What’s the deal with Lab patents and all the other zero torque putters?

[bluedot]

17 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I’d say Bryson is Bryson.  Him using or not using a lab or zero torque putter is not evidence of anything other than he doesn’t use it.   
 

Bryson, nor any other one person is a validator of technology, equipment, or style of putting.

Bingo.

 

Going from the instance to the generalization is always dangerous, but BCD takes that to another level completely.

 

His driver is a Krank with a swing weight of B9.  (Think about that for a moment.)  Not only are his irons single length, but the reported swing weight is C7.5, with a 73 degree lie angle.  He also uses Jumbo Max XL grips.

 

He gets results from this setup, without question.  But just as what he DOES use isn't a reasonable commentary on the efficacy of more "standard" golf clubs, what he does NOT use isn't particularly instructive, either.  He is, in every sense, an equipment outlier, and not to be taken seriously by the rest of us.

[bladehunter]

9 minutes ago, Loose_Ferrule said:

Your comment was that he hadn't become more popular with "Golf Fans" which is ridiculous when you watch the US Open and the PGA everyone wanted him to win. And this in turn makes "Golf Fans" watch his You Tube channel, so arguably he is more popular than when he was on the PGA Tour.

 

Full Disclosure...I can't stand the guys and think he's a complete phony but he's won over millions of people.

See I’m opposite. I’m a huge fan of his game. And I think he’s one of the more genuine players.  Probably because i understand his social awkwardness. 
 

Yet I don’t follow him anywhere now. Because I’m not a social media person. And I don’t watch LIV.  And the majority of pga tour fans are same. The numbers don’t lie.  A lot of his followers on social media , follow him for entertainment, and they don’t watch golf.  Or if they do it’s long drive and influencers. Not pga tour play.  These aren’t the same thing. 

[Loose_Ferrule]

7 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

 

While you are here...what is your take on the topic of patents and putter torque?

I tried a DF3 for 6 weeks last ( 20 rounds ) year and it wasn't for me. As one posted previously mentioned, I believe if you have more of a straight back straight through stroke and have been a face balanced player it is likely an easier transition and it will have a better chance of working for that player. 

 

I'm no scientist and don't have any evidence to back it up but I don't believe any putter is zero torque. Play with what suits your stroke and eye and have fun.

 

Patents aren't my specialty either but it seems that other manufacturers ( of any product ) or their lawyers can seem to find their way around things, so products that are successful will always be copied. 

[Pnwpingi210]

41 minutes ago, Loose_Ferrule said:

I tried a DF3 for 6 weeks last ( 20 rounds ) year and it wasn't for me. As one posted previously mentioned, I believe if you have more of a straight back straight through stroke and have been a face balanced player it is likely an easier transition and it will have a better chance of working for that player. 

 

I'm no scientist and don't have any evidence to back it up but I don't believe any putter is zero torque. Play with what suits your stroke and eye and have fun.

 

Patents aren't my specialty either but it seems that other manufacturers ( of any product ) or their lawyers can seem to find their way around things, so products that are successful will always be copied. 

Good post.  Appreciate the approach to sharing your opinion as opinion vs some indisputable scientific fact.🍻

[Loose_Ferrule]

6 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Good post.  Appreciate the approach to sharing your opinion as opinion vs some indisputable scientific fact.🍻

I keep my Cliff Klaven rants and tangents for the wife....she knows I'm full of it....

[Phebus]

18 hours ago, bunta said:

I want a zero torque driver.

 

I dont wanna ever miss a fairway ever again.

You need to just hit the driver with your thumbs off. 

[Red4282]

From arguing about LAB to arguing about Bryson, well done!

[Jeff58]

3 hours ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

 

While you are here...what is your take on the topic of patents and putter torque?

While expected, it’s unfortunate that the initial question hasn’t been addressed. IMO there is an interesting dynamic in play. Since Lab won’t likely see this…

 

We have major manufacturers blatantly creating and exhibiting what appears to be virtually identical products, both from a visual and conceptual perspective. The appearance is that they have violated a patent or patents. 
 

