What is the actual intent of the golf swing?

[ZGriswold83]

2 hours ago, PracticeSwinger said:

I think we all get that, the vast majority of players on this board are on the same path - and most of the frustration with golf comes from what seems is, diminishing results per hour of practice... all those rabbit holes, pseudo-aha moments and compensation bandaids that work for a few rounds - having 'figured it out'... downward mental spiral, losing confidence, wondering how we can't 'get it'... that's why I wanted to reply with working on reducing the variability of results and a mindset shift of accepting that we can only diminish our misses... and go from there with the Tom Watson approach after a bad miss

Have you been listening to my therapy sessions? 😂

[ZGriswold83]

52 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

THIS tells the tale! You had a natural swing and just did what felt right. Unless you aspire to high level competition, go back to that! That's what I did after struggling for decades with swing mechanics. Keep in mind the simple stuff like "rotate and not sway", "generate speed smoothly", "Swing through the ball", etc. Don't chase positions because positions are the result of what was done before. You mentioned that you were given "something to try" at a lesson and your ball striking was better. That "something" needed to be incorporated into your "normal" swing through repetition. Continue until you no longer have to think about it to do it. Could be a week or it could be several months. Personally, I have to practice continuously or I get out of whack. It's just the way it is.

 

BT

I 100% agree with this, but I didn't have hardly any lower body action. I could barely get through a round and had to take handfuls of Aleeve after a round. The older, less flexible and more injured I got, I almost had to change. After swinging that way most of my life, incorporating new movements had been a frustrating process.

[Barfolomew]

Srixon makes the best club...

[tatertot]

On 10/28/2024 at 3:58 PM, Chunkitgood said:

Research has shown that novices perform better while concentrating on mechanics, while experts do better focusing on results.  Which makes sense, and pretty much rules out the “visualize the result” idea unless you already have the mechanics down pat.  The mental game has little relevance unless you can strike the ball properly.

 

The best answer to your question of what your goal is to reverse engineer the process, comes from Homer Kelly, who said to remember you are trying to drive the ball into the ground, not into the air.  A proper golf shot works by hitting down on the ball with a delofted club, provided you have enough speed.  It looks to me like the part of the swing people tend to leave out is the part similar to breaking up concrete with a sledge hammer, and involves motion mostly in the sagittal plane as opposed to rotation in the transverse plane.

 

This is an interesting set of (unverified but reasonable sounding) facts about the swing (https://www.theintegrativeclinic.com/post/golf-unlocking-the-kinematic-sequence😞

 

“SPINE MOTION WITH A FULL GOLF SWING USING A DRIVER

 

Sagittal Plane:

 

If we look at the average spine motion of a golf professional, we see that in the sagittal plane, the spine extends from 15 degrees of forward bend to about 1 degree of backward bend at the top of the backswing, only to end around 18 degrees of forward bend at impact.

 

Sagittal plane spinal motion: 34 degrees of total bending motion in less than 3 seconds.

 

Frontal Plane:

 

In the frontal plane, a right handed golfer's spine bends to the right 14 degrees at address, followed by 24 degrees of left side bend at the top of the backswing, and finishes around 22 degrees of right side bend at impact.

 

Frontal plane spinal motion: 60 degrees of total side bend motion in less than 3 seconds.

 

Transverse Plane:

 

Lastly, in the transverse plane, a right handed golfer's spine at address is rotated 10 degrees to the left. At the top of the backswing, right rotation reaches approximately 44 degrees and at impact the spine is rotated 13 degrees to the right.”

 

Motion in the sagittal plane is often confused with motion in the golfer’s frontal plane, since both can be in the same plane with respect to the ground as viewed by an observer.   It can also look like rotation.  In other words the recentering we hear so much about  (i.e. movment of the pelvis towards the target with no rotation) is largely movement in the sagittal plane, flexing of the hips to be precise, that initiates the subsequent flexion of the spine.  Once we realize that angular momentum can be generated in the sagittal plane, as with a sledge hammer, we can see how gravity might be doing a little something in the swing.

 

  IMO, of course.

 

 

 

Wow ... you've made a simple and enjoyable game an absolute bore fest. Congrats!

