What is the actual intent of the golf swing?

[ZGriswold83]

I'm still searching for a swing and it just occurred to me that maybe my whole concept/what I'm chasing after feel wise is wrong. Can someone try and put it into a non golf jargon, feels or what your intention is right before you start your swing? Maybe my goal is incorrect. Currently my goal is by the time I am at the top I have pressure in my trail heel and the ball of my lead foot. On the rare occasion I can make that happen, I feel so solid in my lower body my brain shuts down and the rest of my swing is just auto pilot, swinging feels natural. If I could understand what my goal is, I might be able to reverse engineer the technical side.

[Canada8888]

I just see a "window" where the apex of my ball flight will be.  Then I just let myself hit the ball into the window.

 

 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Canada8888 said:

I just see a "window" where the apex of my ball flight will be.  Then I just let myself hit the ball into the window.

 

 

This in a nutshell. Sometimes a window. Sometimes a window and shape. Sometimes a target , sometimes a landing spot.  The point is putting a ball into a position.  That’s it. Many can’t think of it this way. But allot do.  

[Ghostwedge]

Jack called it " going to the movies " visualize the shot, hit it thru your window.

 

[Pepperturbo]

19 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I'm still searching for a swing and it just occurred to me that maybe my whole concept/what I'm chasing after feel wise is wrong. Can someone try and put it into a non golf jargon, feels or what your intention is right before you start your swing? Maybe my goal is incorrect. Currently my goal is by the time I am at the top I have pressure in my trail heel and the ball of my lead foot. On the rare occasion I can make that happen, I feel so solid in my lower body my brain shuts down and the rest of my swing is just auto pilot, swinging feels natural. If I could understand what my goal is, I might be able to reverse engineer the technical side.

Sounds like you've already reverse engineered the goal, and the intent of the golf swing.  😁

 

My swing is essentially nothing more than an accelerating motion that delivers the club head to the ball that's just sitting there. 🙄 I first remind myself where my bailout is, then my last act of kindness to the ball is remind myself where I want the ball to go, my brain then goes blank, on the way to smacking the sh** out of the ball.  It's not very sophisticated 😲 for people who think too much, but it's simple and does the job well. 

[fore_life]

Swing a heavy a** ax around your belt line into a tree and see what you feel in your feet/legs/core/arms/wrists and overall sequence.

there’s nothing new in the golf swing that you haven’t done a million times with out even thinking about it until it became a golf swing lol 

[NosajNeelik]

The intent of the swing is to send the ball towards your target. Not to hit the ball or feel some part of your body. 

[tatertot]

23 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I'm still searching for a swing and it just occurred to me that maybe my whole concept/what I'm chasing after feel wise is wrong. Can someone try and put it into a non golf jargon, feels or what your intention is right before you start your swing? Maybe my goal is incorrect. Currently my goal is by the time I am at the top I have pressure in my trail heel and the ball of my lead foot. On the rare occasion I can make that happen, I feel so solid in my lower body my brain shuts down and the rest of my swing is just auto pilot, swinging feels natural. If I could understand what my goal is, I might be able to reverse engineer the technical side.

Dude ... we're smacking a little white ball into a hole ... don't overthink it.

[Conner Golf]

If you want to reverse engineer the technical side of the golf swing, controlling the center of club face would be a good intent throughout your swing.

[vman]

Even the very best search for a swing or swing thought on any given day. There’s a big difference between improving your swing from a technical perspective, at the range or at home, to playing a golf course to score.

The intent of the swing, though, is always to send the ball to its target and you decide how it’s going to get there.

[me05501]

Maybe I'm off base here, but I think the OP is asking more of a technical question. Using the word "intent" might be the issue as that leads our minds to the mental side of things, but he seems to be asking more of a technical question.

