to its original condition the player gets the general penalty.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

 

I would say however the hole cutter left it is “original”.  In a tournament I would ask for a ruling if holes were egregiously left with the slope but certainly would not be expecting any result.

 

I’d just putt thinking it’s a bit uphill at the need….a bit more pace than usual.

 

But if the player improves the putting green by taking actions that exceed what is reasonable to restore the putting green to its original condition the player gets the general penalty.

 

What if you tamp down the cup area after you hole out? Still GP?

[Shilgy]

31 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What if you tamp down the cup area after you hole out? Still GP?

Good question-I would say yes still a penalty

 

But “damage on the putting green” does not include any damage or conditions that result from:
    •    Normal practices for maintaining the overall condition of the putting green (such as aeration holes and grooves from vertical mowing),
 

i would call hole cutting a normal practice

[ThinkingPlus]

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Good question-I would say yes still a penalty

 

But “damage on the putting green” does not include any damage or conditions that result from:
    •    Normal practices for maintaining the overall condition of the putting green (such as aeration holes and grooves from vertical mowing),
 

i would call hole cutting a normal practice

Well, I guess I should stop messing with the hole then...

[Augster]

You folks are daft. They changed all that in 2019. I think you’re focusing on “what you can’t do”, which is extremely vague,  when you should be focusing on what IS allowed. 
 

Repair of Damage. A player may repair damage on the putting green without penalty by taking reasonable actions to restore the putting green as nearly as possible to its original condition, but only:
    •    By using their hand, foot or other part of the body or a normal ball-mark repair tool, tee, club or similar item of normal equipment,

 

“Damage on the putting green” means any damage caused by any person (including the player) or outside influence, such as:
    •    Ball marks, shoe damage (such as spike marks) and scrapes or indentations caused by equipment or a flagstick,
    •    Old hole plugs, turf plugs, seams of cut turf and scrapes or indentations from maintenance tools or vehicles,
    •    Animal tracks or hoof indentations, and
    •    Embedded objects (such as a stone, acorn, hail or tee) and indentations caused by them.”

 

Bolded parts are the correct parts. 
 

If the hole isn’t perfectly round, I’ll walk right up with my ball and roll it on the inside of the cup to fix it, BEFORE I putt. This has been allowed since 2019 Rules. 
 

LOTS of people scrape the ball out of the cup with their putters or aren’t as precise with taking the flag out or in or aren’t as precise with their suction cups and raise the edge around the cup. We are allowed to tap this down. 
 

There is NO requirement in the Rules that you have to physically see with your eyes that there is damage there. Then ask everyone and get a consensus. The damage could be minuscule. Even microscopic. Or it could be blended in with the other grass and you don’t notice it before your putt. 
 

By tamping it down it avoids any of this stuff. 
 

The Rules mention “natural wear of the hole”. I would posit that almost all visible “natural wear” is actually damage from other players. 

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, Augster said:

You folks are daft. They changed all that in 2019. I think you’re focusing on “what you can’t do”, which is extremely vague,  when you should be focusing on what IS allowed. 
 

Repair of Damage. A player may repair damage on the putting green without penalty by taking reasonable actions to restore the putting green as nearly as possible to its original condition, but only:
    •    By using their hand, foot or other part of the body or a normal ball-mark repair tool, tee, club or similar item of normal equipment,

 

“Damage on the putting green” means any damage caused by any person (including the player) or outside influence, such as:
    •    Ball marks, shoe damage (such as spike marks) and scrapes or indentations caused by equipment or a flagstick,
    •    Old hole plugs, turf plugs, seams of cut turf and scrapes or indentations from maintenance tools or vehicles,
    •    Animal tracks or hoof indentations, and
    •    Embedded objects (such as a stone, acorn, hail or tee) and indentations caused by them.”

 

Bolded parts are the correct parts. 
 

If the hole isn’t perfectly round, I’ll walk right up with my ball and roll it on the inside of the cup to fix it, BEFORE I putt. This has been allowed since 2019 Rules. 
 

LOTS of people scrape the ball out of the cup with their putters or aren’t as precise with taking the flag out or in or aren’t as precise with their suction cups and raise the edge around the cup. We are allowed to tap this down. 
 

