Comments on swing- be gentle

Ray Jackson · February 19

I know what some of my issues are but curious what you see. I’m 52yrs old, 5’10 and 170lbs. I will be working on increasing spine angle on the downswing.

Ray Jackson · February 19

Couldn’t get both videos into one post

Hawkeye77 · February 19

Look pretty good hitting a ball - you’ve called their bluff! (Actually they aren’t bluffing just trying to help - hope you get some input and if not apparently try hitting a cat!)

The other stuff I’m puzzled about but in the spirit - I’m a little older, a little taller, a little heavier, enjoy walks on the beach and hope for world happiness.

Seriously, your swing isn’t bad and hope you get some help.

Edited February 19 by Hawkeye77

RayPlan · February 19

10 hours ago, Ray Jackson said:

I know what some of my issues are but curious what you see. I’m 52yrs old, 5’10 and 170lbs. I will be working on increasing spine angle on the downswing.

IMG_4483.mov 29.13 MB · 10 downloads

What kinds of problems are you having and what's your handicap? I'm not an expert, but that looks like a pretty good swing already.

Golfbeat · February 19

Very nice swing, maybe slightly too much bend in the right arm in the back swing? Overall very good though. Certainly better than mine.

Valtiel · February 19

11 hours ago, Ray Jackson said:

I know what some of my issues are but curious what you see. I’m 52yrs old, 5’10 and 170lbs. I will be working on increasing spine angle on the downswing.

IMG_4483.mov 29.13 MB · 11 downloads

The main thing i'm seeing is some very unusual wrist/grip stuff going back:

At about left arm parallel you have a massive amount of load in the left wrist, almost no hinge/load in the right, and your right hand is largely *off* the club with it being entirely in your fingers. You also have the same kind of unorthodox right thumb/forefinger connection that someone like Spieth uses. It feels like you're trying to keep your right hand completely "out" of the backswing and do everything with the left, and as such you're forced to bend your right arm a ton as @Golfbeat mentioned.

I've stuck Adam Scott there as a good "neutral" reference and you can see the notable differences in that right hand. Now this is a murky area where you can be doing a lot of things that work personally for you, but I would note that much of the above is pretty unorthodox and i'd be curious if there is an injury or mobility issue here you're trying to work around or if this is simply how you learned. It matters because:

At the top you "float load" a decent amount in that you add a ton *more* hinge in the left wrist that was already doing a lot of work and your right wrist finally loads a bit, but quite late. You get very narrow in transition as a result. This is why I wonder about injury/mobility because i'm seeing what almost looks like hypermobility in the left wrist and limited mobility in the right. That right hand being completely disconnected from the club and your left thumb here in a way that would be considered unusual and potentially "wrong", but not if you're working around an issue.

Regarding what you said about spine angle in the downswing, you never really want to "increase" things like that, rather reduce or eliminate things that are "decreasing" it. You don't really lose much at impact compared to address, but what you do lose is caused by your rotation in the backswing and how your right leg gets locked out very early. You're not really "early extending" there as many people set themselves up for by rotating incorrectly, but you aren't really gaining any depth either. If you watch your right foot going back you move towards favoring the ball of it as your rotation basically consists of straightening your back leg with that move. As a result you lose spine angle by the time you reach the top of the swing. Typically you'd like to see your weight slightly moving towards the *heel* as you push your right hip further back/up behind you which is what allows you to maintain your tilt up to the top. You rotate pretty well in the downswing though and you aren't succumbing to any of the typical "bad rotation" moves that cause early extension coming down, but the lack of depth of that right hip in the backswing is causing that spine angle loss.

iacas · February 19

30 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

At about left arm parallel you have a massive amount of load in the left wrist,

He's gotta work on that grip:

Ray Jackson · February 19

41 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The main thing i'm seeing is some very unusual wrist/grip stuff going back:

At about left arm parallel you have a massive amount of load in the left wrist, almost no hinge/load in the right, and your right hand is largely *off* the club with it being entirely in your fingers. You also have the same kind of unorthodox right thumb/forefinger connection that someone like Spieth uses. It feels like you're trying to keep your right hand completely "out" of the backswing and do everything with the left, and as such you're forced to bend your right arm a ton as @Golfbeat mentioned.

I've stuck Adam Scott there as a good "neutral" reference and you can see the notable differences in that right hand. Now this is a murky area where you can be doing a lot of things that work personally for you, but I would note that much of the above is pretty unorthodox and i'd be curious if there is an injury or mobility issue here you're trying to work around or if this is simply how you learned. It matters because:

At the top you "float load" a decent amount in that you add a ton *more* hinge in the left wrist that was already doing a lot of work and your right wrist finally loads a bit, but quite late. You get very narrow in transition as a result. This is why I wonder about injury/mobility because i'm seeing what almost looks like hypermobility in the left wrist and limited mobility in the right. That right hand being completely disconnected from the club and your left thumb here in a way that would be considered unusual and potentially "wrong", but not if you're working around an issue.

