Lift, Clean & Place - Preferred Lies

[antip]

16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Appreciate that, but it doesn’t explicitly dictate the force being used to “set it down”. I don’t equate this to 14.2c/3. 

Interesting argument but ...

IMO, it is not complicated, the ball must be set down by hand but must not be "pushed into the ground". If a player consciously/intentionally places by pushing/pressing into the ground, there is a genuine likelihood (to be assessed) that the ball is in a wrong place.
 

Of course, in the real world, the actual force levels involved in setting down are going to cover a 'normal' range (we are not automatons) - but if the player is consciously/intentionally pressing the ball down so it stays still - the kind of language Argonne initially used above (setting off this interesting discussion) the warning bells should be ringing and penalty may be the appropriate outcome.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Interesting argument but ...

IMO, it is not complicated, the ball must be set down by hand but must not be "pushed into the ground". If a player consciously/intentionally places by pushing/pressing into the ground, there is a genuine likelihood (to be assessed) that the ball is in a wrong place.
 

Of course, in the real world, the actual force levels involved in setting down are going to cover a 'normal' range (we are not automatons) - but if the player is consciously/intentionally pressing the ball down so it stays still - the kind of language Argonne initially used above (setting off this interesting discussion) the warning bells should be ringing and penalty may be the appropriate outcome.

How can it be a wrong place when the ball is being placed on a new spot?  There is no original spot/lie in this situation. 

[antip]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

How can it be a wrong place when the ball is being placed on a new spot?  There is no original spot/lie in this situation. 

Agree that is an interesting question, for the reason you touch on. But pressing down consciously/intentionally with the result that the ball is in a different spot than what the rule requires (facts to be assessed), is breaching the requirements of E-3 in terms of where the ball may be played from. And the penalty statement states:

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.

[Hawkeye77]

You can’t alter the surface of the ground - place means what it means. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Agree that is an interesting question, for the reason you touch on. But pressing down consciously/intentionally with the result that the ball is in a different spot than what the rule requires (facts to be assessed), is breaching the requirements of E-3 in terms of where the ball may be played from. And the penalty statement states:

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.

I understand about the wrong place and penalty. But in this situation, where is the right place?  I suggest that there isn’t one until the player finishes placing the ball, and he may manoeuvre it so that he’s confident it isn’t going to move from there.  Particularly since he can’t replace it if natural forces cause it to move a few seconds later. 

[Hawkeye77]

 

1 hour ago, antip said:

Agree that is an interesting question, for the reason you touch on. But pressing down consciously/intentionally with the result that the ball is in a different spot than what the rule requires (facts to be assessed), is breaching the requirements of E-3 in terms of where the ball may be played from. And the penalty statement states:

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.

No, pressing down alters the surface of the ground. That’s all there is to it. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You can’t alter the surface of the ground - place means what it means. 

We’re not talking about altering the surface of the ground in this situation, just about gently pressing the ball on top of the weed. 

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, sui generis said:

Your post suggests that since you've not seen a worm cast in your entire life that they don't exist. 😉

 

If I had meant it I would have said so. As I did not, I did not mean it. Sometimes it is difficult to understand what another person writes.

 

My post reflected the dramatic differences in conditions around the globe. And I repeat, I have not yet seen any worm casts around here. Maybe I have not paid attention and there are plenty or there are not plenty. Nor I have heard anyone around here taking this issue up. If worm casts were common there is a high probability that someone had asked me whether it is allowed to "tee the ball up" on top of a worm cast.

[antip]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

I understand about the wrong place and penalty. But in this situation, where is the right place?  I suggest that there isn’t one until the player finishes placing the ball, and he may manoeuvre it so that he’s confident it isn’t going to move from there.  Particularly since he can’t replace it if natural forces cause it to move a few seconds later. 

Not correct. There is always a right place. In the special case of MLR E-3, the right place is the place on the ground within the correct relief area that the player has chosen and placed according to the requirements of the rule. If the ball is played from any other place, it was a wrong place.

MLR E-3 is massively misunderstood by a very large number of golfers. Some of the issues are discussed here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/permalink/4695372540518405/?mibextid=zDhOQc  

[antip]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

We’re not talking about altering the surface of the ground in this situation, just about gently pressing the ball on top of the weed. 

Let's stick with Argonne's words which were: "Press down slightly on the ball to ensure it's seated firmly". That is not definitive of whether there would or would not be a problem, we need precise facts and the answer depends on those facts. But IMO firmly seating a ball on a precarious teed up position has a real likelihood of being a breach. Gentle pressure onto stable ground likely would not. But if the player is consciously/deliberately seeking to ensure the ball does not move on uneven ground, there is a genuine risk of a rule breach so a player should be very cautious in pressing a ball down.

[Imp]

Many of us up here play in new england where the conditions in spring may frequently require MLR E3. But many don't play throughout the winter.

 

Those that do play throughout the winter in all conditions (outside of posting season) have more familiarity with *where* to place the ball in the new spot because it's E3 all winter. 

 

Barring any worms or raised tufts of grass, the forward part of a divot barely on the grass is my go-to. 

Edited February 14 by Imp

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

We’re not talking about altering the surface of the ground in this situation, just about gently pressing the ball on top of the weed. 

Yes. 
 

Live “weed”, blades of grass …..

 

Place the ball. If you have to “press” down to the point you’ve made the surface such that a ball that would otherwise roll away or move stays put, you are altering the surface. “Gently” is irrelevant - it either stays put of its own weight given the condition of the ground (fine), or you’ve had to alter the lie such that it stays put (breach). 
 

Common sense, ordinary use of the word place in the context of not altering the surface of the ground. If your description to an official starts with “I pressed” vs. “I placed” you’ve opened an understandable can of casting worms. 

Edited February 14 by Hawkeye77

[davep043]

16 hours ago, rogolf said:

Appreciate that, but it doesn’t explicitly dictate the force being used to “set it down”. I don’t equate this to 14.2c/3. 

14.2c/3 says you may not press the ball down, even when placing on a different spot than the original location.  The Clarification specifically says that doing so alters the lie of the ball, resulting in a Wrong Place infraction.  Remember that the Clarification discusses a single example, a single situation, but the concept applies to other similar situations.  The Clarification specifically separates the two potential actions, setting down versus pressing down, one is acceptable, one is not.  As to the amount of force used, a rule is never going to specify that, it goes to the intent of the Player.  If he's trying to press it down, he's pressing it down, if he's trying to set it down, its OK.  

Edited February 14 by davep043