[Chunkitgood]

On 10/26/2024 at 8:31 PM, ZGriswold83 said:

I'm still searching for a swing and it just occurred to me that maybe my whole concept/what I'm chasing after feel wise is wrong. Can someone try and put it into a non golf jargon, feels or what your intention is right before you start your swing? Maybe my goal is incorrect. Currently my goal is by the time I am at the top I have pressure in my trail heel and the ball of my lead foot. On the rare occasion I can make that happen, I feel so solid in my lower body my brain shuts down and the rest of my swing is just auto pilot, swinging feels natural. If I could understand what my goal is, I might be able to reverse engineer the technical side.

Research has shown that novices perform better while concentrating on mechanics, while experts do better focusing on results.  Which makes sense, and pretty much rules out the “visualize the result” idea unless you already have the mechanics down pat.  The mental game has little relevance unless you can strike the ball properly.

 

The best answer to your question of what your goal is to reverse engineer the process, comes from Homer Kelly, who said to remember you are trying to drive the ball into the ground, not into the air.  A proper golf shot works by hitting down on the ball with a delofted club, provided you have enough speed.  It looks to me like the part of the swing people tend to leave out is the part similar to breaking up concrete with a sledge hammer, and involves motion mostly in the sagittal plane as opposed to rotation in the transverse plane.

 

This is an interesting set of (unverified but reasonable sounding) facts about the swing (https://www.theintegrativeclinic.com/post/golf-unlocking-the-kinematic-sequence😞

 

“SPINE MOTION WITH A FULL GOLF SWING USING A DRIVER

 

Sagittal Plane:

 

If we look at the average spine motion of a golf professional, we see that in the sagittal plane, the spine extends from 15 degrees of forward bend to about 1 degree of backward bend at the top of the backswing, only to end around 18 degrees of forward bend at impact.

 

Sagittal plane spinal motion: 34 degrees of total bending motion in less than 3 seconds.

 

Frontal Plane:

 

In the frontal plane, a right handed golfer's spine bends to the right 14 degrees at address, followed by 24 degrees of left side bend at the top of the backswing, and finishes around 22 degrees of right side bend at impact.

 

Frontal plane spinal motion: 60 degrees of total side bend motion in less than 3 seconds.

 

Transverse Plane:

 

Lastly, in the transverse plane, a right handed golfer's spine at address is rotated 10 degrees to the left. At the top of the backswing, right rotation reaches approximately 44 degrees and at impact the spine is rotated 13 degrees to the right.”

 

Motion in the sagittal plane is often confused with motion in the golfer’s frontal plane, since both can be in the same plane with respect to the ground as viewed by an observer.   It can also look like rotation.  In other words the recentering we hear so much about  (i.e. movment of the pelvis towards the target with no rotation) is largely movement in the sagittal plane, flexing of the hips to be precise, that initiates the subsequent flexion of the spine.  Once we realize that angular momentum can be generated in the sagittal plane, as with a sledge hammer, we can see how gravity might be doing a little something in the swing.

 

  IMO, of course.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2024 by Chunkitgood

[ZGriswold83]

10 hours ago, me05501 said:

Maybe I'm off base here, but I think the OP is asking more of a technical question. Using the word "intent" might be the issue as that leads our minds to the mental side of things, but he seems to be asking more of a technical question.

I may have misused the word. I'm looking for something I can focus on that would help me feel the proper movements in a swing. Like for example, I was told in a lesson one time to throw the club down the right side of the fairway. I understood what it meant, but never helped.

[NosajNeelik]

3 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I may have misused the word. I'm looking for something I can focus on that would help me feel the proper movements in a swing. Like for example, I was told in a lesson one time to throw the club down the right side of the fairway. I understood what it meant, but never helped.

Look up Kwon rope drill 

[KMeloney]

13 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I may have misused the word. I'm looking for something I can focus on that would help me feel the proper movements in a swing. Like for example, I was told in a lesson one time to throw the club down the right side of the fairway. I understood what it meant, but never helped.