[GoGoErky]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:58 PM, Chunkitgood said:

Research has shown that novices perform better while concentrating on mechanics, while experts do better focusing on results.  Which makes sense, and pretty much rules out the “visualize the result” idea unless you already have the mechanics down pat.  The mental game has little relevance unless you can strike the ball properly.

 

The best answer to your question of what your goal is to reverse engineer the process, comes from Homer Kelly, who said to remember you are trying to drive the ball into the ground, not into the air.  A proper golf shot works by hitting down on the ball with a delofted club, provided you have enough speed.  It looks to me like the part of the swing people tend to leave out is the part similar to breaking up concrete with a sledge hammer, and involves motion mostly in the sagittal plane as opposed to rotation in the transverse plane.

 

This is an interesting set of (unverified but reasonable sounding) facts about the swing (https://www.theintegrativeclinic.com/post/golf-unlocking-the-kinematic-sequence😞

 

“SPINE MOTION WITH A FULL GOLF SWING USING A DRIVER

 

Sagittal Plane:

 

If we look at the average spine motion of a golf professional, we see that in the sagittal plane, the spine extends from 15 degrees of forward bend to about 1 degree of backward bend at the top of the backswing, only to end around 18 degrees of forward bend at impact.

 

Sagittal plane spinal motion: 34 degrees of total bending motion in less than 3 seconds.

 

Frontal Plane:

 

In the frontal plane, a right handed golfer's spine bends to the right 14 degrees at address, followed by 24 degrees of left side bend at the top of the backswing, and finishes around 22 degrees of right side bend at impact.

 

Frontal plane spinal motion: 60 degrees of total side bend motion in less than 3 seconds.

 

Transverse Plane:

 

Lastly, in the transverse plane, a right handed golfer's spine at address is rotated 10 degrees to the left. At the top of the backswing, right rotation reaches approximately 44 degrees and at impact the spine is rotated 13 degrees to the right.”

 

Motion in the sagittal plane is often confused with motion in the golfer’s frontal plane, since both can be in the same plane with respect to the ground as viewed by an observer.   It can also look like rotation.  In other words the recentering we hear so much about  (i.e. movment of the pelvis towards the target with no rotation) is largely movement in the sagittal plane, flexing of the hips to be precise, that initiates the subsequent flexion of the spine.  Once we realize that angular momentum can be generated in the sagittal plane, as with a sledge hammer, we can see how gravity might be doing a little something in the swing.

 

  IMO, of course.

 

 

 

Way to copy and paste from the article. You provided zero insight and how can copy and paste be your opinion

[PNWGuy]

@ZGriswold83 Are your practice sessions focused on mechanics or hitting various targets?  If it's both how much time do you allocate to each type?

[ZGriswold83]

56 minutes ago, PNWGuy said:

@ZGriswold83 Are your practice sessions focused on mechanics or hitting various targets?  If it's both how much time do you allocate to each type?

I'd say half/half when I go to the range. First half I work on whatever I'm trying out that week and then usually move to hitting wedges to flags. Sometimes I will 'play' a few holes in my mind, start with driver, hit and approach or 2 then back to driver.

[Ri_Redneck]

19 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I 100% agree with this, but I didn't have hardly any lower body action. I could barely get through a round and had to take handfuls of Aleeve after a round. The older, less flexible and more injured I got, I almost had to change. After swinging that way most of my life, incorporating new movements had been a frustrating process.

I too am "on up in years" (62) and have less mobility than when I was younger. My current swing was developed taking those limitations in mind. I strive for maximum speed while keeping my movements within my capabilities. What that means is I'll never get back to the 120s. But I can still move it pretty good with what I have. I came up with my swing by dry swinging a lot while focusing on timing and smooth generation of speed. Once I had the feel of moving the club as fast as possible while keeping in balance and not stressing my joints, I went to the range and adjusted my setup to suit my swing. It took a few months to get it ingrained, but it's very repeatable now.

 

Also, even though stiffness has crept in, it doesn't mean you have to totally give in to it. I still stretch every morning in an effort to offset it as much as I can. Yoga is great too, just avoid any positions that cause lingering pain.

