I gotta ask, are Zero torque putters just a flavor of the month ?

[mmiicc]

20 hours ago, Red4282 said:

I will say I have no Idea if its new or not. I honestly dont care. What is new is our understanding of things thanks to tech like quintic, gears, etc. So while some of those “old” ideas never stuck, LAB went with it, and along with the tech we are seeing a bit of a revolution… dont ask me, several independent entities have said as such. The fact that almost every oem and garage maker seems to be doing some sort of this type even further validates it. 

with the caveat that I really don't feel that strongly in favor or against the "flavor of the month" debate... but wouldn't the fact that "almost every oem and garage maker seems to be doing some sort of this type" likely have way more to do with a reaction to the LAB phenomenon (whether it's wanting market share/money, wanting to prove they can do it too, or other) rather than a validation of 'revolutionary' tech? i figure most oems don't actually care about the tech itself as much as the fact that it'll likely generate more sales

[golferdude54]

What I want to see is the revealer pause at end of backstroke and end of follow-through.
 

I haven’t seen any video of the revealer pausing at those points, only a constant stroke motion.

 

It’s one thing if the putter is staying square at its lie angle hovering above the ground with a vertical shaft but let’s see the face when the shaft is paused at a 7 or 5 o’clock position.

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by golferdude54

[bunta]

51 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

What I want to see is the revealer pause at end of backstroke and end of follow-through.
 

I haven’t seen any video of the revealer pausing at those points, only a constant stroke motion.

 

It’s one thing if the putter is staying square at its lie angle hovering above the ground with a vertical shaft but let’s see the face when the shaft is paused at a 7 or 5 o’clock position.

 

 

 

What if its does twist ?? Is the putter gonna torque your arm off ??

[mmiicc]

27 minutes ago, bunta said:

 

 

What if its does twist ?? Is the putter gonna torque your arm off ??

yeah what exactly would that prove?

[Badshaft]

Well back on topic...What if the flavor of the month is chocolate? I have been eating chocolate my whole life..

 

Meaning - I have played my DF3 for 6 rounds and have enjoyed every second of it...

 

I had it fitted for me, chose the alignment marks, color, grip, and shafting to my liking.

 

When I set it behind the ball I finally feel like I can make every one of them...I like the looks, feel, and the way it is designed it consistently gets the ball started on my intended line. The putter feels in balanced for my swing.

 

Still work in progress on all aspects but I have improved inside 10 ft for sure...I easily have already forgotten my last putter (EVNRoll) that was used for last 2 seasons 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by Badshaft

[dodgyman]

I like how the "is zero-torque a flavor of the month" turned into "is LAB the flavor of the month." To me the catalyst of this question is other OEMs adopting things and seeing if this trend continues. And what they have today is not the same, I've tried sq-to-sq for example and the feel/performance are sooo different. But regardless, moving from flavor of the month to staple is not asking if LAB is legit, but it's asking if everyone starts making something similar and for a long time.

My gut tells me this will be a little bit like modern graphite shafts on irons. Initially graphite was something people thought was only for weaker players, then they started designing models for the better player there was hype, there were several OEMs that started building things, etc..  With zero-torque you have the same questions about performance and price, with hype, early adoption, gradual momentum but even now it's TBD if we're never going to see steel iron shafts again. My prediction for both is yes, but it will take a lot of time, I can see several OEMs really try to reproduce what LAB is doing, and in about 5 years something like 5-10% of all putters being zero-torque. 

It's not going away, and it's not going to change the world, but I think it will be interesting to follow.

(P.S. I'm a convert and bought one)

[Veebee3]

1 hour ago, dodgyman said:

I like how the "is zero-torque a flavor of the month" turned into "is LAB the flavor of the month." To me the catalyst of this question is other OEMs adopting things and seeing if this trend continues. And what they have today is not the same, I've tried sq-to-sq for example and the feel/performance are sooo different. But regardless, moving from flavor of the month to staple is not asking if LAB is legit, but it's asking if everyone starts making something similar and for a long time.