What should then be almost as obvious is that Callaway/Odyssey couldn’t possibly be what foolish. What we have here is bait. They would like nothing more than for Lab to attempt to enforce their patents in a legal forum. Since Lab hasn’t initiated action (as far as I know anyway), that is the likely scenario.

[StoutKing]

4 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

While expected, it’s unfortunate that the initial question hasn’t been addressed. IMO there is an interesting dynamic in play. Since Lab won’t likely see this…

 

We have major manufacturers blatantly creating and exhibiting what appears to be virtually identical products, both from a visual and conceptual perspective. The appearance is that they have violated a patent or patents. 
 

What should then be almost as obvious is that Callaway/Odyssey couldn’t possibly be what foolish. What we have here is bait. They would like nothing more than for Lab to attempt to enforce their patents in a legal forum. Since Lab hasn’t initiated action (as far as I know anyway), that is the likely scenario.

labgolf has not commented in a few weeks.  Maybe so.

[jda]

10 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

While expected, it’s unfortunate that the initial question hasn’t been addressed. IMO there is an interesting dynamic in play. Since Lab won’t likely see this…

 

We have major manufacturers blatantly creating and exhibiting what appears to be virtually identical products, both from a visual and conceptual perspective. The appearance is that they have violated a patent or patents. 
 

What should then be almost as obvious is that Callaway/Odyssey couldn’t possibly be what foolish. What we have here is bait. They would like nothing more than for Lab to attempt to enforce their patents in a legal forum. Since Lab hasn’t initiated action (as far as I know anyway), that is the likely scenario.

 

Did you read the patents?  Is there any doubt in your mind that these are new and/or that somebody actually copied them exactly?  I do not mean to insult, but most of the people posting on here have not even read them.  What did you see in the first few pages that did not address the patents?  If you want to know what LAB is going to do about them, then I do not know if anybody will ever know the answer to this.

 

Some of the folks want to bash some of the discussion on here, but most of this was covered early in the thread - a patent has to be new (not public domain) and also be followed 100%.  Most of what LAB does was done before by other club makers and could easily be argued as public knowledge/domain - this is undeniable even if the fanbois don't want to admit it.  It is not likely that they followed the patents 100% either.

 

What we likely have is a glamour patent - file to brag/show that you have one knowing that it will never be enforced or used.  Nobody will know any different until/unless a suit is filed and a judge makes a ruling.  If nothing happens, then this is likely correctly.  Lawsuits are also subject to discovery which can be really ugly for some companies - LAB might have to turn over all emails, texts and other documents related to design, marketing their design and everything else.  I don't care who you are, there is always something that looks bad in there even if you are on the up and up.  Nearly no company wants to go through this.  Lastly, the ones with the money almost always win unless it is a super easy case where a new idea was copied 100% - LAB does not likely have the money to fight a long legal battle with Cally... which kinda makes me sad a bit for the small guy.

[Jeff58]

1 hour ago, jda said:

Did you read the patents?

[Loose_Ferrule]

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

From arguing about LAB to arguing about Bryson, well done!

Yes, and called myself out on it.  

 

I'm ok to admit when I've made a mistake or am in the wrong.

 

You can go back to arguing with everyone, I'll see myself out.

 

 

[Red4282]

7 minutes ago, Loose_Ferrule said:

Yes, and called myself out on it.  

 

I'm ok to admit when I've made a mistake or am in the wrong.

 

You can go back to arguing with everyone, I'll see myself out.

 

 

Nah I was being humorous, sometimes these threads feel like the old monte python skit, where you pay someone to argue with you..

 

[Loose_Ferrule]

3 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Nah I was being humorous, sometimes these threads feel like the old monte python skit, where you pay someone to argue with you..

 

Or like the one with the soldier who gets his arms and legs cut off and still wants to keep fighting😂

[Pnwpingi210]

9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Nah I was being humorous, sometimes these threads feel like the old monte python skit, where you pay someone to argue with you..

