2025 Phoenix Area Course Conditions

[GolfGuy321]

Anyone been to Mtn Shadows recently?  Wanting to get out there wondering how good of shape it is in.

[Bonneville85308]

Copper Canyon Lake/Mountain nines this morning. Generally excellent condition all around. Greens rolled smooth and looked great, receptive/soft but slower than average. Only negative was that #1 fairway on Mountain is in poor condition (very bare/burnt out) and is CPO now; same thing happened last year on the same hole during the rye-bermuda transition. No complaints on the other fairways. Rough was cut low and the tees and bunkers were fine. $55, played as a foursome in 3:45. 

[jatrain]

Wekopa Saguro on Sunday was in great shape. 

[GolfGuy321]

Hit Mtn Shadows last.  A but of brown but overall in very good shape.  Greens rolled well and balls would stick.  

 

Longbow today.  its kinda rough.  Lots of brown on the fairways, big patches of grass missing too.  Greens dry and some bumpy.  

 

Good POP at both, played around noon as single, no waiting on any hole.

[puttnforthe8]

Apparently Legend Trail has had it real bad.  There are a number of fairways and greens pretty much lost.  There was a fire in the clubhouse shutting it down.  Seems employee loss as well.

 

all in all not the place to consider until eoy.

[MackDaddy480]

Has anyone played TPC champions or Talking Stick south recently?

[sniper]

On 6/2/2025 at 12:14 PM, SilverBullets said:

yeah Quintero is a second rate layout on a top tier plot of land. 

 

Everytime I leave there I feel like it's the worst possible course they could have made on that land 

I’m glad to hear others think this way.  I live in NC but have been going on an AZ trip for a few years.  I don’t care for Quintero but others in my group like it.  I typically haven’t been a fan of Rees Jones courses so I thought it might just be me.  

[412BryanC]

I have some time off the first weekend in August and was thinking of going to try some desert golf in Phoenix for the first time and get a PLD putter fitting while I'm there. We are thinking of TPC Stadium and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. It looks like Saguaro is closed July 21-August 3rd and TPC Scottsdale is closed July 7th to August 6th for aerification. Are the courses usually healed and in good condition when they open back up? 

 

Any recommendations on backup courses or courses to play over the above two? We were thinking one WIekenberg: Big Wick, Verrando: Founders, AK Chin: Southern Dunes. 

[puttnforthe8]

1 hour ago, 412BryanC said:

I have some time off the first weekend in August and was thinking of going to try some desert golf in Phoenix for the first time and get a PLD putter fitting while I'm there. We are thinking of TPC Stadium and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. It looks like Saguaro is closed July 21-August 3rd and TPC Scottsdale is closed July 7th to August 6th for aerification. Are the courses usually healed and in good condition when they open back up? 

 

Any recommendations on backup courses or courses to play over the above two? We were thinking one WIekenberg: Big Wick, Verrando: Founders, AK Chin: Southern Dunes. 

Short answer is no.  The disclaimer is that different courses react differently. While I can make a presumption that it is the staff/team, it honestly is variable.  We could get a bit of rain, the grass could just take longer.  I would say right out of it, things may still be rough.  The healing will be evident but still bumpy.

 

For alternatives - based on desert golf - you have Verrado, Vistancia, Southern Dunes, Wick Ranch and you do have the 2nd courses; TPC Stadium and Wekopa Cholla.  I have not even looked at their dates.

 

 

Edited July 8 by puttnforthe8

[puttnforthe8]

Short nostalgia post:  due to aeration and renos/fixes at Troon North—-also closed for mid-am will be played on the original 18 holes; the original Pinnacle course is what is being played; so if interested it is a pretty cool opportunity:

 

The Old Pinnacle course, (2-10 Pinnacle and 10 - 18 Monument)

 

 

Edited July 8 by puttnforthe8

[GolfGuy321]

2 hours ago, 412BryanC said:

I have some time off the first weekend in August and was thinking of going to try some desert golf in Phoenix for the first time and get a PLD putter fitting while I'm there. We are thinking of TPC Stadium and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. It looks like Saguaro is closed July 21-August 3rd and TPC Scottsdale is closed July 7th to August 6th for aerification. Are the courses usually healed and in good condition when they open back up? 

