From no Handicap to Plus - The Journey (for an over 50 yr old)

[vegasandre]

An outlier question.
want to know what others think is possible/needed for a situation like this. 
obviously -near impossible to statistically impossible for the average golfer. 
it could and has occurred a lot amongst talented juniors in short periods of time (under 5 years)

So - I will throw in some prerequisites: 
subject is/has:

• Athletic
• Extreme swing speeds for his age
• Played in less than 150 rounds lifetime
• Started playing at 18. 
• Played off and on for 15 or so years then went cold turkey for 25.
• Now has the time and dedication needed. 
• Loves analyzing golf swings
• hasn't played in past 25 yrs really (yet...)
• healthy
• Has shot in the 70s often on good days way back when (the 90's-2000)

 

 

If possible ..how long will it take (playing from back tees only)?
How many lessons and how much practice will be needed? 
How many rounds will be needed? 

Is it a fools errand?

perhaps...


EDIT/DISCLAIMER 01/12/2025:  I started this thread mainly for myself to put my goals in writing.  If you have written goals that are public (whatever they may be in life  ) The chance of accomplishment is 10-100 x greater than not having written goals or goals that only you know about.  With that in mind I started this thread/journey..
Also- there is an entertainment aspect to it.  I do have a sarcastic/weird/Jersey kind of personality - with a history in competitive events (in any sport or even scrabble) of wearing my emotions on my sleeve (except Poker)  -no matter how non- PC / "proper etiquette" they may be.  I understand that could rub some the wrong way as well as maybe not be the best example of sportsmanship for kids and others ..
I hide nothing.  But like golf, I am also working on that side of things to bring the temperature down a few notches. 
Bring your poker face to the golf course...
We are all different and have personal things that we can all improve on in life/golf/everything....   Please don't be offended by some of my tangents and possibly too much Alpha -for my own good- ramblings.. , but feel free to post whatever and have fun!








 

Edited January 16 by vegasandre

[mmoran]

If it's gonna happen, within a year and a half.  But my wager would be against.

[Pepperturbo]

8 minutes ago, vegasandre said:

An outlier question.
want to know what others think is possible/needed for a situation like this. 
obviously -near impossible to statistically impossible for the average golfer. 
it could and has occurred a lot amongst talented juniors in short periods of time (under 5 years)

So - I will throw in some prerequisites: 
subject is/has:

• Athletic
• Extreme swing speeds for his age
• Played in less than 150 rounds lifetime
• Started playing at 18. 
• Played off and on for 15 or so years then went cold turkey for 25.
• Now has the time and dedication needed. 
• Loves analyzing golf swings
• hasn't played in past 25 yrs really (yet...)
• healthy
• Has shot in the 70s often on good days way back when (the 90's-2000)

 

 

If it is possible ..how long will it take (playing from back tees only)
How many lessons and how much practice will be needed? 
How many rounds will be needed? 

it it a fools errand?

perhaps...
 

Anything is possible.  All depends on your available time, resources, and willingness to tackle a difficult practice regime and stick with it, regardless, until you reach scratch.  Reaching "+" is more of a crap shoot.

 

It took me six years, starting at 40, to reach an index of 2, with a low round of 68.  Would have been scratch but getting married and being an instant dad redirected my focus.  When I was 40, my college buddies who played college golf, said reaching single digit at my age, was impossible.  Each of them quit playing in their late 50s early 60s.

[kiawah]

With a good attitude and dedication/work ethic, it is totally possible, but it will be very difficult. You will have to use your time very wisely. The only thing that I can say for sure: there is no such thing as a set timetable when it comes to this game. I'd bet it will take longer if the player has a poor attitude, low patience, and lacks course management skills. It would be really difficult. I am barely in the plus, and I played in college and make time to play, practice, and see my coach regularly. But I am of the mind that anyone can do it if they believe that they can and then can determine the steps they NEED to take to get closer to their goals. The qualities this person going from no HCP to plus HCP would want to have are:

 

Patient

Positive

Humble/ego-less/able to put expectations aside

Enjoys the game to the point where they don't need to play well to have fun/get something out of playing golf

Curious about golf insofar as they see playing/practicing as an opportunity to learn more about their game

Tough enough to deal with the low points along the way

Able to overcome the "boringness" of repetitive practice

Detail-oriented

NOT a perfectionist

 

The path to being plus is non-linear and challenging. There will be difficult times and instances where you feel dejected, embarrassed, and/or exasperated. That is the norm of this game and getting better at it. Everyone who has made it to the plus side has had these moments and decided to believe in themselves and keep pushing forward. For me, it was really hard, and there were times when I did not think it would ever happen.  It is tough sledding for sure, but it is certainly doable if you are willing and able to put aside 45 minutes to an hour as many days per week as possible to practice and get on the course at every opportunity.