Regarding what you said about spine angle in the downswing, you never really want to "increase" things like that, rather reduce or eliminate things that are "decreasing" it. You don't really lose much at impact compared to address, but what you do lose is caused by your rotation in the backswing and how your right leg gets locked out very early. You're not really "early extending" there as many people set themselves up for by rotating incorrectly, but you aren't really gaining any depth either. If you watch your right foot going back you move towards favoring the ball of it as your rotation basically consists of straightening your back leg with that move. As a result you lose spine angle by the time you reach the top of the swing. Typically you'd like to see your weight slightly moving towards the *heel* as you push your right hip further back/up behind you which is what allows you to maintain your tilt up to the top. You rotate pretty well in the downswing though and you aren't succumbing to any of the typical "bad rotation" moves that cause early extension coming down, but the lack of depth of that right hip in the backswing is causing that spine angle loss.

@Valtiel yes the grip is a constant struggle as it feels like I regrip the club during the backswing for some reason and the right hand loses contact. I broke my right wrist as a kid but don't consciously feel any restrictions, but at 52yrs old everything seems to hurt so who knows! I have a quick left miss with fairway woods where the path seems fine but the face very closed which could be a byproduct of this grip issue. If I was shaking hands position with someone, my left wrist seems a little restricted on tilting down but no issues on cocking up, which may be why that left wrist hinges so much? Don't know the technical terms for that plane of movement with the wrist.

When I was learning the game as a teenager, I spent a lot of time swinging with just my left arm and my lead side definitely drove the swing as I was growing up. I also probably have mistaken width in the backswing as not loading the right wrist, but don't have the left wrist in sync with that concept.

When I use a Swingyde training aid the wrist and hand positions are better, as I think as the left wrist hinges excessively I have trouble keeping the right hand on the club. I will try and post videos swinging with the swingyde as a reference in a few days, once the weather improves here.

The getting very narrow in transition is also an issue i am trying to work out of, and its even more pronounced with driver.

I see what you're saying about the right leg locking out early which then restricts the hip turn and consequently hand depth. I have been trying to get pressure into the right foot early, right before takeaway (without swaying) and the leg locking out was maybe my cheat not to sway.

Appreciate all of the observations, they make a lot of sense. Time to get to work!

TheDeanAbides · February 19

1 hour ago, iacas said:

He's gotta work on that grip:

I'm not even sure how he's holding on to the club with that.

Ray Jackson · February 19

29 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm not even sure how he's holding on to the club with that.

Using the force young Jedi.......

TheDeanAbides · February 19

Just now, Ray Jackson said:

Using the force young Jedi.......

That makes perfect sense, Master.

KD1 · February 19

I was watching your first video trying to figure out why that driving range just "felt" so familiar and I couldn't place it. Scroll down to the second video and yep... I'm right down the road. ( I still haven't had a chance to play there )

No comment other than what has already been mentioned about your grip. You mentioned something about re-gripping but you can tell it's off at address. seemed that way to me anyway.

You said you know what some of your issues are. I'm curious if you're working with someone in the area?

Ray Jackson · February 19

8 hours ago, iacas said:

He's gotta work on that grip:

Okay worked on the grip today - my son said (and he was right) that my right hand was too on top of the grip and was creating a short-left thumb as well. The left thumb was not sitting in the thumb pad of the right hand. So, the right hand has rotated to the right, and down a fraction so now thumb pad sits ontop of left thumb better and right thumb is on top of the grip, not around it.

This has made it easier to hinge the club at left arm parallel, both wrists hinging better and the whole of the right hand is still on the grip.

Was able to hit a few balls in the house, now with what feels as the weaker right-hand position (but stronger from a control the grip) I do need to focus more on squaring the face more purposefully.

With the right leg retaining some bend I think I can feel the hands deeper but no idea until I video it all.

I have taken maybe a half dozen lessons over the last 38yrs, not working with anyone specifically, but do a lot of work with my son who's a top ranked junior in Texas. We both have decent knowledge of the swing and help each other out. He has an instructor, Andrew Lewis in Richardson.

My goals by spring are;

To gain some swing speed (isn't everyone!)

Get more confident with driver and consistent from round to round.

Improve strokes gained driving and approach and wedges from 50-70yds.

Putting is fine where it is, consistently strokes gained in that category.

Have a set of P-7CBs coming at beginning of March, have been using R9TP/R9B Royal Precision Rifle Flighted 6.0s split set the last few months. Just in time for first TXGA tournament at end of March ha ha.

iacas · February 20

2 hours ago, Ray Jackson said:

Okay worked on the grip today - my son said (and he was right) that my right hand was too on top of the grip and was creating a short-left thumb as well. The left thumb was not sitting in the thumb pad of the right hand. So, the right hand has rotated to the right, and down a fraction so now thumb pad sits ontop of left thumb better and right thumb is on top of the grip, not around it.

