Housing prices are outrageous.

[Mych]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

No doubt. But BITD one could not even go to college, get a decent job and still get a decent middle class house. 
Now, college degree, better than average job, ya still aren’t getting a decent house in a desirable city/area. 
 

For my kids, their idea of "desirable" is what will keep them from finding something they can afford. 

For instance, this is a home about 5 minute drive from our previous house, zoned to the same elementary school that my kids went to. At $239k, she could get into this house for around $1800/mo including taxes and insurance, even with today's interest rates.
http://www.har.com/homedetail/1815-chickadee-dr-league-city-tx-77573/2597716

 

What they want is something more like this, which is basically the same square footage and school zone, but newer and costs $100k more. At $330k, she'd be looking at $2500+/mo all-in which would be tougher to afford coming out of college.
https://www.har.com/homedetail/117-greenridge-cir-league-city-tx-77573/11784971

 

All things considered, my area is still very affordable compared to many other places. If we were closer to downtown Houston, these houses would both be $100k more expensive. 

Edited June 3 by Mych

[TiScape]

58 minutes ago, Mych said:

For my kids, their idea of "desirable" is what will keep them from finding something they can afford. 

For instance, this is a home about 5 minute drive from our previous house, zoned to the same elementary school that my kids went to. At $239k, she could get into this house for around $1800/mo including taxes and insurance, even with today's interest rates.
http://www.har.com/homedetail/1815-chickadee-dr-league-city-tx-77573/2597716

 

What they want is something more like this, which is basically the same square footage and school zone, but newer and costs $100k more. At $330k, she'd be looking at $2500+/mo all-in which would be tougher to afford coming out of college.
https://www.har.com/homedetail/117-greenridge-cir-league-city-tx-77573/11784971

 

All things considered, my area is still very affordable compared to many other places. If we were closer to downtown Houston, these houses would both be $100k more expensive. 

Yeah, to get something somewhat affordable ya gotta get further n further away from the more desirable areas. Won’t b long b4 we run out of room! 

[mshills]

4 hours ago, TiScape said:

No doubt. But BITD one could not even go to college, get a decent job and still get a decent middle class house. 
Now, college degree, better than average job, ya still aren’t getting a decent house in a desirable city/area. 
 

Depends. There are plenty of major metro areas where someone earlier in life/career can buy a house in a perfectly acceptable area, with some caveats. 
 

First, it’s going to take a few years post undergrad for most people to come near to saving up for a down payment. It takes time and sacrifice, which isn’t new. 
 

Second, have to be realistic about what a “perfectly acceptable area” is. The easy availability of information, rankings, etc. IMO has raised the bar on what new buyers find “acceptable” — beyond reason….for example:

 

”…..new construction 4 BR with an open concept floor plan for entertaining in a walkable neighborhood where we can walk to all those cute restaurants and coffee shops. Fenced yard is a must for the dog we plan to get, as is an attached 2.5 car garage for her SUV and a finished basement. We must be within a 15 minute commute of work, and must be in such-and-such best of the best top ranked elite school district otherwise our kids (which we don’t have yet) will never possibly make it.”

 

“What is your budget?”

 

”$325K.”

 

🤯🤯🤯😱😱😱

 

Again I blame HGTV and the weight we’ve put on rankings of school districts. Expectations are just not realistic. @Triple Lindy this is slightly satire but I think you’re trying to advise around this, and I feel for ya. 
 

If you are in the major metros in Cali or in in Austin TX, Seattle, Miami, Boston, DC, or the NY metro, affordability is a legitimate and serious issue even with reasonable expectations, but what I typed above is still way too prevalent. 

Edited June 3 by mshills

[TiScape]

2 minutes ago, mshills said:

Depends. There are plenty of major metro areas where someone earlier in life/career can buy a house in a perfectly acceptable area, with some couple caveats. 
 

First, it’s going to take a few years post undergrad for most people to come near to saving up for a down payment. It takes time and sacrifice, which isn’t new. 
 

