Legality of on-green slope reader?

[ChipNRun]

I take it that this device is illegal for normal play...

 

What specific rule does it violate?

 

[Halebopp]

Rule 4.3 deals with the issue. Check the clarifications if the rule itself leaves you wondering.

[davep043]

3 hours ago, Halebopp said:

Rule 4.3 deals with the issue. Check the clarifications if the rule itself leaves you wondering.

You give him a bit of credit for willingness to search for the specific rule, even though you gave him all the guidance he really SHOULD need.

Spoiler

Clarification 4.3a(1)/1 makes it completely clear.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, the various (free) LLM Artificial Intelligence apps out there (like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Co-Pilot) are not too bad at directing you to the proper Rule of Golf. At times they are HORRIBLE - just terrible - at interpreting the rules. But for finding one, I have found them to be useful. See below from ChatGPT.

 

dave

 

[davep043]

4 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

At times they are HORRIBLE

I agree, and using a search engine like Google is even worse in many cases.  The bit you posted, however, seems pretty accurate.

[Halebopp]

19 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

FWIW, the various (free) LLM Artificial Intelligence apps out there (like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Co-Pilot) are not too bad at directing you to the proper Rule of Golf. At times they are HORRIBLE - just terrible - at interpreting the rules. But for finding one, I have found them to be useful. See below from ChatGPT.

 

dave

 

 

In my opinion there are far too many issues with the answer.

 

• You can use equipment that measure elevation changes, or gradients, you just can't use those capabilities and the information they'd provide during the round.
• A local rule is used to disallow the use of electronic DMDs, not to allow their use.
• If the bit about a local rule being used to allow the use of such equipment refers to using the aforementioned information, the local rule would be an unauthorized one.
• Also, casual and competitive play follow the same rules of golf.

 

• The first bullet point under point 2, with the use of the word "only" implies very strongly that devices capable of measuring other things would not be permitted. The second bullet point then contradicts that implication.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

In my opinion there are far too many issues with the answer.

 

• You can use equipment that measure elevation changes, or gradients, you just can't use those capabilities and the information they'd provide during the round.
• A local rule is used to disallow the use of electronic DMDs, not to allow their use.
• If the bit about a local rule being used to allow the use of such equipment refers to using the aforementioned information, the local rule would be an unauthorized one.
• Also, casual and competitive play follow the same rules of golf.

 

• The first bullet point under point 2, with the use of the word "only" implies very strongly that devices capable of measuring other things would not be permitted. The second bullet point then contradicts that implication.

 

And that is the point. I asked for, and received, a rule number. Anything  beyond that is iffy.  dave

[st1800e]

So using the slope feature on a laser rangefinder is contrary to the ROG for any round that is to be posted for handicap purposes? 
 

I suspect many players do not know this.  

[davep043]

1 minute ago, st1800e said:

So using the slope feature on a laser rangefinder is contrary to the ROG for any round that is to be posted for handicap purposes? 
 

I suspect many players do not know this.  

I suspect that many more are aware, but use it anyway, and still post their scores.

[DaveLeeNC]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I suspect that many more are aware, but use it anyway, and still post their scores.

I don't know about the numbers across the GHIN population here in the US, but I am encountering more frequently golfers who treat slope information (full shots from the fairway/tee box) as public information. It is no longer unusual for (as an example) the first guy on the tee to say "167 yards to the pin" (not a problem), "172 with slope (a problem)". Not all the time by any means, but this is no longer unusual in my experience.

 

dave

[davep043]

Just now, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't know about the numbers across the GHIN population here in the US, but I am encountering more frequently golfers who treat slope information (full shots from the fairway/tee box) as public information. It is no longer unusual for (as an example) the first guy on the tee to say "167 yards to the pin" (not a problem), "172 with slope (a problem)". Not all the time by any means, but this is no longer unusual in my experience.

 

dave

I'm seeing the same, with golfers who really should know better.

[Halebopp]

19 minutes ago, st1800e said:

So using the slope feature on a laser rangefinder is contrary to the ROG for any round that is to be posted for handicap purposes? 
 

I suspect many players do not know this.  

 

Looking at it from my own golf bubble it seems strange someone who knows the rules basics well enough to get around the course wouldn't know that.

 

But I'm aware of the fact that some people think the rules of golf are different for regular/competition/professional play.

[MisterT]

25 minutes ago, st1800e said:

So using the slope feature on a laser rangefinder is contrary to the ROG for any round that is to be posted for handicap purposes? 
 

I suspect many players do not know this.  

My understanding of the rules is better than many I play with, but I never understood this. Now I need to ask the pros at our courses why we don't follow that always. They post scores from our weekly Men's Golf Association events; however, I only recall not using the slope feature for what we call our majors - Member/Member, Member/Guest, etc. 

[Newby]

40 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

 

 

But I'm aware of the fact that some people think the rules of golf are different for regular/competition/professional play.

And I'm aware of the fact that some people think the rules of golf are different for them.

[rogolf]

Imo, the picture in the original post is a bubble level, and it's use is clearly not permitted - see Clarification 4.3a(1)/1, second bullet.

4.3a(1)/1 – Restrictions on Using Equipment to Gauge Slope

Although a player may use their club as a plumb line to assist in judging or gauging slope and contours, there is other equipment that a player may not use in judging a slope or contour.

For example, a player is not allowed to gauge slope by:

• Placing a bottled drink to act as a level.

• Holding or placing a bubble level.

• Using a weight suspended on a string as a plumb line.

[tatertot]

Not that I would play with one ... asking for a friend ... has anybody used the bubble, and did it help. My friend is interested in buying one to try it out. And I don't want to waste my ... his ... money.

[Newby]

12 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Not that I would play with one ... asking for a friend ... has anybody used the bubble, and did it help. My friend is interested in buying one to try it out. And I don't want to waste my ... his ... money.

It tells you nothing about the ground 12" away from where it lies.

[tatertot]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

It tells you nothing about the ground 12" away from where it lies.

Just nudge it 12" forward, and voila ... you have the info. Keeping doing that all the way to the hole and you're good to go. And it's still better to watch than somebody trample the green to do Aimpoint.

 

But I agree, I don't see it doing much.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, tatertot said:

But I agree, I don't see it doing much.

 

Then how does AimPoint work? 😛 Of course it can be useful.

[tatertot]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Then how does AimPoint work? 😛 Of course it can be useful.

 

You, sir, are a genius. I'm off to hunt green reading bubbles on Amazon.

 

[DJDJ]

one of the guys i play with showed up one day with an 8 foot long level.  we were all like wtf are you doing man?