It's going to be different for everyone. You might need to focus on something that helps avoid a slice -- or hook, or chunk, or thin, or any number of things. Or you might be better off uncluttering your mind. Who knows?

[glk]

11 hours ago, NosajNeelik said:

Look up Kwon rope drill 

I would add that continuous swings via just the arms, rope, weight, orange whip/swish stick, and ultimately the club - to do nonstop continuous swings well one must use the entire body.

 

 

 

[ZGriswold83]

6 hours ago, KMeloney said:

It's going to be different for everyone. You might need to focus on something that helps avoid a slice -- or hook, or chunk, or thin, or any number of things. Or you might be better off uncluttering your mind. Who knows?

I've consumed so much that sometimes, I stand over the ball and I almost can't even swing.  I've seen so many contradictions that I don't know what I'm doing correct and what I'm doing wrong.

[KMeloney]

1 minute ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I've consumed so much that sometimes, I stand over the ball and I almost can't even swing.  I've seen so many contradictions that I don't know what I'm doing correct and what I'm doing wrong.

 

Sounds like you could do with an instructor looking at your swing and pointing you in the right direction. What you think you should be doing is one thing, what you feel like you're doing is another, and what you're actually doing could be yet another. 

[ZGriswold83]

5 hours ago, glk said:

I would add that continuous swings via just the arms, rope, weight, orange whip/swish stick, and ultimately the club - to do nonstop continuous swings well one must use the entire body.

It always comes back to Dr. Kwon.  I have an "official" Dr. Kwon rope and an orange whip...hell I've even got the kettle bell.  I have done the swings with all of them, but it never translates to the club.  Everything I try is a band aid, it works for a while and then it's right back to all my old stuff.  I thought maybe if I stopped focusing on swing mechanics, it might help.  I wish I could find something that I could practice over and over and over again that would 100 % make me a better ball striker, I'm not talking about tour level, I'm talking about something that will help me strike the ball better than the awful 10 handicap I am right now.

[glk]

6 minutes ago, ZGriswold83 said:

It always comes back to Dr. Kwon.  I have an "official" Dr. Kwon rope and an orange whip...hell I've even got the kettle bell.  I have done the swings with all of them, but it never translates to the club.  Everything I try is a band aid, it works for a while and then it's right back to all my old stuff.  I thought maybe if I stopped focusing on swing mechanics, it might help.  I wish I could find something that I could practice over and over and over again that would 100 % make me a better ball striker, I'm not talking about tour level, I'm talking about something that will help me strike the ball better than the awful 10 handicap I am right now.

Having the stuff and doing it properly are two different things.  It is not hard but given an individual motion patterns then using them without guidance can be counter productive.   Would have to see you swing a weight to know what you are doing or not doing.  A ten is far from crappy.

Edited October 29, 2024 by glk

[ZGriswold83]

3 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

Sounds like you could do with an instructor looking at your swing and pointing you in the right direction. What you think you should be doing is one thing, what you feel like you're doing is another, and what you're actually doing could be yet another. 

I've had more lessons in the past 4 years that in my first 20 playing golf.  Every time I go, I hit the ball really well at my lesson and then it's gone.  My last one was about a month ago or so and he watched me swing, then gave me something to try.  I hit the ball better than I have in years, but he didn't tell me what my issue was, he barely said anything; basically watched me hit balls for a half hour.  All my lessons have been like that.  Maybe I'm expecting too much, but all I'm looking for is for someone to say "your x sucks, if you work on it, you'll definitely improve".

[ZGriswold83]

1 minute ago, glk said:

Having the stuff and doing it properly are two different things.  It is not hard but given an individual motion patterns then using them without guidance can be counter productive.   Would have to see you swing a weight to know what you are doing or not doing.

Another issue.  Without guidance, I just doubt that I do any golf drills correctly. 

[Rapidcat]

I'm curious, does Dr. Kwon play golf? Has he a technically decent swing?

 

Anyone know?

 

Simply interested.