There is NO requirement in the Rules that you have to physically see with your eyes that there is damage there. Then ask everyone and get a consensus. The damage could be minuscule. Even microscopic. Or it could be blended in with the other grass and you don’t notice it before your putt. 
 

By tamping it down it avoids any of this stuff. 
 

The Rules mention “natural wear of the hole”. I would posit that almost all visible “natural wear” is actually damage from other players. 

IMO none of what you bolded applies at all.  And if you did you ball around the edge of the green here you’d definitely be ….outed?  You’re essentially making the hole microscopically(your phrase)  bigger every time you putt.

[Nickb333]

Cups can become little volcanoes over the course of a day for two reasons. One is ham fisted flag pulling which pulls the cup upward slightly each time it’s done. And folks stepping too close to the hole when retrieving their ball. 
 

My club has this problem for sure, as did the old now gone Escondido CC. It’s very difficult to drip puts in. In fact I had one u turn on me today. Should have dripped in but literally stopped over the lip and came back toward me about an inch. 

[antip]

5 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What if you tamp down the cup area after you hole out? Still GP?

You cannot get an 8.1 penalty if you have already finished the hole - assuming you are not doing it to specifically assist another player in your group, which would breach 8.3.

[antip]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

You folks are daft. They changed all that in 2019. I think you’re focusing on “what you can’t do”, which is extremely vague,  when you should be focusing on what IS allowed. 
 

Repair of Damage. A player may repair damage on the putting green without penalty by taking reasonable actions to restore the putting green as nearly as possible to its original condition, but only:
    •    By using their hand, foot or other part of the body or a normal ball-mark repair tool, tee, club or similar item of normal equipment,

 

“Damage on the putting green” means any damage caused by any person (including the player) or outside influence, such as:
    •    Ball marks, shoe damage (such as spike marks) and scrapes or indentations caused by equipment or a flagstick,
    •    Old hole plugs, turf plugs, seams of cut turf and scrapes or indentations from maintenance tools or vehicles,
    •    Animal tracks or hoof indentations, and
    •    Embedded objects (such as a stone, acorn, hail or tee) and indentations caused by them.”

 

Bolded parts are the correct parts. 
 

If the hole isn’t perfectly round, I’ll walk right up with my ball and roll it on the inside of the cup to fix it, BEFORE I putt. This has been allowed since 2019 Rules. 
 

LOTS of people scrape the ball out of the cup with their putters or aren’t as precise with taking the flag out or in or aren’t as precise with their suction cups and raise the edge around the cup. We are allowed to tap this down. 
 

There is NO requirement in the Rules that you have to physically see with your eyes that there is damage there. Then ask everyone and get a consensus. The damage could be minuscule. Even microscopic. Or it could be blended in with the other grass and you don’t notice it before your putt. 
 

By tamping it down it avoids any of this stuff. 
 

The Rules mention “natural wear of the hole”. I would posit that almost all visible “natural wear” is actually damage from other players. 

Whether there is damage is a question of fact. You cannot launch yourself at every hole in the morning on the assumption there is/must be damage. And in a significant event, the player that makes a habit of attacking the hole vicinity is going to come under close scrutiny. 

[Augster]

12 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Cups can become little volcanoes over the course of a day for two reasons. One is ham fisted flag pulling which pulls the cup upward slightly each time it’s done. And folks stepping too close to the hole when retrieving their ball. 
 

My club has this problem for sure, as did the old now gone Escondido CC. It’s very difficult to drip puts in. In fact I had one u turn on me today. Should have dripped in but literally stopped over the lip and came back toward me about an inch. 

This is why you tamp down the hole a bit, especially if you’re playing later in the day. The constant pulling of the stick does raise the cup a little and that cup pushes the soil up, thereby raising the edge of the grass around the hole just a little. 
 

This is all player-made “damage” and is totally legal to repair before putting. And in MOST cases you can’t visibly SEE the damage, but it’s certainly there, as, in your example, your slow moving ball will show you. 
 

Luckily, the ROG don’t mention any requirement that the damage must be “visible”. The damage that volcanos your ball, in almost all cases, isn’t visible as the edge of the cup is raised so minutely. 
 

One cannot “crush” the edge of the cup to angle down into the hole. But lightly pushing the damage around the cup (tamping down) back to level is acceptable. 
 

Y’all are living in the past. (Pre 2019). 
 

