Relief From Cart Path - Second Obstruction

[rzitup]

Trying to understand the determination of "nearest point of relief" from a cart path, if something else is in the way.  

Hole 5, par 4.  From the below overhead view of the hole, approach shot runs top to bottom, green at the bottom of the picture.  

There is an interior fence, that starts near the tee box of the 3rd hole, and runs down to where it turns into an OB/boundry fence.  This interior fence, via local rule, allows for free relief;

 

 

 

Pulled approach shot bounces down the path and comes to rest on the outside of the interior fence, in a small strip of grass (see fence pic below).  

Player approaches, and wants to take relief from the cart path (right handed, standing on path).  

In order to determine nearest point of relief, player would need to straddle the interior fence, which is impossible.  Is the nearest point of relief determined regardless of the other obstruction (interior fence), and player would determine the point based on judgement?  Or does the nearest point of relief now need to be determined getting away from the interior fence completely?

 

 

[Colin L]

The fifth clarification of the Definition of the Nearest Point of Complete Relief gives you your answer:

 

Nearest Point of Complete Relief/5 - Player Physically Unable to Determine Nearest Point of Complete Relief

If a player is physically unable to determine their nearest point of complete relief, it must be estimated, and the relief area is then based on the estimated point.

For example, in taking relief under Rule 16.1, a player is physically unable to determine the nearest point of complete relief because that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required stance.The player must estimate the nearest point of complete relief and drop a ball in the identified relief area.If it is not physically possible to drop the ball in the identified relief area, the player is not allowed relief under Rule 16.1.

[rogolf]

Since the two obstructions are separate obstructions, the player takes relief one step at a time.  If taking relief from the cart path, find the nearest point of complete relief from that cart path, disregarding the fence, and drop the ball in the relief area.  If there is now interference by the fence, free relief is available by repeating the relief procedure.  If the cart path interferes after relief from the fence, there is a procedure for that also, often called the "ping-pong" procedure.  It must be done one step at a time - taking relief from both at the same time is not correct.

The player should evaluate the relief outcomes before picking up his ball, sometimes it's better to not start the process and play the ball as it lies.

If the fence is quite close to the cart path, the Committee might decide to declare the two obstructions as a single obstruction to simplify things.

Edited October 21, 2024 by rogolf

[rzitup]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

The fifth clarification of the Definition of the Nearest Point of Complete Relief gives you your answer:

 

Nearest Point of Complete Relief/5 - Player Physically Unable to Determine Nearest Point of Complete Relief

If a player is physically unable to determine their nearest point of complete relief, it must be estimated, and the relief area is then based on the estimated point.

For example, in taking relief under Rule 16.1, a player is physically unable to determine the nearest point of complete relief because that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required stance.The player must estimate the nearest point of complete relief and drop a ball in the identified relief area.If it is not physically possible to drop the ball in the identified relief area, the player is not allowed relief under Rule 16.1.

 

Fantastic.  I looked at the clarifications and did not find this one, so thanks!

[rzitup]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Since the two obstructions are separate obstructions, the player takes relief one step at a time.  If taking relief from the cart path, find the nearest point of complete relief from that cart path, disregarding the fence, and drop the ball in the relief area.  If there is now interference by the fence, free relief is available by repeating the relief procedure.  If the cart path interferes after relief from the fence, there is a procedure for that also, often called the "ping-pong" procedure.  It must be done one step at a time - taking relief from both at the same time is not correct.

The player should evaluate the relief outcomes before picking up his ball, sometimes it's better to not start the process and play the ball as it lies.

 

I understand this and often have trouble communicating it to those that do not, and in fact did come up in this situation (after the initial issue). 

But in this case, that wasnt the question.  It was focused on not being about to properly identify nearest point when starting with the cart path.  Colin L provided the clarification which mentioned the specifically.  

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, rzitup said:

 

I understand this and often have trouble communicating it to those that do not, and in fact did come up in this situation (after the initial issue). 

But in this case, that wasnt the question.  It was focused on not being about to properly identify nearest point when starting with the cart path.  Colin L provided the clarification which mentioned the specifically.  

 

I'm not sure I understand the issue with the 1st determination of nearest point of relief (from the fence) and it being on the cart path.

 

The local rule specifies the fence AND the vines entangled in it as being the IO. I don't see the issue.

 

You mentioned "straddling" the fence. That confused me. Why would the player need to straddle the fence ?

 

So, your understanding the "1 step at a time approach", the procedure s/b relatively easy. Take relief from the fence, then take relief from the cart path.

 

Or am I misunderstanding something (as usual) ?

[rzitup]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm not sure I understand the issue with the 1st determination of nearest point of relief (from the fence) and it being on the cart path.

 

The local rule specifies the fence AND the vines entangled in it as being the IO. I don't see the issue.

 

You mentioned "straddling" the fence. That confused me. Why would the player need to straddle the fence ?

 

So, your understanding the "1 step at a time approach", the procedure s/b relatively easy. Take relief from the fence, then take relief from the cart path.