My gut tells me this will be a little bit like modern graphite shafts on irons. Initially graphite was something people thought was only for weaker players, then they started designing models for the better player there was hype, there were several OEMs that started building things, etc..  With zero-torque you have the same questions about performance and price, with hype, early adoption, gradual momentum but even now it's TBD if we're never going to see steel iron shafts again. My prediction for both is yes, but it will take a lot of time, I can see several OEMs really try to reproduce what LAB is doing, and in about 5 years something like 5-10% of all putters being zero-torque. 

It's not going away, and it's not going to change the world, but I think it will be interesting to follow.

(P.S. I'm a convert and bought one)

I wonder if the feel/performance is different because the other OEMs can’t infringe on the LAB patents?

[dodgyman]

39 minutes ago, Veebee3 said:

I wonder if the feel/performance is different because the other OEMs can’t infringe on the LAB patents?

Great question, don't know the answer but I do know they are nothing alike right now. I almost didn't test the Mez/DF3 just because of how weird the sq-to-sq felt. It was a bit of luck that I had some time to kill later to try Lab's and was shocked at how different they truly are. Maybe if zero torque does fade away one of the reasons will be that other OEMs will give it a bad name...

That said, I've seen plenty of people like the Oddysey/Evnroll models on YouTube so who am I to say no to them, but what's for sure is that they are not all the same. Not even close to the same thing.

[Forged4ever]

Yah

 

 

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

[5hort5tuff]

13 hours ago, dodgyman said:

I like how the "is zero-torque a flavor of the month" turned into "is LAB the flavor of the month." To me the catalyst of this question is other OEMs adopting things and seeing if this trend continues. And what they have today is not the same, I've tried sq-to-sq for example and the feel/performance are sooo different. But regardless, moving from flavor of the month to staple is not asking if LAB is legit, but it's asking if everyone starts making something similar and for a long time.

My gut tells me this will be a little bit like modern graphite shafts on irons. Initially graphite was something people thought was only for weaker players, then they started designing models for the better player there was hype, there were several OEMs that started building things, etc..  With zero-torque you have the same questions about performance and price, with hype, early adoption, gradual momentum but even now it's TBD if we're never going to see steel iron shafts again. My prediction for both is yes, but it will take a lot of time, I can see several OEMs really try to reproduce what LAB is doing, and in about 5 years something like 5-10% of all putters being zero-torque. 

It's not going away, and it's not going to change the world, but I think it will be interesting to follow.

(P.S. I'm a convert and bought one)

 

I don't agree with your graphite shaft analogy at this current time, because there are so many things in putting that one can't get from a zero torque putter.  Looks, feel, milling, neck options, etc etc.  No matter what you prefer, to play a zero torque putter, you are getting some iteration of a center shafted head with the shaft behind the top line.  Graphite shafts....they can look and feel similar to steel. 

[Burnstein]

17 hours ago, Badshaft said:

Well back on topic...What if the flavor of the month is chocolate? I have been eating chocolate my whole life..

 

Meaning - I have played my DF3 for 6 rounds and have enjoyed every second of it...

 

 

This explanation works for me. Some people like certain foods. Some don't. A lot of people want things to be yes or no and then expect that answer to be true for everybody. Putters... if you like it, roll it. If not, no worries there are others putters out there. Find what excites you on the putting green. Your taste might change over time, thats cool too.

[dannethmps]

20 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

What I want to see is the revealer pause at end of backstroke and end of follow-through.
 

I haven’t seen any video of the revealer pausing at those points, only a constant stroke motion.

 

It’s one thing if the putter is staying square at its lie angle hovering above the ground with a vertical shaft but let’s see the face when the shaft is paused at a 7 or 5 o’clock position.