 

BT

[Petethreeput]

This all sounds like paralysis by analysis to me.

 

Have you tried to play and not keep score?  Or broken up the course into groups of 3 holes instead of the overall?

 

I think it was Monty who has said there is a difference between playing golf and playing golf swing; if you play golf it's fun, if you play golf swing it isn't fun.  At least for me, playing golf swing is living and dying on the result of the previous shot, playing golf is the acceptance of the next challenge and believing I have it in me.

 

Like you, I hadnt taken lessons for the first 35 years of golf, and then when my wife started I said I would take lessons with her.  It took me a long time to "get over" the lessons and just play golf.  Oddly enough, my handicap dropped 3 strokes over the course of 2 months and I am finishing the season lower than I have in 15 years.  Presumably you have improved since starting the lessons, if you can, I would just see what they have done for you.  I think you will enjoy it more, I know I did.

[big10blue]

I always say the whole point of the swing is to bring the club face right back to where it was at address. This helps me tempo my swing better and not over think anything. If its not coming back where it was you need to slow down and rebuild back up.

[ellamia1]

I often wonder where my power goes all of a sudden.  I feel the harder I swing at it, the more yardage I lose.  The key is in the tension.  You have to maintain the tension between the segments of your golf swing.  By doing this, it allows the energy and speed to be transferred down the line and ultimately in the clubhead.  The problem with swinging hard with the arms or releasing the club purposely and early, you lose the connection and tension.  This now becomes to your given ability to muster up as much clubhead speed as possible.  Why not focus on maintaining the coiling forces built up in the back of your shoulders and torso during the back swing?  You'll be shocked at how much clubhead speed can be acquired with less effort.  I hope this makes sense.  I will continue to try to bring this new philosophy to the table of golf instruction.  Tension and Torque.  Like a piston in a powerful engine.

 

ShanksGolf 

[Tanner25]

On 10/29/2024 at 10:57 AM, glk said:

I would add that continuous swings via just the arms, rope, weight, orange whip/swish stick, and ultimately the club - to do nonstop continuous swings well one must use the entire body.

 

 

 

 

glk,

 

How long did it take for you from using the first drill above to it blending into your swing with out thinking about it? Do you use it as a pre-swing motion before the actual swing?

 

Thx

Edited November 1, 2024 by Tanner25

[slytown]

There are two types of downswings essentially. It doesnt really matter the backswing.

 

One is a throw, where the arms extend and there is a lot of hand action thru the ball. The other is a pull, where the body leads the arms more and there is less face rotation. Both types have been successfull, u just gotta find the right one for u.

 

In general good, stronger players pull because they use their body to create a lot of power. Throwers tend to be good, weaker players like ladies and juniors. 

 

I was definitely a thrower most of my life because I started young and small. As I got older I started pulling more.

 

 

[glk]

15 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

 

glk,

 

How long did it take for you from using the first drill above to it blending into your swing with out thinking about it? Do you use it as a pre-swing motion before the actual swing?

 

Thx

Can't really say .    A small step right and then left with a shortened swing to set the tone of shifting is all the i needed .  some maywant to do continuous swings but I personally don't see it as necessary as a pre swing.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, slytown said:

One is a throw, where the arms extend and there is a lot of hand action thru the ball. The other is a pull, where the body leads the arms more and there is less face rotation. Both types have been successfull, u just gotta find the right one for u.

 

In general good, stronger players pull because they use their body to create a lot of power. Throwers tend to be good, weaker players like ladies and juniors. 

 

I was definitely a thrower most of my life because I started young and small. As I got older I started pulling more.

 

Pending some pretty "different" definitions for those two swings, I don't agree with much of that.

 

Some of what I would call my "throwers" have the most stable faces. They're also some of my strongest, fastest players.

 

Some of my "pullers" are children or women and many have highly unstable faces.

Again, maybe again these definitions are being interpreted differently… but they'd have to be pretty far from what I'm picturing for me to say "yeah, that seems mostly okay."

