Driver Shafts-Hi/Lo vs Lo/Lo. Help me understand my fitting results

[J-Walker]

I’ve been through 2 driver shaft fittings this spring and the fitters both went two very different directions with me. I am 53, driver SS 104-112 (106 is my sweetspot), in to out club path, and neutral to 3° up on my AOA. 8 HDCP. 
 

First fitter put me in a Ventus Black VC+ 6X in standard 10.5° setting with the 13g weight forward in the toe of my QI35LS. Stock flight in this setup is a small draw with medium trajectory. Carry 250-265 with some nice runout. Spin in the 2200-2300 RPM range, with some heel shots spinning up to 3300+

 

2nd fitter put me in a Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 6S tipped 1” with my QI35LS turned open to 8.5° of loft with a more open face and the 13g weight in the back position of my driver head. Launch on this shaft is higher carrying 255-275 with spin also in the 2200-2300 RPM range, with heel shots spinning much lower around 2500. My stock shot is still a small draw on this shaft. Just a little higher. Even when I use this shaft in the stock 10.5° setting, it keeps my spin numbers lower. 

 

Dispersion is good on both shafts, but I’m stumped on the spin numbers. Has anyone around here had this type of experience before and can you help me understand why the IZ is helping keep my spin numbers down lower than the VB6X?

Edited April 6 by J-Walker

[thlongball]

In technical jargon and what should happen in testing, NO WAY.  However the IZ profile obviously fits your swing action and feel way better than the velo+ hence the better numbers.

 

 

Edited March 20 by thlongball

[Urb]

Need launch, ball speed and smash.

 

IZ probably getting you center face more often.  

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, J-Walker said:

Dispersion is good on both shafts, but I’m stumped on the spin numbers. Has anyone around here had this type of experience before and can you help me understand why the IZ is helping keep my spin numbers down lower than the VB6X?

 

Shaft "launch characteristics" actually only play only a minor part at best in the launch/spin you'll actually see.  The two biggest factors in launch and spin  with a driver are 1) face impact location and 2) dynamic loft delivered.      Slightly higher launch with a bit less spin usually means a slightly higher impact on the face - but that's not the only possibility.  Different stiffness feels from the two different shafts can potentially effect the swing and how you deliver the head into impact in a lot of different ways.

 

Were the tee heights exactly the same for the two fittings?

Do you have the dynamic loft numbers?

Did you use anything during either of the fittings to see face impact location and consistency?  e.g. impact tape or foot powder spray.

 

Edited March 20 by Stuart_G

[dsmil]

I'd guess higher impact on the face with the IZ.

[WristySwing]

11 hours ago, J-Walker said:

I’ve been through 2 driver shaft fittings this spring and the fitters both went two very different directions with me. I am 53, driver SS 104-112 (106 is my sweetspot), in to out club path, and neutral to 3° up on my AOA. 8 HDCP. 
 

First fitter put me in a Ventus Black VC+ 6X in standard 10.5° setting with the 13g weight forward in the toe of my QI35LS. Stock flight in this setup is a small draw with medium trajectory. Carry 250-265 with some nice runout. Spin in the 2200-2300 RPM range, with some heel shots spinning up to 3300+

 

2nd fitter put me in a Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 6S with my QI35LS turned open to 8.5° of loft with a more open face and the 13g weight in the back position of my driver head. Launch on this shaft is higher carrying 255-275 with spin also in the 2200-2300 RPM range, with heel shots spinning much lower around 2500. My stock shot is still a small draw on this shaft. Just a little higher. Even when I use this shaft in the stock 10.5° setting, it keeps my spin numbers lower. 

 

Dispersion is good on both shafts, but I’m stumped on the spin numbers. Has anyone around here had this type of experience before and can you help me understand why the IZ is helping keep my spin numbers down lower than the VB6X?

 

Because shafts don't do F all to spin or launch, they are purely a "feel" metric. How is every body ahead of me ignoring loft? It's the MOST important metric when it comes to impacting spin. You have 2* lower loft on the IZ setup than you do on the VB+. Every degree of loft is ~300RPMs of spin. Heel shot on 10.5 = 3300, heel shot on 8.5 = 2500. What is that? Roughly 800 RPMs difference at 2* of loft, therefore, ~400RPMs difference per degree of loft. Of course there is going to be some flux in the spin rate due to where you hit it unless you can argue you are hitting it EXACTLY in the same spot each time.

I would be more concerned that your carry numbers are so low with the VB given your SS. The IZ is a much better setup in terms of efficiency.

Edited March 20 by WristySwing

[Stuart_G]

23 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

How is every body ahead of me ignoring loft?

 

Basically because (as I did say early) it's dynamic loft that really matters, not the static loft.

