Tamping down green imperfections

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I'm with @Augster.  I've played many a round where I'm in one of the 1st groups out and you can see that every cup has been poorly done.  I'm fixing every cup as I go along so that all that are behind me, aren't penalized because of a poorly done job. 

What about those in front of you though? Should they not expect the same conditions?

Edited August 27, 2024 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

I'm with @Augster.  I've played many a round where I'm in one of the 1st groups out and you can see that every cup has been poorly done.  I'm fixing every cup as I go along so that all that are behind me, aren't penalized because of a poorly done job.  I know it might be hard to believe, but there are many instances where you have to do what is right and the Rules be damned.  If P.J. Boatwright is going to come out of the grave and penalize me for doing that, I can live with that.

 

I can understand (not saying I accept it) your behavior but must ask, what else you believe you are allowed to correct on the course that YOU feel is not right?

 

Rule 1.1. Play the course as you find it.

 

You seem to disagree with that.

 

On my home course it is unfortunately not seldom a hole has been placed in a slope. Two weeks ago I measured slope of 3,8° at a hole. Any referee will immediately react to this. So, should I mark another place for the hole and play there as I do not accept that? Just asking...

[Socrates]

50 minutes ago, Newby said:

What about those in front of you though? Should they not expect the same conditions?

They are in charge of their own destiny.  Odds are they never even putted out.  It's usually just casual golfers and likely couldn't care.  Clearly, in tournament conditions, I'm doing nothing unless there is damage evident.

[Socrates]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I can understand (not saying I accept it) your behavior but must ask, what else you believe you are allowed to correct on the course that YOU feel is not right?

 

Rule 1.1. Play the course as you find it.

 

You seem to disagree with that.

 

On my home course it is unfortunately not seldom a hole has been placed in a slope. Two weeks ago I measured slope of 3,8° at a hole. Any referee will immediately react to this. So, should I mark another place for the hole and play there as I do not accept that? Just asking...

No need to be facetious.

 

If I'm playing something or in a competition, I'm playing it as I find it.  99% of my rounds are just casual golf and while I know the Rules, I'm way past the point of being that concerned about following the "letter of the law."  I'm there to play well if I can and enjoy myself.  If someone wants to play by the Rules (100%), I can do that too.  Just don't get mad if I call them on a Rule or enforce something.  Leave the course better than you found it.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Socrates

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

No need to be facetious.

 

If I'm playing something or in a competition, I'm playing it as I find it.  99% of my rounds are just casual golf and while I know the Rules, I'm way past the point of being that concerned about following the "letter of the law."  I'm there to play well if I can and enjoy myself.  If someone wants to play by the Rules (100%), I can do that too.  Just don't mad if I call them on a Rule or enforce something.  Leave the course better than you found it.

 

I had to google "facetious".

 

This is a Rules Forum and you Socrates are one of the most esteemed persons on this forum afa Rules are concerned. So I find your response pathetic.

 

First you say that you tap down the edges of a hole and let everybody understand that it is ok by the RoG. The next thing you say is that you play 99% casual rounds and do not really follow the Rules on them (which is absolutely ok).

 

IMO you did not do very well this time. Maybe you want to polish your statement..?

[nsxguy]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I had to google "facetious".

 

This is a Rules Forum and you Socrates are one of the most esteemed persons on this forum afa Rules are concerned. So I find your response pathetic.

 

[snip]

 

IMO you did not do very well this time. Maybe you want to polish your statement..?

 

Maybe you'd like to polish yours ? And Google "tact" ?

 

I think you just broke the Tact-ometer

 

Edited August 27, 2024 by nsxguy

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

They are in charge of their own destiny.  

You said  "I'm fixing every cup as I go along so that all that are behind me, aren't penalized" 

Hardly in charge of their own destiny if you are fixing the course for them. May be their handicaps could be affected by their scores or they were playing a match and they did care.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Newby

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I had to google "facetious".

 

This is a Rules Forum and you Socrates are one of the most esteemed persons on this forum afa Rules are concerned. So I find your response pathetic.

 

First you say that you tap down the edges of a hole and let everybody understand that it is ok by the RoG. The next thing you say is that you play 99% casual rounds and do not really follow the Rules on them (which is absolutely ok).

 

IMO you did not do very well this time. Maybe you want to polish your statement..?

Not pathetic, just realistic.  I don't golf in a world where one can expect that the grounds crew is perfect or even decent.  If I can make a situation right and fix it, I will.  Even if that means flattening the edges of hole so it is better for all those behind me.  Don't confuse my actions for being blasé about Rules.  

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

You said  "I'm fixing every cup as I go along so that all that are behind me, aren't penalized" 

Hardly in charge of their own destiny if you are fixing the course for them. May be their handicaps could be affected by their scores or they were playing a match and they did care.

I see this as no different than raking an un-raked bunker.  Or fixing ball marks or divots.  Or should I ignore those too and tough cookies for anyone behind me who gets into one of those situations?  

 

I play a lot of public golf courses and a vast majority of the players could care less about handicaps or playing a match.  Heck, they likely don't have a clue what either one is.  They just would like to have decent conditions for their round (and a beer cart).  You may not like it, but I will do what I can to leave it better for those behind me.

[david.c.w]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Maybe you'd like to polish yours ? And Google "tact" ?

 

I think you just broke the Tact-ometer

 

 

Neither demure nor mindful. 

[Augster]

So what you folks seem to think is I can’t repair “damage” unless I can see it, even if the Rules do not require that.  Said differently, I have to SEE the damage around the cup instead of just tamping everything down out of “habit”. Is that correct?
 