[Ross_Albatross]

@ZGriswold83 - not going into the semantics of 'intent', but what I think you're after is how you should feel your body is moving when swinging, trying to figure out those feels that help you repeat the same swing over and over for the rest of your golfing days... you're trying to 'get it', 'figure it out' and I'm afraid this is impossible - as every golfer in the entire world is on that unattainable quest (just look at this forum, and every range, and even pros rehearsing exaggeration moves)...

 

We're swinging clubs at over 100mph, leave the face open 2* on that one, or 1* closed and it's a different ball flight, with obviously different results... quasi-same swing!... I was compel to type this as I needed a mind shift - coming from a very high level hockey background I can snipe a puck on the crossbar almost at will, often missing it by an inch or so and was wondering how I couldn't 'figure out' a golf swing that would produce similar robotic results - it's just in the nature of the game, in the physics of it also...

 

Of course we want to work on our swing, with capable eyes looking at it, to ingrain sound fundamentals, mechanics, body moves - that will diminish the variability of results... but, in my humble opinion, wanting to 'get it once and for all' is setting yourself up for a lot of frustration - that you seem to show here

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, Rapidcat said:

I'm curious, does Dr. Kwon play golf? Has he a technically decent swing?

 

Anyone know?

 

Simply interested.

 

believe he plays, I've heard him mention that he has decent speed for his age and credits his stuff. Think he got into golf later in life, pretty sure Como got him interested in it from the science side years back but not for sure. 

[ZGriswold83]

12 minutes ago, PracticeSwinger said:

@ZGriswold83 - not going into the semantics of 'intent', but what I think you're after is how you should feel your body is moving when swinging, trying to figure out those feels that help you repeat the same swing over and over for the rest of your golfing days... you're trying to 'get it', 'figure it out' and I'm afraid this is impossible - as every golfer in the entire world is on that unattainable quest (just look at this forum, and every range, and even pros rehearsing exaggeration moves)...

 

We're swinging clubs at over 100mph, leave the face open 2* on that one, or 1* closed and it's a different ball flight, with obviously different results... quasi-same swing!... I was compel to type this as I needed a mind shift - coming from a very high level hockey background I can snipe a puck on the crossbar almost at will, often missing it by an inch or so and was wondering how I couldn't 'figure out' a golf swing that would produce similar robotic results - it's just in the nature of the game, in the physics of it also...

 

Of course we want to work on our swing, with capable eyes looking at it, to ingrain sound fundamentals, mechanics, body moves - that will diminish the variability of results... but, in my humble opinion, wanting to 'get it once and for all' is setting yourself up for a lot of frustration - that you seem to show here

I think part of what I'm trying to find is some confidence. I used to just go play, never knew anything about a golf swing other than what I picked up from the golf channel and golf digest. I was consistently shooting high 70s low 80s on a pretty consistent basis. I considered myself a 'feel' player and I loved playing. Now all I can think about before a swing is mechanical/technical positions.  I constantly change what Im trying to do and chase 'the swing'. I have seriously considered quitting a lot over the past couple of years, I'm not having fun anymore. To quote Roy Mcavoy 'my swing feels like an unfolded lawn chair'. The most frustrating thing is that I have put a lot of time into getting better and it just doesn't show up on the course.  My goal is to lower my handicap and it hasn't gone anywhere but up.

[Ross_Albatross]

22 minutes ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I think part of what I'm trying to find is some confidence. I used to just go play, never knew anything about a golf swing other than what I picked up from the golf channel and golf digest. I was consistently shooting high 70s low 80s on a pretty consistent basis. I considered myself a 'feel' player and I loved playing. Now all I can think about before a swing is mechanical/technical positions.  I constantly change what Im trying to do and chase 'the swing'. I have seriously considered quitting a lot over the past couple of years, I'm not having fun anymore. To quote Roy Mcavoy 'my swing feels like an unfolded lawn chair'. The most frustrating thing is that I have put a lot of time into getting better and it just doesn't show up on the course.  My goal is to lower my handicap and it hasn't gone anywhere but up.