 

Any recommendations on backup courses or courses to play over the above two? We were thinking one WIekenberg: Big Wick, Verrando: Founders, AK Chin: Southern Dunes. 

 

Southern Dunes is great.  Many high risk-high rewards options but also a safe option for each one.

 

I prefer TPC champions to stadium.

[puttnforthe8]

On 7/7/2025 at 8:09 PM, puttnforthe8 said:

Short nostalgia post:  due to aeration and renos/fixes at Troon North—-also closed for mid-am will be played on the original 18 holes; the original Pinnacle course is what is being played; so if interested it is a pretty cool opportunity:

 

The Old Pinnacle course, (2-10 Pinnacle and 10 - 18 Monument)

 

 

So to follow up on conditions:  the course as played was pretty good.  The Monument side had some bare fairway spots and most holes and some wet areas (as expected).  But still played good.  Greens were a bit slow but rolled well.  Bunkers were superb.

 

they have made scorecards specifically for the way it plays.

 

Decent play for the $75-80 price. 
 

 

[SilverBullets]

On 7/7/2025 at 8:06 PM, puttnforthe8 said:

Short answer is no.  The disclaimer is that different courses react differently. While I can make a presumption that it is the staff/team, it honestly is variable.  We could get a bit of rain, the grass could just take longer.  I would say right out of it, things may still be rough.  The healing will be evident but still bumpy.

 

For alternatives - based on desert golf - you have Verrado, Vistancia, Southern Dunes, Wick Ranch and you do have the 2nd courses; TPC Stadium and Wekopa Cholla.  I have not even looked at their dates.

 

 

are Verrado's summer greens still abysmal? The last few summers I played there the greens on Founders were just atrocious. It's like playing plinko. 

 

[SilverBullets]

On 7/7/2025 at 6:57 PM, 412BryanC said:

I have some time off the first weekend in August and was thinking of going to try some desert golf in Phoenix for the first time and get a PLD putter fitting while I'm there. We are thinking of TPC Stadium and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. It looks like Saguaro is closed July 21-August 3rd and TPC Scottsdale is closed July 7th to August 6th for aerification. Are the courses usually healed and in good condition when they open back up? 

 

Any recommendations on backup courses or courses to play over the above two? We were thinking one WIekenberg: Big Wick, Verrando: Founders, AK Chin: Southern Dunes. 

Backups to Saguaro and Stadium - Both Troon North and Grayhawk courses cover 4 of the clear top 10 courses in the valley. So I'd start there. WeKoPa Cholla is really solid too, that would be another clear top 10 public here. Southern Dunes is a good call too. It's a great golf course.

 

Beyond that, I would look at TPC Champions. It's a really good layout and is well conditioned.

 

I'd look next to Whirlwind. Both are quality desert courses which are always in good shape. Cattail hosted an LPGA event earlier this spring. 

 

Wickenburg Ranch is awesome but it's private now. If you have a way of getting on it, do it. It's good. Not sure I'd put it over the Troon North, Wekopa and Grayhawk courses but it's somewhere near that level.

 

I'm the crazy one on the forum who doesn't really care for Verrado Founders. I think it's a typical early 00's design which hasn't aged all that well. It's fine, but, the greens have been so bad in the summer for the last few years that it's not worth returning until they resurface them (in my opinion of course, people love that layout on this forum...)

[puttnforthe8]

56 minutes ago, SilverBullets said:

are Verrado's summer greens still abysmal? The last few summers I played there the greens on Founders were just atrocious. It's like playing plinko. 