 

To answer your original question, it's only a fool's errand if the only acceptable outcome is that you have a plus handicap. If it does happen, it will be because of good work done on a regular basis that compounds itself gradually. It will not happen overnight. Those who mostly try to enjoy the journey and learn as much as they can seem to get there the fastest. 

 

[vegasandre]

4 hours ago, kiawah said:

With a good attitude and dedication/work ethic, it is totally possible, but it will be very difficult. You will have to use your time very wisely. The only thing that I can say for sure: there is no such thing as a set timetable when it comes to this game. I'd bet it will take longer if the player has a poor attitude, low patience, and lacks course management skills. It would be really difficult. I am barely in the plus, and I played in college and make time to play, practice, and see my coach regularly. But I am of the mind that anyone can do it if they believe that they can and then can determine the steps they NEED to take to get closer to their goals. The qualities this person going from no HCP to plus HCP would want to have are:

 

Patient

Positive

Humble/ego-less/able to put expectations aside

Enjoys the game to the point where they don't need to play well to have fun/get something out of playing golf

Curious about golf insofar as they see playing/practicing as an opportunity to learn more about their game

Tough enough to deal with the low points along the way

Able to overcome the "boringness" of repetitive practice

Detail-oriented

NOT a perfectionist

 

The path to being plus is non-linear and challenging. There will be difficult times and instances where you feel dejected, embarrassed, and/or exasperated. That is the norm of this game and getting better at it. Everyone who has made it to the plus side has had these moments and decided to believe in themselves and keep pushing forward. For me, it was really hard, and there were times when I did not think it would ever happen.  It is tough sledding for sure, but it is certainly doable if you are willing and able to put aside 45 minutes to an hour as many days per week as possible to practice and get on the course at every opportunity.

 

To answer your original question, it's only a fool's errand if the only acceptable outcome is that you have a plus handicap. If it does happen, it will be because of good work done on a regular basis that compounds itself gradually. It will not happen overnight. Those who mostly try to enjoy the journey and learn as much as they can seem to get there the fastest. 

 

 

"Patient

Positive

Humble/ego-less/able to put expectations aside

Enjoys the game to the point where they don't need to play well to have fun/get something out of playing golf

Curious about golf insofar as they see playing/practicing as an opportunity to learn more about their game

Tough enough to deal with the low points along the way

Able to overcome the "boringness" of repetitive practice

Detail-oriented

NOT a perfectionist"

 

 

 

well said.

I  do remember a Meatloaf song from back in the day..

"don't be sad because 5 or 6 out of 8 ain't bad"... LOL

 

there is a 🏆 on the mantle for most talented and longest club thrower.

 

that part needs most work. 

 

Edited August 27, 2024 by vegasandre

[Shilgy]

41 minutes ago, vegasandre said:

 

well said.

I  do remember a Meatloaf song from back in the day..

"don't be sad because 5 or 6 out of 8 ain't bad"

 

there is a 🏆 on the mantle for most talented and longest club thrower.

 

that part needs most work. 

 

🧐 did I miss a joke? Perhaps.  The song was “2 out of 3 ain’t bad”

 

op….it can be done.  Just will need to practice…especially short game….and I strongly suggest you play as often as possible with the best players that will have you.  And pay attention to both what they do and don’t do on the course in managing their game.

[Hawkeye77]

33 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

🧐 did I miss a joke? Perhaps.  The song was “2 out of 3 ain’t bad”

 

op….it can be done.  Just will need to practice…especially short game….and I strongly suggest you play as often as possible with the best players that will have you.  And pay attention to both what they do and don’t do on the course in managing their game.

Haha, he must have been thinking of “Pair Of Dice By The Dashboard Light”. 
 

To the OP - nobody knows enough about you, your game, or your swing to say. It is definitely possible. 
 

I encourage you to try. 

Edited August 27, 2024 by Hawkeye77

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Haha, he must have been thinking of “Pair Of Dice By The Dashboard Light”. 
 

To the OP - nobody knows enough about you, your game, or your swing to say. It is definitely possible. 
 

I encourage you to try. 