I think we all get that, the vast majority of players on this board are on the same path - and most of the frustration with golf comes from what seems is, diminishing results per hour of practice... all those rabbit holes, pseudo-aha moments and compensation bandaids that work for a few rounds - having 'figured it out'... downward mental spiral, losing confidence, wondering how we can't 'get it'... that's why I wanted to reply with working on reducing the variability of results and a mindset shift of accepting that we can only diminish our misses... and go from there with the Tom Watson approach after a bad miss

[Nard_S]

I think intents are highly dependent on what big fault screws up the swing. What's the 70% problem, what's intent counters that? In play, swinging to a precise window and doing it with full balance is about as complicated as I attempt. In practice intents are multiple and I may call on them in play to get back to the simpler of window/balance. That can derail if wrong micro-intents are chosen, so listening to how things feel and how they match or don't match with desires of outcome matter. But it should never dominate head space. Because over riding intent on the course should always be "play golf, not golf swing".

[Ri_Redneck]

2 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I think part of what I'm trying to find is some confidence. I used to just go play, never knew anything about a golf swing other than what I picked up from the golf channel and golf digest. I was consistently shooting high 70s low 80s on a pretty consistent basis. I considered myself a 'feel' player and I loved playing. Now all I can think about before a swing is mechanical/technical positions.  I constantly change what Im trying to do and chase 'the swing'. I have seriously considered quitting a lot over the past couple of years, I'm not having fun anymore. To quote Roy Mcavoy 'my swing feels like an unfolded lawn chair'. The most frustrating thing is that I have put a lot of time into getting better and it just doesn't show up on the course.  My goal is to lower my handicap and it hasn't gone anywhere but up.

THIS tells the tale! You had a natural swing and just did what felt right. Unless you aspire to high level competition, go back to that! That's what I did after struggling for decades with swing mechanics. Keep in mind the simple stuff like "rotate and not sway", "generate speed smoothly", "Swing through the ball", etc. Don't chase positions because positions are the result of what was done before. You mentioned that you were given "something to try" at a lesson and your ball striking was better. That "something" needed to be incorporated into your "normal" swing through repetition. Continue until you no longer have to think about it to do it. Could be a week or it could be several months. Personally, I have to practice continuously or I get out of whack. It's just the way it is.

 

BT

[glk]

3 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

I'm curious, does Dr. Kwon play golf? Has he a technically decent swing?

 

Anyone know?

 

Simply interested.

In email conversations with Dr Kwon he shared his 7i is his 180 club and 5w is 240. He has a bum left ankle from an injury as a youth and it affects his ability to push well with it - on bad days his big miss is fat shots.   We didn't talk score but believe he was a low cap.  He was definitely a hack when he first started - like a lot of folks in golf he hasn't played much the last few years - it didn't help that TWU plowed under the on campus golf course.  He has been in sports biomechanics since the early 90s - though his undergraduate degree is in astronomy.  He first looked into golf when a grad student of his wanted to do a paper on the golf swing in 2007 - so his interest built from there and his first paper on the functional golf swing (with Como as a coauthor among other students) was published in 2012.  By 2015 he has done the bulk of his research and began to offer his certification classes to golf professionals (instructors, golf fitness folks,etc ).  He has added to these as his research has expanded - he has a paper coming out soon on the wrists which will be followed with a paper on the midhand forces.  His certification classes are open to anyone - and once taken retakes are free forever.   I'm in the middle of a retake but sadly his mom passed late last week and he has had to postpone cert II to later in November.   He has a lot of interest in juniors too and published a paper last year on how the two step drills affected their swings.   He has also taken interest in club specs  since he has found juniors frequently come to him swinging heavy clubs that even tour pros don't use - especially girls.    

Edited October 30, 2024 by glk