 

Not “abysmal”, but not great.  Playable at least.  Plinko is still possible…i guess it depends on cutting that morning

[412BryanC]

Thanks for all the input. We decided on TPC Champion and Troon North. We are still trying to decide between Grayhawk Raptor or We-Ko-Pa Saguaro for the third course. Saguaro is doing aerification from July 21-3rd and reopening the Aug. 4th so we aren't sure if we want to take a risk or do Greyhawk that opens July 28th from aerification. 

[puttnforthe8]

On 7/9/2025 at 6:25 PM, 412BryanC said:

Thanks for all the input. We decided on TPC Champion and Troon North. We are still trying to decide between Grayhawk Raptor or We-Ko-Pa Saguaro for the third course. Saguaro is doing aerification from July 21-3rd and reopening the Aug. 4th so we aren't sure if we want to take a risk or do Greyhawk that opens July 28th from aerification. 

A subpar Saguaro > than a good Grayhawk.  
 

just more peaceful and beautiful setting, design is better and more enjoyable.

Edited July 20 by puttnforthe8

[412BryanC]

4 minutes ago, puttnforthe8 said:

A subpar Saguaro > then a good Grayhawk.  
 

just more peaceful and beautiful setting, design is better and more enjoyable.

That's what out thinking was likely as well.

[SilverBullets]

17 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

A subpar Saguaro > then a good Grayhawk.  
 

just more peaceful and beautiful setting, design is better and more enjoyable.

I dont really agree with that. Saguaro is prettier golf, yes. Better setting with better views. However, Raptor is a great golf course. It's much more of a championship style course than Saguaro is. As much as I love Coore/Crenshaw and their philosophy, there is some repetition of holes there.

 

I think Raptor might be the best test of championship golf from any public course here. It's also pretty much always in better condition and has better greens that Wekopa. Raptor is much harder though (you can view that as good or bad). 

 

That said, I do firmly believe Saguaro is the best public here. I just think Raptor is right up there and close to it. 

[puttnforthe8]

40 minutes ago, SilverBullets said:

I dont really agree with that. Saguaro is prettier golf, yes. Better setting with better views. However, Raptor is a great golf course. It's much more of a championship style course than Saguaro is. As much as I love Coore/Crenshaw and their philosophy, there is some repetition of holes there.

 

I think Raptor might be the best test of championship golf from any public course here. It's also pretty much always in better condition and has better greens that Wekopa. Raptor is much harder though (you can view that as good or bad). 

 

That said, I do firmly believe Saguaro is the best public here. I just think Raptor is right up there and close to it. 

Fair point.  Just think Raptor has some really, really bad holes that are inexcusable….10 of course.  Think 18 is an average finishing hole.

 

but my items are mostly nits.  I do dislike how tough it is too.  Just not enjoyable anymore.  I think I was more in alignment 20 years ago when I hit the ball longer.  Now I can barely get it across a two lane road.

[SilverBullets]

17 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

Fair point.  Just think Raptor has some really, really bad holes that are inexcusable….10 of course.  Think 18 is an average finishing hole.

 

but my items are mostly nits.  I do dislike how tough it is too.  Just not enjoyable anymore.  I think I was more in alignment 20 years ago when I hit the ball longer.  Now I can barely get it across a two lane road.

haha makes sense. I enjoy the challenge of Raptor but I know everytime I'm there, I have to strike it well or the round is a grind. It's a demanding course and requires a good lot of thought to get out of there with a decent number. 

 

I know a lot of the longer term residents (I've only been here 10 years) hate the redesign they did, but, I think the last 3 holes provide an exciting finish. 3 really high risk/high reward holes. Not sure they are cohesive with the rest of the course but I think they are fun goles to play. You've got a par 3 that's some type of wedge and it's just as easy to make 5 as it is 3... a short par 4 which again.. just as easy to make 6 as it is 4 and then a reachable par 5 with trouble everywhere. Makes it a fun match play course.