Wrong song as well.  I see nothing close to that .  Not that I needed to see the lyrics but didn’t think you guys wanted me to sing it for you!🤣

 

https://genius.com/Meat-loaf-paradise-by-the-dashboard-light-lyrics

[Hawkeye77]

35 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Wrong song as well.  I see nothing close to that .  Not that I needed to see the lyrics but didn’t think you guys wanted me to sing it for you!🤣

 

https://genius.com/Meat-loaf-paradise-by-the-dashboard-light-lyrics

 

Yes, I was joking!

[PuffyC]

If you shot in the 70s before you’re already well ahead of the game. The wildcard you didn’t mention was how naturally athletic you are. A former pro hockey or baseball player doing it is completely different than the guy who had to hustle to make the JV soccer team.

 

If I had to guess I’d say it’s possible but it would have to become your life. If you’re willing to practice 4 days a week, take a lesson at least once a week, and play 2 to 3 days a week for 52 weeks a year I’d guess you could maybe do it in a couple years. But it’s just that - a guess. It’s always possible you could put in the work and still be an 8 many years later. Time is not your friend at that age.

[vegasandre]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

🧐 did I miss a joke? Perhaps.  The song was “2 out of 3 ain’t bad”

 

op….it can be done.  Just will need to practice…especially short game….and I strongly suggest you play as often as possible with the best players that will have you.  And pay attention to both what they do and don’t do on the course in managing their game.

Yes, it was a play on word joke based on Kiawah list of 8 things needed (an awesome list BTW)

[PJE]

5 hours ago, kiawah said:

The path to being plus is non-linear and challenging.

This is the absolute truth. 
Lots of people get better at golf via dedicated practice but only to a certain point.
 Even elite golfers’ abilities reach a plateau and moving past that plateau does not always occur.
You may or may not achieve your goal but good luck. 

[vegasandre]

14 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

If you shot in the 70s before you’re already well ahead of the game. The wildcard you didn’t mention was how naturally athletic you are. A former pro hockey or baseball player doing it is completely different than the guy who had to hustle to make the JV soccer team.

 

If I had to guess I’d say it’s possible but it would have to become your life. If you’re willing to practice 4 days a week, take a lesson at least once a week, and play 2 to 3 days a week for 52 weeks a year I’d guess you could maybe do it in a couple years. But it’s just that - a guess. It’s always possible you could put in the work and still be an 8 many years later. Time is not your friend at that age.

 

Already going against one of the items on Kiawah's list. ( Humble/ego-less)
but here it goes because you asked (no haters please)..lol
Athletic:  weird strength(deadlift 465 at CF-shooting for 5 bills..) and upper level hand eye coordination.
Swing speed is an easy 120 not trying. Driving distance is well over 300- if needed(no clue where its going - bad shots are hook)  - 5i 215-220 etc.. (I know where that one is going straight with a little draw)
Used to be Bowler (left handed) and average over 215/220 with many 300's and a couple 800's in the 80's and 90's   . Interestingly enough, I have been cold turkey on that sport also for 25 years. (never liked it much). Used to like to hang with friends in the alleys in Jersey...and gamble.
However bowling is easy.  Golf is similar in many ways (body movements/form/timing- I play golf RH) except it has 1000x variables- and is a mind screw. 

1st lesson with Monte live on Friday.   I may have to pay him more when he hears this BS . lol

I am going for 2 years on this.  I am 57 now. 

 

[Avidswampthing66]

It's very possibly if the time and effort are put in.   Coaching is crucial.  Extremely important to have a tidy short game if you want to get to + cap.  

 

Edited August 28, 2024 by Avidswampthing66

[mosesgolf]

Absolutely doable with time and dedication.  Be relatively long and accurate off the tee, work on short game and putting.   Easy peezy imo.

[jvincent]

20 hours ago, vegasandre said:

subject is/has:

• Athletic
• Extreme swing speeds for his age
• .... Snipped ....
• Has shot in the 70s often on good days way back when (the 90's-2000)

 

Based on these parameters, definitely possible. 

 

Being able to hit it long and reasonably straight off the tee makes getting to scratch or better infinitely easier than if you are dinking it out there.

 

As you probably know the closer you get to scratch or better the harder it becomes to shave strokes. Once you are in the low singles (3 or better) it transitions from being a power game to a finesse game. Fewer mistakes, getting up and down when you do make a mistake, etc.

 

Good luck.

[vegasandre]

1 hour ago, jvincent said:

 

Based on these parameters, definitely possible. 

 

Being able to hit it long and reasonably straight off the tee makes getting to scratch or better infinitely easier than if you are dinking it out there.