[sui generis]

Ref, "What's going on here?"

 

Player, "I'm repairing the hole, because it may be raised."

 

Ref, "Show me."

 

Player, "Well, you can't see it, but it must be raised."

 

Ref, "Don't let me see you doing that again."

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

This is why you tamp down the hole a bit, especially if you’re playing later in the day. The constant pulling of the stick does raise the cup a little and that cup pushes the soil up, thereby raising the edge of the grass around the hole just a little. 
 

This is all player-made “damage” and is totally legal to repair before putting. And in MOST cases you can’t visibly SEE the damage, but it’s certainly there, as, in your example, your slow moving ball will show you. 
 

Luckily, the ROG don’t mention any requirement that the damage must be “visible”. The damage that volcanos your ball, in almost all cases, isn’t visible as the edge of the cup is raised so minutely. 
 

One cannot “crush” the edge of the cup to angle down into the hole. But lightly pushing the damage around the cup (tamping down) back to level is acceptable. 
 

Y’all are living in the past. (Pre 2019). 
 

 

You are on a wrong path, my friend. In order to repair something there must be something to be repaired. Just a postulate "there must be something to be repaired even though it cannot be seen" is simply inadequate.

 

Besides, how do you know you have repaired it if you cannot see what it is to be repaired?

 

Cannot wait to hear your answer.

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Mr. Bean

[ThinkingPlus]

11 hours ago, antip said:

You cannot get an 8.1 penalty if you have already finished the hole - assuming you are not doing it to specifically assist another player in your group, which would breach 8.3.

That answer feels better.

[Augster]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You are on a wrong path, my friend. In order to repair something there must be something to be repaired. Just a postulate "there must be something to be repaired even though it cannot be seen" is simply inadequate.

 

Besides, how do you know you have repaired it if you cannot see what it is to be repaired?

 

Cannot wait to hear your answer.

 

Show me the requirement, in the Rules, that the damage must be seen. 
 

If I’m playing later in the day, I know 100% that that flag has been pulled multiple times before I played the hole. Just the act of pulling out the flag, over and over, will raise the cup which raises the soil, which raised the lip. You can not see it. But the ball will certainly react to it if it’s moving slow enough. 
 

There is no requirement to SEE this damage in the Rules. We all know it’s there because that’s how physics works. Even if it’s raised less than 1mm, it’s still raised. It’s still damage. And tamping it down to level is still “restoring the putting green as nearly as possible to its original condition.” 
 

This was changed and argued in 2019. I’m actually really surprised this is a point of contention. The Ruling bodies INTENTIONALLY left out being able to see the damage because then they’d have to define ALL damage on the putting green. 
 

“If the lip of the cup is raised 1mm, you cannot tamp it down. If it’s raised between 2mm and 4mm, ask everyone in your group if they can see the damage also. If they can see it also, tamp it down. If they can’t, but you can, you are screwed. Get playing partners with better eyes.”

 

I remember this being in a memo sent out by the USGA, one of those picture things they do, in 2018 before the 2019 Rules came out. It’s actually quite strange to be arguing this in 2024, almost 6 years after the Rules were changed. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

Show me the requirement, in the Rules, that the damage must be seen.

 

As others pointed out, and you've avoided… if you can't see it, what's the "damage" and when will you know that you've repaired it?

 

You can't just go mucking around with the hole.

 

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

If I’m playing later in the day, I know 100% that that flag has been pulled multiple times before I played the hole. Just the act of pulling out the flag, over and over, will raise the cup which raises the soil, which raised the lip.

 

No, you don't know that.

 

The Rules give a few examples of "damage":

 

Quote

“Damage on the putting green ” means any damage caused by any person (including the player) or outside influence, such as:

• Ball marks, shoe damage (such as spike marks) and scrapes or indentations caused byequipment or a flagstick,

• Old hole plugs, turf plugs, seams of cut turf and scrapes or indentations from maintenance tools or vehicles,

• Animal tracks or hoof indentations, and

• Embedded objects (such as a stone, acorn, hail or tee) and indentations caused by them.

 

Now, a list in the Rules of Golf is often not exhaustive, but a lifting of the cup so gentle you can't even see that it's raised doesn't seem to rise to the level of "damage" like those examples. All of those are also visible or you wouldn't know they're there.