 

This is brilliant and accurate.

[Pnwpingi210]

I find it helpful to read hostile responses like in threads like this as if they were coming from Vizzini in the princess bride.  Adds some humor and levity to how I perceive 

 

Edited April 2 by Pnwpingi210

[jda]

Since people ACTUALLY asked for proof and did not otherwise believe some of us that this happened, here is LAB again bashing on claims of other putter manufacturers.  Notice the crickets since some of these got posted.  Maybe asking for proof was just rhetorical or an ask-hole type of deal?  Maybe it is just OK to ask for proof but then post memes about the people who provide it?

 

Let the responses about how LAB is right and that Ping is stupid commence.  I have no opinion on the actual subject here, just that LAB is out there bashing other brands claims while offering nothing substantial about their own.  I probably agree with LAB more than I don't but still incredibly bad form, this.

 

[Pnwpingi210]

19 minutes ago, jda said:

Since people ACTUALLY asked for proof and did not otherwise believe some of us that this happened, here is LAB again bashing on claims of other putter manufacturers.  Notice the crickets since some of these got posted.  Maybe asking for proof was just rhetorical or an ask-hole type of deal?  Maybe it is just OK to ask for proof but then post memes about the people who provide it?

 

Let the responses about how LAB is right and that Ping is stupid commence.  I have no opinion on the actual subject here, just that LAB is out there bashing other brands claims while offering nothing substantial about their own.  I probably agree with LAB more than I don't but still incredibly bad form, this.

 

This is not a “bash” nor were the other examples you posted (lab disagreeing with Betti and somebody else) a “trash”. It’s a company with and opinion disagree with another manufactures claims in a respectful manner.  
 

 

you’re making something out of nothing.

Edited April 3 by Pnwpingi210
Edit your to you’re

[jda]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

This is not a “bash” nor were the other examples you posted (lab disagreeing with Betti and somebody else) a “trash”. It’s a company with and opinion disagree with another manufactures claims in a respectful manner.  
 

 

you’re making something out of nothing.

 

There it is.  More excuses, as predicted.  None of these other companies come onto LAB threads and do this to them at all... let alone without proof of their products claims or their competitors.  Fanboi work.  Do you get a free hat, or something?  Is there a secret handshake?

 

I know that sense, intelligence have left this thread, but the definition of bash is to severely criticize (Oxford Dictionary).  Saying that a manufacturer claim is 100% bunk is pretty severe.

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, jda said:

 

There it is.  More excuses, as predicted.  None of these other companies come onto LAB threads and do this to them at all... let alone without proof of their products claims or their competitors.  Fanboi work.  Do you get a free hat, or something?  Is there a secret handshake?

 

I know that sense, intelligence have left this thread, but the definition of bash is to severely criticize (Oxford Dictionary).  Saying that a manufacturer claim is 100% bunk is pretty severe.

Ad hominem attack of me because I disagree with your statement. In direct response that, I don’t own a lab nor have I.  Pointing out the flaws in the logic or rhetoric you are using does not make me or anyone else a fanboy (fanboi is not in the oxford dictionary.)

 

The post lab responded to used bunk.  Lab agreed and said there is almost zero data to support those claims.  A reasonable person reading that is not going to take that as bashing

[jda]

Do you have proof that no reasonable person took that as bashing?  Not a single one?  /snark

 

Enough non? reasonable people took their actions as bashing that LAB has stopped doing it and have limited their presence and responses on this forum and social media to just commenting on their own products.  I am not going to post PMs and other private conversations, but write LAB and ask them if you don't believe me.  What you are likely to get is that LAB agreed with the feedback of these people who you classified as non-reasonable that they acted poorly.

 

I commend them for this.  This is a positive.  I hope that they keep it up.