 

 

I can test this tomorrow 👍🏻

[dodgyman]

3 hours ago, 5hort5tuff said:

 

I don't agree with your graphite shaft analogy at this current time, because there are so many things in putting that one can't get from a zero torque putter.  Looks, feel, milling, neck options, etc etc.  No matter what you prefer, to play a zero torque putter, you are getting some iteration of a center shafted head with the shaft behind the top line.  Graphite shafts....they can look and feel similar to steel. 

This is a good point. I agree that zero torque is a bigger leap in terms of change. I do think the similarity in these lies in some tangible benefit that I believe is real enough to last and permeate, but not large enough to transform the world overnight.

 

i don’t see these going away.

[dannethmps]

On 12/10/2024 at 12:30 AM, golferdude54 said:

What I want to see is the revealer pause at end of backstroke and end of follow-through.
 

I haven’t seen any video of the revealer pausing at those points, only a constant stroke motion.

 

It’s one thing if the putter is staying square at its lie angle hovering above the ground with a vertical shaft but let’s see the face when the shaft is paused at a 7 or 5 o’clock position.

 

 

Can confirm the putter doesn't move in the above scenario, we've filmed it so will be out with the next YouTube video 

[Roody]

Disclaimer: I don't know a lot about the ins and outs of this zero-torque technology. I've gamed a Scotty Phantom for several years now, and I love it. My putting has been getting really good, especially the last couple of seasons. And I know my opinion doesn't mean jack, but I wanted to share a quick story about a friend who got a Lab putter earlier this year. 

 

He and I were on the putting green getting ready to tee off and he shows me the new putter. Starts raving "the thing practically putts itself! This is the best putter I have ever had! You should really look into getting one!". I take a couple putts with it on the practice green, tell him it's nice and all, but I like the feel of my Scotty better. He replies "you'll see, this thing is fantastic"

He proceeds to go and put on one of the worst putting performances I think I've ever seen from him. And it was his home course, so it's not like he doesn't know the greens. 

 

Or maybe, like many others have said, a putter is 99.9% about feel for every individual. I'm still in the camp that green reading and learning how to start the ball on the intended line are more important. So to answer the OP's question, do I think it's the current flavor of the month? Absolutely. But if the technology and feel get you amped, by all means. 

[5hort5tuff]

19 minutes ago, Roody said:

Disclaimer: I don't know a lot about the ins and outs of this zero-torque technology. I've gamed a Scotty Phantom for several years now, and I love it. My putting has been getting really good, especially the last couple of seasons. And I know my opinion doesn't mean jack, but I wanted to share a quick story about a friend who got a Lab putter earlier this year. 

 

He and I were on the putting green getting ready to tee off and he shows me the new putter. Starts raving "the thing practically putts itself! This is the best putter I have ever had! You should really look into getting one!". I take a couple putts with it on the practice green, tell him it's nice and all, but I like the feel of my Scotty better. He replies "you'll see, this thing is fantastic"

He proceeds to go and put on one of the worst putting performances I think I've ever seen from him. And it was his home course, so it's not like he doesn't know the greens. 

 

Or maybe, like many others have said, a putter is 99.9% about feel for every individual. I'm still in the camp that green reading and learning how to start the ball on the intended line are more important. So to answer the OP's question, do I think it's the current flavor of the month? Absolutely. But if the technology and feel get you amped, by all means. 

 

This is where the LAB fans will tell you that he didn't spend enough time with the putter. He needs to put in a solid 10 rounds before he sees the benefits etc etc. 

[dodgyman]

51 minutes ago, Roody said:

He proceeds to go and put on one of the worst putting performances I think I've ever seen from him. And it was his home course, so it's not like he doesn't know the greens. 

This argument is misleading to some extent. Aside from the obvious fact that it’s a single example, and you will find lots of counter examples, the question is not if zero balance is demonstrably better than traditional putting or by how much.