 

I love Saguaro though. My only gripes are more or less nitpicks. Most people tend to ignore the fact that holes 4-7 are not exactly great holes. Holes 6 and 7 are the biggest whiffs for me there. 6 is a pretty good hole by itself but back-to-back with 7 and they then look so identical off the tee that it feels repetitive. 7 is a pretty bad golf hole because its not short enough to make it a real risk/reward hole. it's just a long iron or FW off the tee and wedge in. 

 

Both are great golf courses in my opinion

[jatrain]

Aguila this morning.  They punched last week, greens were slow but the ball

stayed on line if you hit it with pace.  A few patchy areas in fairways but overall good for July.  Pace was right at 4 hours going off early. 

[soregongolfer]

On 7/9/2025 at 6:25 PM, 412BryanC said:

Thanks for all the input. We decided on TPC Champion and Troon North. We are still trying to decide between Grayhawk Raptor or We-Ko-Pa Saguaro for the third course. Saguaro is doing aerification from July 21-3rd and reopening the Aug. 4th so we aren't sure if we want to take a risk or do Greyhawk that opens July 28th from aerification. 

Don't forget to buy some bug spray while you're down there.  

[412BryanC]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Everything is all booked and I think it’s going to be both Greyhawk courses, southern dunes and tpc stadium for the next time we head out there. Also good call on the bug spray since we would have never thought to bring it to the desert. 

[SilverBullets]

3 hours ago, 412BryanC said:

Thanks for all the input everyone. Everything is all booked and I think it’s going to be both Greyhawk courses, southern dunes and tpc stadium for the next time we head out there. Also good call on the bug spray since we would have never thought to bring it to the desert. 

Thats a great lineup. Have fun!

[chisag]

... Raven just aerated the back 9 yesterday and is closed to aerate the front 9 today. They will be heavily sanded and pretty much unplayable for at least a week. 

[soregongolfer]

17 hours ago, 412BryanC said:

Thanks for all the input everyone. Everything is all booked and I think it’s going to be both Greyhawk courses, southern dunes and tpc stadium for the next time we head out there. Also good call on the bug spray since we would have never thought to bring it to the desert. 

I got attacked by mosquitos while playing Raptor.  I was long on #6 (I think) and there are some bushes beyond the green.  I walked to my ball and got ripped.  Lesson learned. 😅  Southern Dunes is notorious for mosquitos.  So much so that they offer you bug spray.  

Edited July 16 by soregongolfer

[SilverBullets]

On 7/15/2025 at 10:53 PM, soregongolfer said:

I got attacked by mosquitos while playing Raptor.  I was long on #6 (I think) and there are some bushes beyond the green.  I walked to my ball and got ripped.  Lesson learned. 😅  Southern Dunes is notorious for mosquitos.  So much so that they offer you bug spray.  

Southern Dunes is more flies than anything (because of all the dairy farms in the immediate surrounding area)

 

I've never had a bug issue like that at Grayhawk but it doesn't really surprise me... Its the by product of the amount of water these courses put down. Stuff in the west valley gets REALLY bad. I've been at Verrado Victory when the mosquitos were so bad it was basically unplayable (everyone was skipping holes) 

[fore_life]

Southern dunes 100% has the worst mosquitoes of any course I’ve ever been on. Towels over the head to block them and constant buzzing in ears from those little turds

[SilverBullets]

14 hours ago, fore_life said:

Southern dunes 100% has the worst mosquitoes of any course I’ve ever been on. Towels over the head to block them and constant buzzing in ears from those little turds

Ive never seen anything like I did at Verrado Victory a couple summers ago. I think it was holes 4-6 where you couldnt stop the cart. The second you stopped every extremity was covered in mosquitos. I sat in the cart with towels on my legs (fortunately I had UV sleeves on but they were even trying to bite through that)... it was insane. We auto 2 putted the 4 green, sort of played 5 but didnt putt out (literally left a ball on the green) and skipped 6 altogether.