Edited April 3 by jda

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, jda said:

Do you have proof that no reasonable person took that as bashing?  Not a single one?  /snark

 

Enough non? reasonable people took their actions as bashing that LAB has stopped doing it and have limited their presence and responses on this forum and social media to just commenting on their own products.  I am not going to post PMs and other private conversations, but write LAB and ask them if you don't believe me.  What you are likely to get is that LAB agreed with the feedback of these people who you classified as non-reasonable that they acted poorly.  If you get a private response that says otherwise and post it, I could probably be persuaded to post the ones that I have... LAB wrote me originally, BTW.

 

I commend them for this.  This is a positive.  I hope that they keep it up.

I’m responding directly to the snippets you have posted.  I haven’t looked at each and every post lab made, nor do I care to or intend to.  
 

In this case a reasonable person is a construct, not an actual person.  It’s a commonly used and a legally accepted practice. 

[labgolf]

Holy Crap! This thread is nuts!!! I can't address anything on the IP side as it relates to legal action unfortunately. On the other stuff, a couple of points:

1. No, i cannot say with a straight face that our tech is 100%, universally better for everyone, particularly not for so many of us who have used torquing putters our whole lives. If I said that, I imagine I did so with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I DO believe that its better for WAY more people than not and my experience over the last 7 years has only served to re-affirm. Even those who struggle, we have found that with a little instruction on how to specifically unlock our tech, most people find gains. I have absolutely seen folks who even WITH our instruction, still putt better with torquing putters but its prettyb rare if we are actually able to get in there and help. It is a different thing after all and there is virtually ZERO curriculum around this new category.

 

2. I would never "bash" ping. Of all the companies out there, they are by far the most ethical and care about the quality of their product and the happiness of their customers more than the other manufacturers. I credit the fact that they are still a family owned business with values rather than so many other OEMs that are multiple generations removed from their founders and now run by folks who prioritize bottom lines over everything else. That said, the narrative around torque fitting/stroke type did come from PING but I am certain they believed it when they started down that road. But I have never actual seen the data to support it and in the meantime have seen WAY more players who's experiences do not line up with the theory. It all started to make a lot of sense why my personal experience which was almost the dead opposite of the narrative when I saw what torquing putters did in the revealer. I don't know about you, but in the face balanced category, I was basically convinced that FB did what LAB putters do in motion. But again, I believe they absolutely had/have ethical and golf forward intentions with the theory.

 

3. I understand why me commenting on other companies threads rubs people the wrong way and yes, I have backed off a bit, mostly in the interest of time. I wish I could spend more time here because its truly my favorite thing. I doubt LAB would be where it is without WRX and a few other platforms. The real time feedback and interaction has been invaluable.  somebody made a point about how you don't see other companies doing the same thing. Here's why I think that is: first and most importantly, they aren't here and aren't reading this stuff. Sorry to sound cynical but in the last 7 years I have been monumentally disappointed to find out about the inner workings of these companies and how little they care about their customers. To be clear, I am not saying that everyone that works for one of the big companies are evil. Not in the least. There are SO many great folks inside the walls of all of them. From R&D teams to tour staff to sales reps, amazing people and golf junkies everywhere. BUT, way to many of the decision makers are coming from a sadly unethical and value-less place. It is a market share war and winning the war is ALL they care about. I'm not pretending that we are doing charity work at LAB. We are as interested in a buck as anyone else but our experience thus far has shown that being ethical, caring about your customers and being profitable are NOT mutually exclusive. The other reason they don't jump on other peoples threads is because there is the WEIRDEST unspoken agreement in Carlsbad not to call each other out on their BS because they are all full of BS! The PXG putter is a great example of what I am talking about. The Allen was introduced as a torque free putter. They basically re-packaged our entire marketing message and acted as though they were the first to think of this concept. Meanwhile ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. from a torque poundage standpoint, the ALLEN has more torque than an anser style putter or many other conventional putters. Sure, it sits square at address, but the moment you start moving it, the face fights just like an other putter. they even went so far as to make their own device to prove the claim and when we got our hands on one, we found that the device ads enough friction keep the putter steady at lower swing speeds. the worst part is THEY KNOW this. They know exactly what they are doing and they are simply preying on those who don't know enough to call them out. They are intentionally deceiving consumers. I get it, calling them out is "not proper" and "not how things are done", "poor form" or whatever. But if we don't do it, who's gonna? And don't you believe they should be called out? I think so many of us have become too comfortable accepting that its just ok for these companies to promise 10 more yards every six months. I think it sucks and I'm tired of it.  For us, we would not even exist if we cared about how "things are traditionally done." These companies, as you are now seeing before our eyes, certainly don't care about us and have no problem doing ridiculous things behind the scenes to sabotage us. First they tried to discredit the tech. That didn't work so now they are trying to copy the tech. We even got word that one of the OEMs threatened to pull business from one of our grip manufacturers if they didn't delay our shipments. true story! We don't have the budget or the market share not to face this competition head on. If not we'd be put out of business like SO many companies that have tried to take these companies on. And again, I get how it looks to some but like I said, if we did it the way everyone else does and didn't call folks out on the false advertising, we'd be yesterdays news.