It’s a good thing I have great vision and can see that raised lip, every time I’m out. 🙂 

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, Augster said:

 

It’s a good thing I have great vision and can see that raised lip, every time I’m out. 🙂 

Can you really distinguish between 0.0 mm, 1.0 mm and 1.5 mm from 5' or 6' in the air?

[Socrates]

I had a nice reply typed out and then WRX went offline for a bit...

 

Let me just state that while there are Rules to this game, it is just a game and sometimes people get all wound up about the exactitude of the Rules and forget about the humanity of the game.  We are just custodians of the game and the golf course.  Doing what is right by others is very often a better choice.  

[sui generis]

R13.1 tells us:

 

But if the player improves the putting green by taking actions that exceed what is reasonable to restore the putting green to its original condition (such as by creating a pathway to the hole  or by using an object that is not allowed), the player gets the general penalty for breach of Rule 8.1a.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=13&subrulenum=1

 

If I'm on the committee and I see a player repairing invisible damage around the hole, we'll talk about it. My parting words, said with a smile, are likely to be, "Don't let me see you doing that again."

[Nickb333]

Wow. 

[antip]

More grist for the mill. This is from the best rules column in the private golf media - and on my understanding, they clear their lines with the USGA before publication.

 

RULES GUY: TAMPING AROUND HOLE PERMITTED? June 2022

"This morning, a gentleman in our foursome made a habit of tamping down rather forcefully around the hole with his putter (always in his line of putt, naturally). When I question this “gardening,” he claimed the greenskeepers weren’t doing their job properly when they changed holes. I happen to know better, since I am one of those greenskeepers. What rule should I quote
— Bob Keifling, Seibring, Fla.

Clearly, you are the gentleman since you chose to take the high route rather than tamp forcefully around this clod’s noggin!

Next time, let the rules do that for you. Players may repair “damage” to the putting green, which includes the hole and the area around it, even if doing so improves the line of play. But (!) normal maintenance practices, natural wear and natural surface imperfections are not damage as defined by Rule 13.1c(2) and may not be repaired.

If his tamping alters the ground and improves a condition affecting the stroke, such as line of play, then Rule 8.1a applies, and he gets the general penalty of two strokes in stroke play and loss of hole in match play. Now who’s not doing his job properly?"

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, antip said:

More grist for the mill. This is from the best rules column in the private golf media - and on my understanding, they clear their lines with the USGA before publication.

 

RULES GUY: TAMPING AROUND HOLE PERMITTED? June 2022

"This morning, a gentleman in our foursome made a habit of tamping down rather forcefully around the hole with his putter (always in his line of putt, naturally). When I question this “gardening,” he claimed the greenskeepers weren’t doing their job properly when they changed holes. I happen to know better, since I am one of those greenskeepers. What rule should I quote
— Bob Keifling, Seibring, Fla.

Clearly, you are the gentleman since you chose to take the high route rather than tamp forcefully around this clod’s noggin!

Next time, let the rules do that for you. Players may repair “damage” to the putting green, which includes the hole and the area around it, even if doing so improves the line of play. But (!) normal maintenance practices, natural wear and natural surface imperfections are not damage as defined by Rule 13.1c(2) and may not be repaired.

If his tamping alters the ground and improves a condition affecting the stroke, such as line of play, then Rule 8.1a applies, and he gets the general penalty of two strokes in stroke play and loss of hole in match play. Now who’s not doing his job properly?"

As is often the case in the Rules forum, we’ve all pointed out various things to some people (is it even plural?) here and have said in no uncertain terms that their interpretation is incorrect and you can’t just go doing things based on assumptions, but rather than learn and admit, they double down and continue to push forward.

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, Augster said:

So what you folks seem to think is I can’t repair “damage” unless I can see it, even if the Rules do not require that.  Said differently, I have to SEE the damage around the cup instead of just tamping everything down out of “habit”. Is that correct?

 

Yes. Preferebly other players in your group see the damage as well BEFORE you tamp everything down.

 

And IMHO Rules DO require a damage to be seen. Rules allow you to repair damage but that needs to exist before you can repair it. An invisible damage does not exist.

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, Socrates said:

I had a nice reply typed out and then WRX went offline for a bit...

 

Let me just state that while there are Rules to this game, it is just a game and sometimes people get all wound up about the exactitude of the Rules and forget about the humanity of the game.  We are just custodians of the game and the golf course.  Doing what is right by others is very often a better choice.  

 

In a competition or playing a handicap round that is never a better choice if it is against the Rules. On a social round of golf you may do whatever you feel right.

 

Btw, who defines what is "right" ? Right by whose standards?

[Socrates]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

In a competition or playing a handicap round that is never a better choice if it is against the Rules. On a social round of golf you may do whatever you feel right.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Btw, who defines what is "right" ? Right by whose standards?

It has to be egregious for me to do anything about it.  But at 7am and the holes have just been cut, it's not hard to see when a poor job has been done.  Thankfully it is less and less common. 

[Dpavs]

On 8/26/2024 at 12:46 PM, sui generis said:

Ref, "What's going on here?"

 

Player, "I'm repairing the hole, because it may be raised."

 

Ref, "Show me."

 

Player, "Well, you can't see it, but it must be raised."

 

Ref, "Don't let me see you doing that again."

 

Player, "Right, gotcha. Hey, look over there. It's Elvis!"

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

 

Player, "Right, gotcha. Hey, look over there. It's Elvis!"

 

Sounds like a lot of posters around here.