[J-Walker]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

Were the tee heights exactly the same for the two fittings?

Do you have the dynamic loft numbers?

Did you use anything during either of the fittings to see face impact location and consistency?  e.g. impact tape or foot powder spray.

 

Thanks for sharing this, Stuart_G. Tee height the same. I didn’t pay enough attention to dynamic loft, but I expect that is what changed between the two. Impact tape used in both fittings. Strike location similar, but low misses were not quite as low on the face with the IZ.

[J-Walker]

1 hour ago, WristySwing said:

 

Because shafts don't do F all to spin or launch, they are purely a "feel" metric. How is every body ahead of me ignoring loft? It's the MOST important metric when it comes to impacting spin. You have 2* lower loft on the IZ setup than you do on the VB+. Every degree of loft is ~300RPMs of spin. Heel shot on 10.5 = 3300, heel shot on 8.5 = 2500. What is that? Roughly 800 RPMs difference at 2* of loft, therefore, ~400RPMs difference per degree of loft. Of course there is going to be some flux in the spin rate due to where you hit it unless you can argue you are hitting it EXACTLY in the same spot each time.

I would be more concerned that your carry numbers are so low with the VB given your SS. The IZ is a much better setup in terms of efficiency.

Thanks, WristySwing. This makes a lot of sense also. I did mention in my OP that even with the driver set at 10.5° with both shafts, (which were both present during my second fitting), I noticed improved spin numbers from the IZ. Lowering to 8.5° did lower spin a little more yet. Especially on the mishits. 

[WristySwing]

1 minute ago, J-Walker said:

Thanks, WristySwing. This makes a lot of sense also. I did mention in my OP that even with the driver set at 10.5° with both shafts, (which were both present during my second fitting), I noticed improved spin numbers from the IZ. Lowering to 8.5° did lower spin a little more yet. Especially on the mishits. 

 

Ah, I missed that line. You can chalk that up to one of those "oh well" moments about fitting. Sometimes some shafts just work better than others and there is no rhyme or reason to it. For example, why do some long drive guys that swing well over 130mph absolutely smash 40g Ladies flex shafts but guys on here who swing barely 105mph claim they can't hit anything unless it is the stiffest, lowest torque TX model shafts? It all boils down to feel and how that feeling translates into you being able to hit the middle of head more often with a good face-path relationship conducive to minimal sidespin and adequate launch and spin windows.

[ScooterMcTavish]

10 hours ago, thlongball said:

In technical jargon and what should happen in testing, NO WAY.  

 

Based on all the fitting horror stories I read, this is 100% the correct answer.

 

Key difference to me is not the spin - it is that you moved the weight for each of the different shafts.  So without leaving the weight in the same position, it is difficult to assess how this affected launch or spin. 

 

Second, you mentioned that 8.5* had the face more open.  If the face is open, then you're not squaring it back up properly, effectively adding more loft to it than the adjusted 8.5*.  So another variable.

 

So you've changed three variables (shaft, weight position, loft), making it extremely difficult to differentiate what difference the shaft itself made.

 

To me, the best way to compare is to change the shaft only, and compare at the same settings.  Although there may be flight, directional, and spin issues, one shaft should differentiate itself with consistency of strike and smash factor.  Once you have the shaft selected, then mess with the weights and loft to optimize trajectory and backspin.  And also be aware of your optimal numbers (mainly launch angle and backspin for your SS and AoA).  If you cannot get the "better" shaft within spitting distance of this, then I'd try some additional shafts.

[J-Walker]

26 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

Based on all the fitting horror stories I read, this is 100% the correct answer.

 

Key difference to me is not the spin - it is that you moved the weight for each of the different shafts.  So without leaving the weight in the same position, it is difficult to assess how this affected launch or spin. 

 

Second, you mentioned that 8.5* had the face more open.  If the face is open, then you're not squaring it back up properly, effectively adding more loft to it than the adjusted 8.5*.  So another variable.

 

So you've changed three variables (shaft, weight position, loft), making it extremely difficult to differentiate what difference the shaft itself made.

 

To me, the best way to compare is to change the shaft only, and compare at the same settings.  Although there may be flight, directional, and spin issues, one shaft should differentiate itself with consistency of strike and smash factor.  Once you have the shaft selected, then mess with the weights and loft to optimize trajectory and backspin.  And also be aware of your optimal numbers (mainly launch angle and backspin for your SS and AoA).  If you cannot get the "better" shaft within spitting distance of this, then I'd try some additional shafts.

Thanks, Scooter. I should have added also in the OP that we did start with the exact same loft and weight placement at the beginning of the second fitting. 10.5° with 13g weight forward in the toe position. Tried five or six different shafts in that exact setting. Once the fitter felt strong about the IZ, that’s when the change of weight position and loft occurred.

