Preferred Lies????

[denkea]

Prefered lies are in place.  Player moves his ball with the toe of his club  in the closely mown area instead of marking and placing.  Is there a penalty there????

[davep043]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Prefered lies are in place.  Player moves his ball with the toe of his club  in the closely mown area instead of marking and placing.  Is there a penalty there????

Read the appropriate Model Local Rule, E-3, which says in part:

"In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e. "

The referenced procedure for placing the ball requires:

"(2) How Ball Must Be Replaced. The ball must be replaced by setting it down by hand on the required spot and letting it go so that it stays on that spot."

So the short answer is NO, the player must PLACE the ball properly.  If the ball is played after being placed in a wrong way, there's 1 Penalty Stroke applied.

However, there is no requirement to mark its location before lifting it.  That's consistent, any time you are putting the ball into play at a different location you're not required to mark its original location.  Its only when you're required to replace the ball on its original location that you're required to mark that original location before lifting it.

 

And of course if we're honest, many times we'll just see the rule expressed as "Use preferred lies today" without referencing the MLR.  That's a poor (lazy) job by whoever is running that competition.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2024 by davep043

[Mr. Bean]

Dave has explained how it should be.

 

Unfortunately reality is often something else and the Local Rule may have been written in a hundred different ways and THAT is what applies on THAT course. So if in the LR of THAT course does not specify how the ball must be placed then moving the ball with a club is ok. Unfortunately.

 

In ideal world there would only be one wording, but...

[Augster]

All of this is correct. A lot of guys will just say, “Are we rolling it today?” As that’s exactly what they are going to do. 
 

So, in the OP’s case, one would need to have the MLR in place, as written, to try to assess any penalties for rolling it instead of LCP. Just saying, “We are using preferred lies today” is too vague. 

[antip]

A club can say it very briefly though and have it apply fully: "Model Local Rule E-3, preferred lies (1 club-length/card length/6 inches/20cm etc) is in place."
I have zero sympathy for golfers that do not make themselves familiar with its requirements and are surprised by any penalties. That is a very effective way to learn according to Tom Watson, one of the finest golfers of any era.
As noted above, no requirement to mark, but it is a good idea to do so, especially if the available distance is short or you are intending to use it as fully as possible. 
 

Edited September 26, 2024 by antip

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, antip said:

As noted above, no requirement to mark, but it is a good idea to do so, especially if 
 

 

players are seniors (like me) and may very well forget where they picked up their ball from 🤣

[antip]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

players are seniors (like me) and may very well forget where they picked up their ball from 🤣

Or even wondering what they are doing on a golf course.

[Newby]

56 minutes ago, antip said:

Or even wondering what they are doing on a golf course.

I sometimes wonder but it's nothing to do with my memory.

[denkea]

19 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Dave has explained how it should be.

 

Unfortunately reality is often something else and the Local Rule may have been written in a hundred different ways and THAT is what applies on THAT course. So if in the LR of THAT course does not specify how the ball must be placed then moving the ball with a club is ok. Unfortunately.

 

In ideal world there would only be one wording, but...

Bear with me here trying to understand.  Are you saying that a committee may make/change the Model Local Rules any way they want to?  

So if a committee says lift/clean/place in the general area (rather than closely mown) that is OK?   Curious here.  

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, denkea said:

Bear with me here trying to understand.  Are you saying that a committee may make/change the Model Local Rules any way they want to?  

So if a committee says lift/clean/place in the general area (rather than closely mown) that is OK?   Curious here.  

The Committee certainly can allow E-3 to apply to the General Area,  but the narrative to the rule recommends against that.

Quote

The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees).

 But there ARE limitations on what the Committee is authorized to do with Local Rules.   If you really want to understand the limitations on the Committee, you should read the introduction to Section 8 in Committee Procedures in the Rules.  

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The Committee certainly can allow E-3 to apply to the General Area,  but the narrative to the rule recommends against that.

 But there ARE limitations on what the Committee is authorized to do with Local Rules.   If you really want to understand the limitations on the Committee, you should read the introduction to Section 8 in Committee Procedures in the Rules.  

And here's a link to Section 8:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

[Imp]

Understanding the rule, completely, and trying to gain further education (past history that I don't know)...  what's the *advantage gained* by using just the club and not your hands, looking beyond "the rule says you can't"?

Edited September 27, 2024 by Imp

[rogolf]

21 minutes ago, Imp said:

Understanding the rule, completely, and trying to gain further education (past history that I don't know)...  what's the *advantage gained* by using just the club and not your hands, looking beyond "the rule says you can't"?

Probably no advantage gained by using the club.  In fact, it's probably a disadvantage compared to using your hand.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, denkea said:

Bear with me here trying to understand.  Are you saying that a committee may make/change the Model Local Rules any way they want to?  

So if a committee says lift/clean/place in the general area (rather than closely mown) that is OK?   Curious here.  

 

Unfortunately that is how things go. Aspointed out by others the Committee has certain responsibilities and authority but many ot those fall under class "should". Thus if a Committee drafts a Local Rule that has not been authorized by the Ruling Bodies it can only affect to handicap calculations, nothing else.

 

For example, some clubs in my country organize special club competitions with various features having very little to do with Rules of Golf. I have heard of competitions where you have 3 strokes you may take by throwing the ball, or holes played with tennis ball or with a rake and a golf ball.

 

Afa LC&P in the GA is concerned, you have got the answer for that.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

Probably no advantage gained by using the club.  In fact, it's probably a disadvantage compared to using your hand.

 

Well...

 

Some hours ago I discussed with a friend of mine about just that. Rolling the ball with your club gives you some information about the terrain and lets you to find a good place for your next shot. Besides, when rolling the ball with your club it is not easy to say when the ball has been finally replaced and that gives some leeway to the player as well.

[antip]

11 hours ago, Newby said:

I sometimes wonder but it's nothing to do with my memory.

I'm past that kind of wondering. When the golfing gods conspire to make your efforts look exceedingly feeble and unsophisticated, I try to remember it's just a little physical movement outdoors so can't be all bad, right????

[antip]

7 hours ago, Imp said:

Understanding the rule, completely, and trying to gain further education (past history that I don't know)...  what's the *advantage gained* by using just the club and not your hands, looking beyond "the rule says you can't"?

IMO, our current (2019 introduced) arrangements seek to create a system/process that enables a single, clear approach to every place/replace situation that is most clearly able to be applied consistently and accurately, with maximum consistency/interoperability with the rest of the rules and independently verifiable.

This principle guided a number of the 2019 reforms.

 

In many place/replace scenarios, where the spot is marked for example (precisely known), there seems to be no harm in permitting approaches like noodling the ball into place with a club. But in a situation like preferred lies it could create issues - it is no longer a discrete, observable process with a clear start and finish - which particular noodle means the ball is in play and therefore can no longer be touched without breaching another rule? What is to stop the player deciding when taking stance 'oh, that spot is not as good as a bit further over, I'll just noodle it a bit more'? Some may say 'who cares?', but that is not what preferred lies is intended to permit - you choose your spot once only.

 

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, antip said:

but that is not what preferred lies is intended to permit - you choose your spot once only.

 

In other words, the term "preferred lies" is not to be construed as if there were many lies you may test before choosing the one that you prefer but there are many lies that can be chosen from. It is like a candy store. You may look at the candies but you may not taste them before having made your decision and purchased the preferred one 😁

[Imp]

On 9/27/2024 at 8:48 PM, antip said:

but that is not what preferred lies is intended to permit - you choose your spot once only.

 

Oh, I like that phrasing. Thanks.