 

As you probably know the closer you get to scratch or better the harder it becomes to shave strokes. Once you are in the low singles (3 or better) it transitions from being a power game to a finesse game. Fewer mistakes, getting up and down when you do make a mistake, etc.

 

Good luck.

Thank you Everyone.   
It is interesting that on other threads here you always hear how "impossible" things are and that golf is super hard (it kind of is)
the positives shown here give me increased determination. 
I am putting together a plan to make this happen. 
will keep the updates up for funs sake and ask for some help every now and then. 

[david.c.w]

Honestly I think it is impossible.  Can you get to a 2 or 3?  Probably.  Exponentially harder the closer you get to 0.0.

 

I think a lot depends on the home course where you are grinding day after day after day after day.  What is the rating from the back tees?   

 

I am right now at a 3.3.  Low all time is 3.1.   Playing the most, best, smartest golf of my life.  Have shot under par twice in the past 35 years.  My buddy grew up playing junior stuff and never took time off from golf.  We turned 50 this year.  He sold his company 8 years ago and plays 175 rounds a year, has a coach, and a trackman in the house.  He got to a 1 but now bounces between 3 and 5.  Natural athlete and golfer.

 

Golf is hard.  

 

 

[MtlJeff]

Getting to be a consistent and genuine tournament-type + index is very hard. The person you describe i would imagine would have no problem becoming a mid-single digit fairly quickly if they put in the time and played a lot , 2-3 years even to be like a 5-6 index? Sure. If you're hitting balls multiple times a week and playing 2-3 rounds. You already have a baseline ability even from several years ago, but in some sense it comes back to you fast (i haven't shot a basketball in 20 years but put me on a court and after 20-30 mins i'll be hitting 3s at a good clip again)

 

But getting from 3-6 range---to a genuine + cap is a whole different level. Some people just don't get there . Not that being a 3 index is bad, it's really good. But there's no guarantee you'll ever get to +

 

I am competitive, tournament tested +1 index right now. I have played well in some of the biggest Quebec AM tournaments. I'm 43 and have been playing for 22 years. This is my backround for reference

-College Football 

-College Basketball

-Started on Provincial (State) soccer team at Canadian Nationals as a teenager

-Nationally ranked Squash player as a teenager

 

And it took me 20 years of playing regularly to become a competitive +

 

I have friends that are retired NHL players in their 40s and play almost every day that aren't below 3 caps. 

 

So i would say in general---getting to 3-6 ...yes for sure. 

 

Getting to + .....maybe it could be done but there's a better chance it just never happens

[MtlJeff]

Another comment i'll make....And i realize i don't come from a golf hotbed, and our weather sucks 5 months a year so it's tougher to get better here. 

 

But i probably know a good 30-40 or more "+" indexes well or somewhat well just due to seeing them in various comps. They are overwhelmingly part of the below 3 groups

-Junior or college kids

-Former elite juniors or college kids in the 22-26yrs old range

-Guys who are ~55 who've been playing their whole lives, and their kids are older now

 

In a recent mid-am tournament i played in, the top 16 guys who made the match play (all + types) , more than half the field was 25-26yr olds who just became eligible.

 

I don't know many guys who even started after college that became competitive + guys --though it for sure does happen. The guy i lost my match to in the event in question was a former college baseball player who was about 30. It's probably very rare to have two + guys in an event like that who both started after the age of 22

 

Obviously OP played when he was younger, but man starting up again at 50+ ...it's gonna be tough to get THAT low

[otto6457]

I'll be the naysayer here and say no.....it's not going to happen.

 

However, I think it would make a brilliant 18 month video series.  I would definitely watch it.  But the best part of doing a video series is that it would require you to work on your game every day in order to have content.  And the pressure of HAVING to upload content solves the motivation problem that will inevitably come when your game is not where you think it should be.  Also the pressure of all the competitions you are going to need to play to establish a legitimate + handicap is great content.

 

You will either succeed or you won't.  But either way the journey will be documented and I bet you will wind up being a much better player than you are right now.

 

Heck, you could wind up making quite a bit of money along the way.

[nsxguy]

22 hours ago, vegasandre said:

• Now has the time and dedication needed. 

 

Given all the rest, THIS would likely be the most important factor - and something you probably can't know at this point.

 

Good luck. 👍

[vegasandre]

50 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

Honestly I think it is impossible.  Can you get to a 2 or 3?  Probably.  Exponentially harder the closer you get to 0.0.

 

I think a lot depends on the home course where you are grinding day after day after day after day.  What is the rating from the back tees?   