 

P.S. This feels like it's close to "feels" versus reality, as all golfers "throw" and all golfers "pull" to some extent. Some might be 95%/5% 🤣 but nobody is 100/0, and sometimes throwers feel like they're pulling or vice versa.

[dan360]

What does dan360 chase with a golf swing?

 

A reliable, repeatable-under-stress movement that allows the highest speed and best angle of attack against the golf ball, with the least amount of stress/effort and pain on the body.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by dan360

[Mizunoid]

I have one and only one feeling, which is to feel like my right elbow is welded to my right pec throughout the swing. This has absolutely transformed my ball striking. I've always taken divots but i dig massive holes - ball flight would often be straight or a very slight fade, divot pointing left. Now, divot faces straight and the ball flight is arrow straight or a slight draw, divots are less than half inch deep, uniform for their entire length. That's feeling.

 

In terms of what i see, i see target and ball flight. It's very easy to, for example, make the ball go higher if you think before the shot that you need to hit it high. Your body will automatically do it.

 

For me, too many tip videos and swing thoughts are ruining a lot of golfers. Golf is supposed to be simple but hard to be good at. 

 

The transition of weight during a back swing is supposed to be natural, like when we throw a stone. Imagine your right arm is throwing a stone just as you approach the ball for impact. If you were actually throwing a stone from there your weight would naturally go onto your lead leg.

 

You'll never have a natural swing if you have to think about it. 

 

 

[RMD2025]

I understand what you mean and what you are asking.

 

 

 

A single thought to make your body produce a result without having to think about it.

 

 

 

For me to hit a pitch shot I pick a landing zone on the green and try to land soft on that spot. I first of all set the sweet spot of the club to the ball to get a visual of how I need to hit the ball in that particular lie and get an idea of what impact looks like. My body understands my goal and the general attack angle to required so after a quick practice and a shuffle for ball position I just try to land the ball soft on that spot. Doesn't always work out but generally my misses are slight pulls or pushes and nothing too damaging unless I misread the lie or wind etc.

 

 

 

For Longer Shots and especially drives I make sure that I am attacking the ball from an inside path, even for fades as this puts my right hand under the club and limits the amount the club can open. This is crucial for me because when I try to swing too hard I seem to have a natural tendency with my body mechanics to want to rotate my wrists open.

 

 

 

So that being addressed and on to the actual thought I have which gives my body an actionable task is to try and keep the roll out straight. That's it. I look at the middle of the fairway and aim slightly left to allow for my natural baby fade and try to have the roll out go as straight as possible. This is good for me because it makes me focus on the landing zone and I can feel my subconscious take over a bit as I waggle and fidget before the shot feels right to limit side spin. Again it's not a guaranteed success but generally I find that my misses are a lovely pull left and big fade back to the fairway or striking off the toe for a weak draw which is the main reason that I can step onto the tee with confidence. Not because I feel I'm going to stripe it but because I feel that my misses are manageable.

[PedronNiall]

On 10/27/2024 at 8:10 PM, NosajNeelik said:

The intent of the swing is to send the ball towards your target. Not to hit the ball or feel some part of your body. 

 

For some reason this gem was passed by without discussion when it's about as true and concise as it gets. That is the intent of the golf swing at its core and anyone hoping to play well should have that down. 

 

If a golfer has that in mind and starts with a setup that helps rather than hinders that intent that's about as simple as the main tenets of golf get. 

[tatertot]

The real intent of the golf swing? To make us as miserable as humanly possible.

[biker74]

On 10/27/2024 at 6:56 PM, fore_life said:

Swing a heavy a** ax around your belt line into a tree and see what you feel in your feet/legs/core/arms/wrists and overall sequence.

there’s nothing new in the golf swing that you haven’t done a million times with out even thinking about it until it became a golf swing lol 

Spot on my friend.When I just think of it as a throw it simplifies many things.You load up without mega swaying.And launch it to the target with arms and hands never getting stuck behind.Body will grip the ground and naturally open.Its so simple thinking this way.But allusively complex and discouraging that it may be that easy.

why in a huge fan of Monte.He teaches things in a simple vs complex format.Some on these social media sites love complex.But for me simple and to the point makes this game more enjoyable