This has made it easier to hinge the club at left arm parallel, both wrists hinging better and the whole of the right hand is still on the grip.

Was able to hit a few balls in the house, now with what feels as the weaker right-hand position (but stronger from a control the grip) I do need to focus more on squaring the face more purposefully.

Your left hand grip is well across the palm. I think it's a bigger issue than your right hand.

Ray Jackson · February 20

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your left hand grip is well across the palm. I think it's a bigger issue than your right hand.

I Understand what you’re saying, it doesn’t start there, it’s across the fingers where they meet the palm. Small hands (no jokes please) so it could look like it’s more in the palm?

Will try and keep it in the fingers and see what the effect is.

Ray Jackson · February 20

4 minutes ago, Ray Jackson said:

I Understand what you’re saying, it doesn’t start there, it’s across the fingers where they meet the palm. Small hands (no jokes please) so it could look like it’s more in the palm?

Will try and keep it in the fingers and see what the effect is.

Will also be using reminder grips with the new irons so should be easier to keep the grip in my fingers.

iacas · February 20

1 minute ago, Ray Jackson said:

I Understand what you’re saying, it doesn’t start there, it’s across the fingers where they meet the palm. Small hands (no jokes please) so it could look like it’s more in the palm?

No. That's not why it looks that way. It's very diagonal.

You're like this:

It should be more like this:

Closer to across the base of all four fingers. You're deep into your index finger and almost entirely missing your pinkie finger.

TheDeanAbides · February 20

OP, did you perhaps base your grip loosely on Hogan's Five Lessons grip?

Ray Jackson · February 20

6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

OP, did you perhaps base your grip loosely on Hogan's Five Lessons grip?

That is very possible as I had the book as a teenager and still have it now. I am very open to the changes suggested though.

bladehunter · February 20

9 minutes ago, Ray Jackson said:

That is very possible as I had the book as a teenager and still have it now. I am very open to the changes suggested though.

Good attitude. Listen to iacas and Dean. Several years ago I cured the lead ( my left) hand grip in the palm deal and that extra speed you're looking for. I gained it. I’m a faster player anyway. But that unlocked several things. Getting the grip correct. Your move is pleasing. I can only guess that a proper grip will lead to more gains in speed and control than most. Well worth the work.

iacas · February 20

Knuckles are closer to parallel, more space between the grip and the wrist (looks shorter here as the left arm is angled away from the camera more than in your video), not much "flesh" left of the grip near the pinkie, because my pinkie is fully wrapped around the grip, not just barely touching the finger tip/pad of the pinkie finger.

swh0507 · February 20

Tin Cup agrees with everyone's comments. It always amazes me how accurate Tin Cup's description is.

Edited February 20 by swh0507

Ray Jackson · February 20

7 hours ago, Ray Jackson said:

That is very possible as I had the book as a teenager and still have it now. I am very open to the changes suggested though.

Not sure yet if this is what’s translating into grip issues at left arm parallel but it is how I learnt to grip it with my left hand. As you can see the grip is off the base of the pinkie finger into the palm a little.

GoGoErky · February 20

15 minutes ago, Ray Jackson said:

Not sure yet if this is what’s translating into grip issues at left arm parallel but it is how I learnt to grip it with my left hand. As you can see the grip is off the base of the pinkie finger into the palm a little.

Unless the club moved a lot in your hand you’re grip is nowhere near that

iacas · February 20

6 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Unless the club moved a lot in your hand you’re grip is nowhere near that

Agreed.

Additionally, don’t do that (don’t grip it like the Hogan drawing), @Ray Jackson.

Ray Jackson · February 20

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Agreed.

Additionally, don’t do that (don’t grip it like the Hogan drawing), @Ray Jackson.

The more I try and grip it only in the base of the fingers on the left hand, the more the hand seems to want to twist to the right and be a stronger grip i.e. 3+knuckles showing and it creates real tightness feeling in my fingers. This maybe something I have a physical limitation around but will try.

iacas · February 20

5 minutes ago, Ray Jackson said:

The more I try and grip it only in the base of the fingers on the left hand, the more the hand seems to want to twist to the right and be a stronger grip i.e. 3+knuckles showing and it creates real tightness feeling in my fingers. This maybe something I have a physical limitation around but will try.

The grip is round. I can grip the face pointing any of 360°.

Ray Jackson · February 20

1 minute ago, iacas said:

The grip is round. I can grip the face pointing any of 360°.

Yes but when i set the face at square to my target (lightly holding with my right hand) and then grip the club with my left, the left hand gets "strong". Maybe I should be doing what Scottie and Adam Scott do and grip it with both hands (try not to regrip at all) and then set the club down at square to target.

iacas · February 21

Don't grip the club on the ground. Easy way to encourage it to get up the palm.

vman · February 21

Could try a moulded trainer grip on, say, a spare 7 or 8 iron...ala Scottie Scheffler, it could help.

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