 

Or am I misunderstanding something (as usual) ?

 

The nearest point of relief from the cart path, is standing next over fence, and in fact, having the fence go through your midsection.  I didnt know if that impacted actually identifying "nearest point".  Imagine if it was a brick wall, and not a skinny fence.  

ColinL provided the clarification, with the important relevant point being..."a player is physically unable to determine the nearest point of complete relief because that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required stance."

 

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

The nearest point of relief from the cart path, is standing next over fence, and in fact, having the fence go through your midsection.  I didnt know if that impacted actually identifying "nearest point".  Imagine if it was a brick wall, and not a skinny fence.  

ColinL provided the clarification, with the important relevant point being..."a player is physically unable to determine the nearest point of complete relief because that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required stance."

 

 

Sorry, maybe I'm being obtuse here.

 

I DO understand Colin's point and have seen examples of same.

 

You seem to be suggesting the nearest point of relief, after dropping on the cart path is back over on the LEFT side of the fence ? Or "inside" the fence/vine combo ?

 

The original spot of the ball IS on the right side of the fence, no ? (R & L as we are viewing the pic).

 

Isn't the initial drop area from the fence roughly in the blue circle below ? And he couldn't, or didn't, drop far enough away from the IO to where the yellow circle IS the nearest relief ? Or was that not feasible ? Or not within the allowed drop area ? 

 

Or are you suggesting the player dropped so close to the IO that his nearest point of relief is then right behind your red circle back INTO the fenced area ?

 

In which case it appears his only real option is to play off the cart path ?

 

Any chance the player, before doing anything, considered taking S&D ?

 

 

[rzitup]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sorry, maybe I'm being obtuse here.

 

I DO understand Colin's point and have seen examples of same.

 

You seem to be suggesting the nearest point of relief, after dropping on the cart path is back over on the LEFT side of the fence ? Or "inside" the fence/vine combo ?

 

The original spot of the ball IS on the right side of the fence, no ? (R & L as we are viewing the pic).

 

Isn't the initial drop area from the fence roughly in the blue circle below ? And he couldn't, or didn't, drop far enough away from the IO to where the yellow circle IS the nearest relief ? Or was that not feasible ? Or not within the allowed drop area ? 

 

Or are you suggesting the player dropped so close to the IO that his nearest point of relief is then right behind your red circle back INTO the fenced area ?

 

In which case it appears his only real option is to play off the cart path ?

 

Any chance the player, before doing anything, considered taking S&D ?

 

 

 

Original spot of the ball is on the right side of the fence (staring at the picture on screen).  

Initial drop area is not the blue circle, as that is on the cart path (he is taking relief from the cart path, first).  

Nearest point of relief is the yellow arrow....

 

But in order to establish that nearest point, he would basically have to straddle the fence or push himself up against it in an abnormal stance.  

My question was, since he cant easily establish nearest point (because of the fence), does that put nearest point further away (normal stance, avoiding the fence), which may then potentially put him on the other side of the cart path.    

Colin L kindly provided the clarification that he can drop where the yellow arrow points to, despite the fence, then take full relief from the fence.  

[nsxguy]

30 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

Original spot of the ball is on the right side of the fence (staring at the picture on screen).  

Initial drop area is not the blue circle, as that is on the cart path (he is taking relief from the cart path, first).  

Nearest point of relief is the yellow arrow....

 

But in order to establish that nearest point, he would basically have to straddle the fence or push himself up against it in an abnormal stance.  

My question was, since he cant easily establish nearest point (because of the fence), does that put nearest point further away (normal stance, avoiding the fence), which may then potentially put him on the other side of the cart path.    

Colin L kindly provided the clarification that he can drop where the yellow arrow points to, despite the fence, then take full relief from the fence.  

 

OooooooK, I think I've got it now.

 

For whatever reason I thought the first relief was from the FENCE. Not so.

 

Thanks. 👍

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, rzitup said:

 

Original spot of the ball is on the right side of the fence (staring at the picture on screen).  

Initial drop area is not the blue circle, as that is on the cart path (he is taking relief from the cart path, first).  

Nearest point of relief is the yellow arrow....

 

But in order to establish that nearest point, he would basically have to straddle the fence or push himself up against it in an abnormal stance.  

My question was, since he cant easily establish nearest point (because of the fence), does that put nearest point further away (normal stance, avoiding the fence), which may then potentially put him on the other side of the cart path.    

Colin L kindly provided the clarification that he can drop where the yellow arrow points to, despite the fence, then take full relief from the fence.  

When taking relief from the cart path, he must act as though the fence is not there and find the NPCR.  He can then drop within one club-length of the NPCR.  If there is interference by the fence after dropping, he can take free relief from the fence - find a new NPCR and drop within one club-length (not nearer the hole than NPCR).

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, rzitup said:

 

Fantastic.  I looked at the clarifications and did not find this one, so thanks!

👍   It often pays to look at the Definitions and associated clarifications.