 

Times have changed. This consumer generation is more educated and aware of the realities of the products they buy than at any point in history. We as consumers have the information to support who we want with all, or at least most of the facts. Social media has made it so that we no longer need to take the word of those trying to sell us stuff. LAB is not exempt from that either! If me defending our product and calling out BS is more of a turn off for you than companies knowingly deceiving consumers and bullying smaller companies with dollars over IP stuff, that is absolutely your right. It bums me out that we can't win 'em all but thats a reality we've had to get comfortable with.

 

I have only read snipets of this thread so if there are questions that have come up that aren't directly related to legal action about IP (feel free to ask about IP in general and I'll do my best while protecting the company) feel free to ask away. I have a little time today so I should be able to respond to some. Thanks for listening to my TED talk!

[DTorres]

28 minutes ago, labgolf said:

Holy Crap! This thread is nuts!!! I can't address anything on the IP side as it relates to legal action unfortunately. On the other stuff, a couple of points:

1. No, i cannot say with a straight face that our tech is 100%, universally better for everyone, particularly not for so many of us who have used torquing putters our whole lives. If I said that, I imagine I did so with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I DO believe that its better for WAY more people than not and my experience over the last 7 years has only served to re-affirm. Even those who struggle, we have found that with a little instruction on how to specifically unlock our tech, most people find gains. I have absolutely seen folks who even WITH our instruction, still putt better with torquing putters but its prettyb rare if we are actually able to get in there and help. It is a different thing after all and there is virtually ZERO curriculum around this new category.

 

2. I would never "bash" ping. Of all the companies out there, they are by far the most ethical and care about the quality of their product and the happiness of their customers more than the other manufacturers. I credit the fact that they are still a family owned business with values rather than so many other OEMs that are multiple generations removed from their founders and now run by folks who prioritize bottom lines over everything else. That said, the narrative around torque fitting/stroke type did come from PING but I am certain they believed it when they started down that road. But I have never actual seen the data to support it and in the meantime have seen WAY more players who's experiences do not line up with the theory. It all started to make a lot of sense why my personal experience which was almost the dead opposite of the narrative when I saw what torquing putters did in the revealer. I don't know about you, but in the face balanced category, I was basically convinced that FB did what LAB putters do in motion. But again, I believe they absolutely had/have ethical and golf forward intentions with the theory.