 

If that’s the debate we’re having the wrong conversation. We would need to be posting data, studies, etc… and arguing about numbers. (Would love to see that thread btw)

 

The question as I understand it is “are zero torque putters a fad,” meaning will we see a ton of them 5-10 years from now. Golf has proven that many good ideas don’t get mass adoption and many minor/marketing things do. One person thinking they putt better and not doing so won’t answer that.

 

Why I believe it’s here to stay is because it does takes away a major variable away from the stroke and golfers feel that. Good and bad golfers alike. It actually doesn’t matter if the tech makes no/minimal difference on scores, that feeling of stability will sell.
 

There are similar debates on this forum about scoring effect on blades/GI and GI is here to stay because people feel stability and it matters to a lot of them. Zero torque feel much more stable than traditional putters to many people and that’s going to matter to a whole lot.

 

I personally expect putter scoring to improve with this tech too, it makes sense to me, I’ll def be measuring how I perform. But I just doubt this is the best all, end all.

[CPT_LHR_ATL]

It's not particularly complicated. If your difficulty with putting is primarily in controlling your face angle and consistently hitting your start lines, a zero torque putter can be quite helpful. If your putting issues stem more from poor speed control or green reading, spend your money on something else.

[mshills]

On 12/8/2024 at 5:09 AM, BYK said:

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2030019-lab-support/#comment-25632905

Wow. The customer is definitely not always right. 

[Golfingfanatic]

1 hour ago, dodgyman said:

This argument is misleading to some extent. Aside from the obvious fact that it’s a single example, and you will find lots of counter examples, the question is not if zero balance is demonstrably better than traditional putting or by how much.

 

If that’s the debate we’re having the wrong conversation. We would need to be posting data, studies, etc… and arguing about numbers. (Would love to see that thread btw)

 

The question as I understand it is “are zero torque putters a fad,” meaning will we see a ton of them 5-10 years from now. Golf has proven that many good ideas don’t get mass adoption and many minor/marketing things do. One person thinking they putt better and not doing so won’t answer that.

 

Why I believe it’s here to stay is because it does takes away a major variable away from the stroke and golfers feel that. Good and bad golfers alike. It actually doesn’t matter if the tech makes no/minimal difference on scores, that feeling of stability will sell.
 

There are similar debates on this forum about scoring effect on blades/GI and GI is here to stay because people feel stability and it matters to a lot of them. Zero torque feel much more stable than traditional putters to many people and that’s going to matter to a whole lot.

 

I personally expect putter scoring to improve with this tech too, it makes sense to me, I’ll def be measuring how I perform. But I just doubt this is the best all, end all.

This is where I have the strongest pushback on the zero/low torque stuff. I am just not sure if torque is a massive reason as to why people are missing putts. In my view people are a lot better at managing torque than they are given credit for in these threads. I am not a scientist, but I would argue that most of the objects you handle, be it as an athlete or a human being, have some degree of torque. If we just look at golf alone, every other club in your bag has some degree of torque. If people were so awful at managing torque, why are there no zero torque chippers, irons or woods?

[dodgyman]

2 minutes ago, Golfingfanatic said:

This is where I have the strongest pushback on the zero/low torque stuff. I am just not sure if torque is a massive reason as to why people are missing putts. In my view people are a lot better at managing torque than they are given credit for in these threads. I am not a scientist, but I would argue that most of the objects you handle, be it as an athlete or a human being, have some degree of torque. If we just look at golf alone, every other club in your bag has some degree of torque. If people were so awful at managing torque, why are there no zero torque chippers, irons or woods?

I am not a scientist either 🙂 here's my take on this. I agree and feel it's obvious torque is not the most important reason people miss puts. It's green reading, speed, and likely the putting surface itself, hence nothing will be a magic cure all. But where. we differ I guess is it makes total sense that reducing torque eliminates a substantial variable, and likely the only variable a putter can really eliminate.