 

I am right now at a 3.3.  Low all time is 3.1.   Playing the most, best, smartest golf of my life.  Have shot under par twice in the past 35 years.  My buddy grew up playing junior stuff and never took time off from golf.  We turned 50 this year.  He sold his company 8 years ago and plays 175 rounds a year, has a coach, and a trackman in the house.  He got to a 1 but now bounces between 3 and 5.  Natural athlete and golfer.

 

Golf is hard.  

 

 

thank you for the reply. common sense would agree with you.  I do tell my wife that I have a doctoral degree in common sense . 
but in this case... maybe not. 
I do not have a home course as I do not play at all (like literally zero). I am in San diego now and trying to get wife to move to Jupiter where I do real estate stuff.  
I have only played 140 ish round lifetme (and that is rounded high). I know its not going to be an easy road. 
Figure I will start playing on a course next month. 

[vegasandre]

32 minutes ago, otto6457 said:

I'll be the naysayer here and say no.....it's not going to happen.

 

However, I think it would make a brilliant 18 month video series.  I would definitely watch it.  But the best part of doing a video series is that it would require you to work on your game every day in order to have content.  And the pressure of HAVING to upload content solves the motivation problem that will inevitably come when your game is not where you think it should be.  Also the pressure of all the competitions you are going to need to play to establish a legitimate + handicap is great content.

 

You will either succeed or you won't.  But either way the journey will be documented and I bet you will wind up being a much better player than you are right now.

 

Heck, you could wind up making quite a bit of money along the way.

 

I have really considered the video youtube thing. 
I love watching them but l truly loathe filming, making and editing them (used to make some san diego long range fishing videos).
Now if I was super loaded (I am not) then I would definitely hire someone to do this task much like the Bryan bros, Good Good, Grants, Micah, Brysons of the world now do.
I know that Jerome kid (scratch to scratch on yt-that I also see at times in San Diego  at the range) quit his job  and is young AF and going this route and it seems to be paying off. 
just dont want to do that.. yet.  not sure how many want to see "old dudes " on YT
I am going to do it (the +part).  Yoda says there is no "try"  only do.

One of the reasons I think it's a shot is because of length and speed.  How many 57 year olds in the world (not in a long drive compeption) swing 100 mph 5i  ? IDK but its a handful 
the biggest issue will be 2 things:
the  mental game ( awesome club thrower in the past I could hit a lake at 200 yards)
short game(non putting ) Never had a lesson and it is difficult for me to be soft when I always want to bench 300 even when walking down the street . Past 3 months going hardcore into Dan Grieves to really soften things up.  working so far but long way off still. 
will post a game plan soon. 


 

Edited August 28, 2024 by vegasandre

[ShortGolfer]

Maybe you should work on short and mental game first, while working on flexibility and conditioning for the long game.

Idea is to figure out your upside potential while minimizing the chance for injuries.

[Guest RobS]

Less than 15% of the American golf population has an official USGA handicap.  Less than 2% of those with official handicaps carry a plus index.  It's difficult to maintain a plus index into your 50's let alone reach plus for the first time for a good, experienced over 50 player.  I'd argue that it's much easier to drop from a 20 to a 2 index than it is to drop from a 2 index to a legit, tournament tested, +2.  The margins for am's are slim for under par golf.  With that being said, it would be a fun pursuit and I'd say go for it so long as it doesn't negatively impact other important areas of your life.

[nvr3putt]

To quote Paul Pierce, "Anything is possible~~~~!"

 

That being said, I think the toughest obstacles will be the mental game and putting.

God speed!

[jvincent]

13 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

Maybe you should work on short and mental game first, while working on flexibility and conditioning for the long game.

Idea is to figure out your upside potential while minimizing the chance for injuries.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

The math has debunked this myth. Work on tee to green first. To get to scratch you need to be on or near the green all the time to have a chance.

 

No amount of short game is getting you to scratch is you aren't very good tee to green.

[nvr3putt]

9 hours ago, jvincent said:

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

The math has debunked this myth. Work on tee to green first. To get to scratch you need to be on or near the green all the time to have a chance.

 

No amount of short game is getting you to scratch is you aren't very good tee to green.

I would argue that out of all types of shots, chipping and putting are the most difficult to master especially at the level of a +hdcp.

For lower skilled players, the SG stats may agree with you only because >90% of amateurs have fundamentally incorrect golf swings.

 

[AzRoger]

To get at that level would take a serious commitment and some very good natural athletic ability. Think college golfers who have good coaching and spend hours a day practicing. Need to set more realistic goals and in stages.