 

3. I understand why me commenting on other companies threads rubs people the wrong way and yes, I have backed off a bit, mostly in the interest of time. I wish I could spend more time here because its truly my favorite thing. I doubt LAB would be where it is without WRX and a few other platforms. The real time feedback and interaction has been invaluable.  somebody made a point about how you don't see other companies doing the same thing. Here's why I think that is: first and most importantly, they aren't here and aren't reading this stuff. Sorry to sound cynical but in the last 7 years I have been monumentally disappointed to find out about the inner workings of these companies and how little they care about their customers. To be clear, I am not saying that everyone that works for one of the big companies are evil. Not in the least. There are SO many great folks inside the walls of all of them. From R&D teams to tour staff to sales reps, amazing people and golf junkies everywhere. BUT, way to many of the decision makers are coming from a sadly unethical and value-less place. It is a market share war and winning the war is ALL they care about. I'm not pretending that we are doing charity work at LAB. We are as interested in a buck as anyone else but our experience thus far has shown that being ethical, caring about your customers and being profitable are NOT mutually exclusive. The other reason they don't jump on other peoples threads is because there is the WEIRDEST unspoken agreement in Carlsbad not to call each other out on their BS because they are all full of BS! The PXG putter is a great example of what I am talking about. The Allen was introduced as a torque free putter. They basically re-packaged our entire marketing message and acted as though they were the first to think of this concept. Meanwhile ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. from a torque poundage standpoint, the ALLEN has more torque than an anser style putter or many other conventional putters. Sure, it sits square at address, but the moment you start moving it, the face fights just like an other putter. they even went so far as to make their own device to prove the claim and when we got our hands on one, we found that the device ads enough friction keep the putter steady at lower swing speeds. the worst part is THEY KNOW this. They know exactly what they are doing and they are simply preying on those who don't know enough to call them out. They are intentionally deceiving consumers. I get it, calling them out is "not proper" and "not how things are done", "poor form" or whatever. But if we don't do it, who's gonna? And don't you believe they should be called out? I think so many of us have become too comfortable accepting that its just ok for these companies to promise 10 more yards every six months. I think it sucks and I'm tired of it.  For us, we would not even exist if we cared about how "things are traditionally done." These companies, as you are now seeing before our eyes, certainly don't care about us and have no problem doing ridiculous things behind the scenes to sabotage us. First they tried to discredit the tech. That didn't work so now they are trying to copy the tech. We even got word that one of the OEMs threatened to pull business from one of our grip manufacturers if they didn't delay our shipments. true story! We don't have the budget or the market share not to face this competition head on. If not we'd be put out of business like SO many companies that have tried to take these companies on. And again, I get how it looks to some but like I said, if we did it the way everyone else does and didn't call folks out on the false advertising, we'd be yesterdays news.

 

Times have changed. This consumer generation is more educated and aware of the realities of the products they buy than at any point in history. We as consumers have the information to support who we want with all, or at least most of the facts. Social media has made it so that we no longer need to take the word of those trying to sell us stuff. LAB is not exempt from that either! If me defending our product and calling out BS is more of a turn off for you than companies knowingly deceiving consumers and bullying smaller companies with dollars over IP stuff, that is absolutely your right. It bums me out that we can't win 'em all but thats a reality we've had to get comfortable with.

 

I have only read snipets of this thread so if there are questions that have come up that aren't directly related to legal action about IP (feel free to ask about IP in general and I'll do my best while protecting the company) feel free to ask away. I have a little time today so I should be able to respond to some. Thanks for listening to my TED talk!

Thanks for the thorough response. Us super golf nerds can get be little extra but we appreciate you immensely. As a True GolfWrxer none of us would be here without the spirit and tenacity of competition between manufacturers and I personally appreciate LABs approach to golf. As an engineer and lover of science I came to GolfWRX for the nuts and bolts facts, even though most of us are just nuts.

 

P.S. Never stop or slow your commenting on GolfWRX, regardless of who’s thread it is, we can all benefit from different opinions and ideas of approach.

Edited April 3 by DTorres

[Red4282]

33 minutes ago, labgolf said:

Holy Crap! This thread is nuts!!! I can't address anything on the IP side as it relates to legal action unfortunately. On the other stuff, a couple of points:

1. No, i cannot say with a straight face that our tech is 100%, universally better for everyone, particularly not for so many of us who have used torquing putters our whole lives. If I said that, I imagine I did so with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I DO believe that its better for WAY more people than not and my experience over the last 7 years has only served to re-affirm. Even those who struggle, we have found that with a little instruction on how to specifically unlock our tech, most people find gains. I have absolutely seen folks who even WITH our instruction, still putt better with torquing putters but its prettyb rare if we are actually able to get in there and help. It is a different thing after all and there is virtually ZERO curriculum around this new category.