 

As for the better shaft, I did expect the Ventus to outperform the IZ when dialed in. But for me, it didn’t. The flex difference between the two is noticeable. I suppose in the end it is about how I load and unload each one.

Edited March 20 by J-Walker

[Stuart_G]

46 minutes ago, J-Walker said:

Strike location similar

 

"Similar" isn't really exact enough.  Even just 1/4" up or down can result in a difference in the spin of ~500 rpm.   Maybe even more with the weight in the forward position.

[thlongball]

Trying to makes sense of it I’ve found can be a rabbit hole with no end in sight.  If it works it works.

[ScooterMcTavish]

2 hours ago, J-Walker said:

Thanks, Scooter. I should have added also in the OP that we did start with the exact same loft and weight placement at the beginning of the second fitting. 10.5° with 13g weight forward in the toe position. Tried five or six different shafts in that exact setting. Once the fitter felt strong about the IZ, that’s when the change of weight position and loft occurred.

 

As for the better shaft, I did expect the Ventus to outperform the IZ when dialed in. But for me, it didn’t. The flex difference between the two is noticeable. I suppose in the end it is about how I load and unload each one.

 

Hey J-Walker,

 

Although you swing the club much harder than me, the two shafts are quite dissimilar, so I now understand all of the fitting changes.

 

That VC Black shaft is fairly stout, with an extra firm handle and tip.  The IZ looks to be much softer in the handle, and especially the mid compared to the Ventus.

 

I have been through a very similar struggle lately, where I had felt going to a firmer handled driver shaft may work well, as it had worked pretty well in my irons and FWs.  Nope.  Was never able to make it work, as my swing sequence for driver is apparently very, very dependent on feeling some load as part of my release timing.  This is the third (or fourth, or fifth) time I've tried to make this conversion, and simply have been unable to make it work. 

 

So yes, this looks like a case of how you load the shaft, and your need to feel some load to assist with the timing of your sequence and release.  There are pluses and minuses to this.

 

Plus: You'll be comfortable and confident in your swing, with a predictable ball flight.  Sounds like your swing and timing are already set.

 

Minus: I believe you'll never hit the softer-handled shaft as far as you'd hit the Ventus.  With my last experiment, OMG, I saw LM numbers that I thought were a decade in the past.  Problem is it was only 20% of my shots just due to me not being able to consistently release at the right time. 

 

Only other thought I had was if you could find something "in between" the two shafts you landed on.  Seems to me a Ventus Blue might be worth a swing, or even a Tensei Black 1K.  Both of these should be a little softer in the hands than the Ventus Black, but still fairly stout to withstand your lashing of the ball.  

[J-Walker]

1 hour ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

Hey J-Walker,

 

Although you swing the club much harder than me, the two shafts are quite dissimilar, so I now understand all of the fitting changes.

 

That VC Black shaft is fairly stout, with an extra firm handle and tip.  The IZ looks to be much softer in the handle, and especially the mid compared to the Ventus.

 

I have been through a very similar struggle lately, where I had felt going to a firmer handled driver shaft may work well, as it had worked pretty well in my irons and FWs.  Nope.  Was never able to make it work, as my swing sequence for driver is apparently very, very dependent on feeling some load as part of my release timing.  This is the third (or fourth, or fifth) time I've tried to make this conversion, and simply have been unable to make it work. 

 

So yes, this looks like a case of how you load the shaft, and your need to feel some load to assist with the timing of your sequence and release.  There are pluses and minuses to this.

 

Plus: You'll be comfortable and confident in your swing, with a predictable ball flight.  Sounds like your swing and timing are already set.

 

Minus: I believe you'll never hit the softer-handled shaft as far as you'd hit the Ventus.  With my last experiment, OMG, I saw LM numbers that I thought were a decade in the past.  Problem is it was only 20% of my shots just due to me not being able to consistently release at the right time. 

 

Only other thought I had was if you could find something "in between" the two shafts you landed on.  Seems to me a Ventus Blue might be worth a swing, or even a Tensei Black 1K.  Both of these should be a little softer in the hands than the Ventus Black, but still fairly stout to withstand your lashing of the ball.  

Appreciate your thoughts, Scooter. Thank you for taking the time to share some of your experiences as well. Time and a little bit of trial will probably bring some conclusion to my experiences thus far. I have a fundamentally healthy and strong golf swing, and have always adapted to whatever clubs I hit. I think what I’m going through is trying to adapt less and let the fitting work for me. I’m holding onto both shafts right now so I can let this play out for a while. The IZ 6S has been a pleasant surprise for sure.