 

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

There is no requirement to SEE this damage in the Rules.

 

Where does it tell you that you're allowed to repair invisible things that only you can see but which you assume (not "know" as you keep wanting to believe) are there?

 

You have to know (by seeing) the damage, you can't assume.

 

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

We all know it’s there because that’s how physics works. 

 

No, it's not.

 

First, you can pull the flagstick out without pulling the cup upward. Happens all the time. Flagsticks aren't often jammed tight into the holes where I play, and I don't remember the last flagstick I pulled where I thought there was even a chance that the cup pulled up with it even 1mm. Even if it did, the cup can slide and would have to move a LOT of dirt to move the LIP of the putting green. The dirt isn't solid; it's… dirt. It's particles. They can compact, shift, break off… etc. Even the rare times a cup moves, there's no guarantee the lip is moved upward. At all.

 

Also, if you want to argue physics… you know what also happens when someone removes the flagstick? They put it back in, often with less care (like by dropping it in, or kind of shoving it in a little). Seems to me if you want to argue the physics, pushing or dropping the flagstick into the cup is going to do a lot (on this tiny relative scale) to push the cup DOWN farther, perhaps even pulling the lip down with it.

 

Thing is… you don't know that the lip is raised, and if you can't see it, you've got no reason whatsoever to go mucking around with the hole.

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

Show me the requirement, in the Rules, that the damage must be seen. 
 

 

Not everything is in the Rules, some things rely on common sense.

 

But do tell me, how do you know there is something to be repaired if you do not see it? And more important, how do you know you have repaired it as you cannot see the change?

 

You should see the absurdity yourself.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Just the act of pulling out the flag, over and over, will may raise the cup which raises the soil, which raised the lip. You can not see it.

So how do you know? Do you tamp down early in the day? Do you count the number of players ahead of you? Do you count the number of players who actually pulled the flagstick?

[Socrates]

I'm with @Augster.  I've played many a round where I'm in one of the 1st groups out and you can see that every cup has been poorly done.  I'm fixing every cup as I go along so that all that are behind me, aren't penalized because of a poorly done job.  I know it might be hard to believe, but there are many instances where you have to do what is right and the Rules be damned.  If P.J. Boatwright is going to come out of the grave and penalize me for doing that, I can live with that.

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

Show me the requirement, in the Rules, that the damage must be seen. 
 

If I’m playing later in the day, I know 100% that that flag has been pulled multiple times before I played the hole. Just the act of pulling out the flag, over and over, will raise the cup which raises the soil, which raised the lip. You can not see it. But the ball will certainly react to it if it’s moving slow enough. 
 

There is no requirement to SEE this damage in the Rules. We all know it’s there because that’s how physics works. Even if it’s raised less than 1mm, it’s still raised. It’s still damage. And tamping it down to level is still “restoring the putting green as nearly as possible to its original condition.” 
 

This was changed and argued in 2019. I’m actually really surprised this is a point of contention. The Ruling bodies INTENTIONALLY left out being able to see the damage because then they’d have to define ALL damage on the putting green. 
 

“If the lip of the cup is raised 1mm, you cannot tamp it down. If it’s raised between 2mm and 4mm, ask everyone in your group if they can see the damage also. If they can see it also, tamp it down. If they can’t, but you can, you are screwed. Get playing partners with better eyes.”

 

I remember this being in a memo sent out by the USGA, one of those picture things they do, in 2018 before the 2019 Rules came out. It’s actually quite strange to be arguing this in 2024, almost 6 years after the Rules were changed. 

 

You've really, really got the wrong end of the stick on this one. 😉

[mattt987]

9 hours ago, Augster said:

If I’m playing later in the day, I know 100% that that flag has been pulled multiple times before I played the hole. Just the act of pulling out the flag, over and over, will raise the cup which raises the soil, which raised the lip. You can not see it. But the ball will certainly react to it if it’s moving slow enough. 
 

 

 

 

What if several of the groups ahead of you also fixed this invisible damage, unbeknownst to you?

[596]

On 8/25/2024 at 7:11 PM, Augster said:

I Always tamp down the edges of the hole in the morning. It gets rid of the “volcano” ridges from the cup cutter being pulled out too fast and pulling up the edges. 

That won't happen if they use a cup setter.