 

2. I would never "bash" ping. Of all the companies out there, they are by far the most ethical and care about the quality of their product and the happiness of their customers more than the other manufacturers. I credit the fact that they are still a family owned business with values rather than so many other OEMs that are multiple generations removed from their founders and now run by folks who prioritize bottom lines over everything else. That said, the narrative around torque fitting/stroke type did come from PING but I am certain they believed it when they started down that road. But I have never actual seen the data to support it and in the meantime have seen WAY more players who's experiences do not line up with the theory. It all started to make a lot of sense why my personal experience which was almost the dead opposite of the narrative when I saw what torquing putters did in the revealer. I don't know about you, but in the face balanced category, I was basically convinced that FB did what LAB putters do in motion. But again, I believe they absolutely had/have ethical and golf forward intentions with the theory.

 

3. I understand why me commenting on other companies threads rubs people the wrong way and yes, I have backed off a bit, mostly in the interest of time. I wish I could spend more time here because its truly my favorite thing. I doubt LAB would be where it is without WRX and a few other platforms. The real time feedback and interaction has been invaluable.  somebody made a point about how you don't see other companies doing the same thing. Here's why I think that is: first and most importantly, they aren't here and aren't reading this stuff. Sorry to sound cynical but in the last 7 years I have been monumentally disappointed to find out about the inner workings of these companies and how little they care about their customers. To be clear, I am not saying that everyone that works for one of the big companies are evil. Not in the least. There are SO many great folks inside the walls of all of them. From R&D teams to tour staff to sales reps, amazing people and golf junkies everywhere. BUT, way to many of the decision makers are coming from a sadly unethical and value-less place. It is a market share war and winning the war is ALL they care about. I'm not pretending that we are doing charity work at LAB. We are as interested in a buck as anyone else but our experience thus far has shown that being ethical, caring about your customers and being profitable are NOT mutually exclusive. The other reason they don't jump on other peoples threads is because there is the WEIRDEST unspoken agreement in Carlsbad not to call each other out on their BS because they are all full of BS! The PXG putter is a great example of what I am talking about. The Allen was introduced as a torque free putter. They basically re-packaged our entire marketing message and acted as though they were the first to think of this concept. Meanwhile ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. from a torque poundage standpoint, the ALLEN has more torque than an anser style putter or many other conventional putters. Sure, it sits square at address, but the moment you start moving it, the face fights just like an other putter. they even went so far as to make their own device to prove the claim and when we got our hands on one, we found that the device ads enough friction keep the putter steady at lower swing speeds. the worst part is THEY KNOW this. They know exactly what they are doing and they are simply preying on those who don't know enough to call them out. They are intentionally deceiving consumers. I get it, calling them out is "not proper" and "not how things are done", "poor form" or whatever. But if we don't do it, who's gonna? And don't you believe they should be called out? I think so many of us have become too comfortable accepting that its just ok for these companies to promise 10 more yards every six months. I think it sucks and I'm tired of it.  For us, we would not even exist if we cared about how "things are traditionally done." These companies, as you are now seeing before our eyes, certainly don't care about us and have no problem doing ridiculous things behind the scenes to sabotage us. First they tried to discredit the tech. That didn't work so now they are trying to copy the tech. We even got word that one of the OEMs threatened to pull business from one of our grip manufacturers if they didn't delay our shipments. true story! We don't have the budget or the market share not to face this competition head on. If not we'd be put out of business like SO many companies that have tried to take these companies on. And again, I get how it looks to some but like I said, if we did it the way everyone else does and didn't call folks out on the false advertising, we'd be yesterdays news.