As to why we don't see zero torque chippers, irons or woods, my guess (would love to hear from an engineer if there is any merit to this, generally curious) is that there would be huge benefit for all if you had zero torque woods, but I don't think you can make them, or no one has. Lowering CG to improve performance in woods and irons has been going on, AFAIK lowering CG reduces effective torque. If irons or woods had more effective torque I think they would be way harder to hit. 

My other guess, which again I would love someone who knows this stuff to comment on, is that it's not practical due to the speed and length of the swing. Taking your question seriously, I actually could see a "zero torque chipper" because it's effectively a putter not expected to be used for full shots and could be adjusted in a way that promotes better start lines. I'm not sure if I'm joking or not here, but you may have literally invented Lab's next product line.

[dodgyman]

Again, just one test, but interesting (ignore the clickbait title) but there's SAM data there

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by dodgyman

[labgolf]

On 12/8/2024 at 4:09 AM, BYK said:

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2030019-lab-support/#comment-25632905

Ah. I hadn't seen that. Looks like the thread was about response times and I had nothing to offer other than that which many said which was a very big sale over a holiday weekend. We fight labor cost given that our builds require about 10X the labor that our competitors do and same for customer service given the highly customizable nature of the product and our interest in offering direct to consumer experiences. Our customer service isn't really the kind of thing we can hire temps for so its an unfortunate reality that a few times a year when we have a release of a new product or the one time a year we have a sale, response times do get pretty slow. We are doing our best to improve the process but as was pointed out many times in the thread, we grew faster than anyone could have anticipated and these things just take a little time. We are looking forward to utilizing more technology and a more efficient process to help make the experience better. For perspective, this time last year, our average response time was roughly 5 business days. Currently our average response time is less than 24 hours with more than 4 times the volume. But yeah, the sale, followed by product release made things get pretty backed up.

[coreyhr]

49 minutes ago, dodgyman said:

Again, just one test, but interesting (ignore the clickbait title) but there's SAM data there

 

He must have went to the James Robinson School of YouTube Thumbnails. 

[dannethmps]

50 minutes ago, dodgyman said:

Again, just one test, but interesting (ignore the clickbait title) but there's SAM data there

 

 

I filmed this, there's more videos and data coming as well which is pretty interesting.

[dannethmps]

Just now, coreyhr said:

He must have went to the James Robinson School of YouTube Thumbnails. 

 

It's a must when trying to have people actually click on it 😞

[coreyhr]

2 minutes ago, dannethmps said:

 

It's a must when trying to have people actually click on it 😞

Haha. I know it's all part of the game. YouTube is competitive place these days.

[golferdude54]

6 hours ago, dannethmps said:

 

Can confirm the putter doesn't move in the above scenario, we've filmed it so will be out with the next YouTube video 

 

Wow, thank you so much for confirming! That's actually pretty huge that the face angle stays square to its plane even when gravity is fighting against the toe in a static position. A Bullseye wouldn't be able to accomplish that with a full toe hang.

[Brokensticks]

I feel like equipment ”hypes” comes snd goes. 
 

Will it fit someone the best? Yes, for some strokes a lie angle balanced is the best. For me, I always miss putts to the right because I just dont close the face enough. If I go between putters I get a honeymoon phase, but its probably just that I close it more if I go for 45° tor hang to a face balanced and from FB to ”Zero torque”. I tried a budget one, a 7s S2S and initial testikg has been great but that doesnt mean anything. 
 

That said, best clutch putters of all time all had a high face closure rate so who knows. 
 

Any putter that makes me not 2 putt every damn hole is a good putter. 

[BigBlue7]

Callaway/Odyssey has tried launching a zero torque putter two times prior to their current attempt. 

 

2010 - Backstryke

2016 - Toe Up

 

What does that mean? To me it is that zero torque putters are an option during a fitting, but not a cure all that every player is going to switch to. 

Edited December 11, 2024 by BigBlue7