 

Times have changed. This consumer generation is more educated and aware of the realities of the products they buy than at any point in history. We as consumers have the information to support who we want with all, or at least most of the facts. Social media has made it so that we no longer need to take the word of those trying to sell us stuff. LAB is not exempt from that either! If me defending our product and calling out BS is more of a turn off for you than companies knowingly deceiving consumers and bullying smaller companies with dollars over IP stuff, that is absolutely your right. It bums me out that we can't win 'em all but thats a reality we've had to get comfortable with.

 

I have only read snipets of this thread so if there are questions that have come up that aren't directly related to legal action about IP (feel free to ask about IP in general and I'll do my best while protecting the company) feel free to ask away. I have a little time today so I should be able to respond to some. Thanks for listening to my TED talk!

Some very interesting stuff there, thanks for providing that. Its pretty disgusting what some OEMs try to do in the nature of profit. 

[TonyRo]

34 minutes ago, labgolf said:

I have only read snipets of this thread so if there are questions that have come up that aren't directly related to legal action about IP (feel free to ask about IP in general and I'll do my best while protecting the company) feel free to ask away.

I know this is a lot of work and not something perhaps YOU'D do specifically, but I'd love to see a graphical summary of the CG location relative to the shaft insertion point (or whatever metric is most appropriate for understanding of the physics) for LAB and all the competitors, and a summary of magnitude/direction of torque during both stroke directions. I think the main issue for many is they don't understand what is going on physics-wise and how that relates to performance and balance. An uneducated consumer cannot discern the difference between LAB, PXG, Odyssey when the marketing departments are all making roughly the same claims. 

[labgolf]

1 hour ago, TonyRo said:

I know this is a lot of work and not something perhaps YOU'D do specifically, but I'd love to see a graphical summary of the CG location relative to the shaft insertion point (or whatever metric is most appropriate for understanding of the physics) for LAB and all the competitors, and a summary of magnitude/direction of torque during both stroke directions. I think the main issue for many is they don't understand what is going on physics-wise and how that relates to performance and balance. An uneducated consumer cannot discern the difference between LAB, PXG, Odyssey when the marketing departments are all making roughly the same claims. 

Thats a great ask but as you guessed, above my pay grade! Plus we have found that with the exception of folks with engineering backgrounds, it usually either confuses folks further or gives the impression we are splitting hairs or using math/science to deceive since the physics don't necessarily explain the experience. Thats why we rely so much on both the revealer as well as testimonials. The ladder is so important because, in the case of the Allen for instance, we are reading that many people are experiencing what the revealer showed the putter did. Great honeymoon coming from a putter where the face opens in transition to one that closes, then two weeks later fighting a pull the way they used fight a push. Soon we will have an actual torque meter to at least put a metric to all this so stay tuned for that!

[TonyRo]

LAB golf doesn't have enough physics nerds! I'm just going to have to buy all the putters and do it myself! 🤣 Thanks for replying Sam, cheers. I know you take some s*** for it, but to me it's awesome that you show up, represent, and believe in your product.

[KGrinols]

On 3/25/2025 at 6:16 AM, Shwagin1066 said:

I just think the amount of torque a traditional putter creates in relation to the force being applied to the grip ranges from negligible to non-existent.

 

On 3/25/2025 at 6:46 AM, Shwagin1066 said:

a heavy toe hang putter helping a strong arc close the face absolutely IS true for 100% of golfers.

 

Aren't these blatantly contradictory statements?

 

If the torque of a traditional putter was "negligible to non existent", (relative to grip force) then how could you believe that toe hang putters have any impact on closing the face?

[labgolf]

On 5/9/2025 at 11:39 PM, KGrinols said:

 

 

Aren't these blatantly contradictory statements?

 

If the torque of a traditional putter was "negligible to non existent", (relative to grip force) then how could you believe that toe hang putters have any impact on closing the face?

Exactly. This contradiction is the bane of my existence!!