Second, have to be realistic about what a “perfectly acceptable area” is. The easy availability of information, rankings, etc. IMO has raised the bar if what new buyers find “acceptable” beyond reason….for example:

 

”…..new construction 4 BR with an open concept floor plan for entertaining in a walkable neighborhood where we can walk to all those cute restaurants and coffee shops. Fenced yard is a must for the dog we plan to get, as is an attached 2.5 car garage for her SUV and a finished basement. We must be within a 15 minute commute of work, and must be in such-and-such best of the best top ranked elite school district otherwise our kids (which we don’t have yet) will never possibly make it.”

 

“What is your budget?”

 

”$325K.”

 

🤯🤯🤯😱😱😱

 

Again I blame HGTV. Expectations are just not realistic. 
 

If you are in the major metros in Cali or in in Austin TX, Seattle, Miami, Boston, DC, or the NY metro, affordability is a legitimate serious issue even with reasonable expectations, but what I typed above is still way too prevalent. 

I see you said “post undergrad”.
My point was BITD you could get a nice house in a good location w/only a HS diploma and a decent job. Heck, my dad didn’t go to college and worked all his life in the produce 🍇🍎🍐🍊industry. He was able to buy the home I was raised in (not far from where I live now). Guy w/the same job/career now couldn’t rent even a room in a house anywhere near here now. 

Things are just out of control now 🫤

[mshills]

3 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I see you said “post undergrad”.
My point was BITD you could get a nice house in a good location w/only a HS diploma and a decent job. Heck, my dad didn’t go to college and worked all his life in the produce 🍇🍎🍐🍊industry. He was able to buy the home I was raised in (not far from where I live now). Guy w/the same job/career now couldn’t rent even a room in a house anywhere near here now. 

Things are just out of control now 🫤

Yeah…that is totally my bad, using terms that apply to me and my experience. Kinda selfish really. 
 

With a HS diploma I think it’s possible still, but one has more limited areas to choose from. My son #1 does not have college in his future — he is going a different direction, so we (he) will find this out first hand. 
 

It does raise a question. In the Bay Area….or in San Diego…where do the electricians, plumbers, or other skilled tradespeople live who provide those services to those areas?

[TiScape]

Just now, mshills said:

Yeah…that is totally my bad, using terms that apply to me and my experience. Kinda selfish really. 
 

With a HS diploma I think it’s possible still, but one has more limited areas to choose from. My son #1 does not have college in his future — he is going a different direction, so we (he) will find this out first hand. 
 

It does raise a question. In the Bay Area….or in San Diego…where do the electricians, plumbers, or other skilled tradespeople live who provide those services to those areas?

Good question. A big problem is, none of the teachers (unless their spouse make $600k + a year) can afford to live anywhere close to where they teach. 
The skilled tradesman most likely live in apartments or have roommates. And obviously a lot will leave the state for a more affordable one. But the states that were more affordable to move to just a few years ago have become unaffordable for them as well. So as I eluded to earlier. The options are shrinking.

[Mych]

18 minutes ago, mshills said:

Yeah…that is totally my bad, using terms that apply to me and my experience. Kinda selfish really. 
 

With a HS diploma I think it’s possible still, but one has more limited areas to choose from. My son #1 does not have college in his future — he is going a different direction, so we (he) will find this out first hand. 
 

It does raise a question. In the Bay Area….or in San Diego…where do the electricians, plumbers, or other skilled tradespeople live who provide those services to those areas?

I have a cousin who owns a plumbing company in Oakland, but mostly works in San Francisco.  His workers carpool in from other places further away, and the reason he's able to live there is that he bought the house 40 years ago and got lucky that the neighborhood didn't have as many drug or violence issues as some of other parts of Oakland.

[TiScape]

1 hour ago, Mych said:

I have a cousin who owns a plumbing company in Oakland, but mostly works in San Francisco.  His workers carpool in from other places further away, and the reason he's able to live there is that he bought the house 40 years ago and got lucky that the neighborhood didn't have as many drug or violence issues as some of other parts of Oakland.

Yeah, those workers probably live towards the valley (Modesto, Stockton,  Manteca, further) and have to commute in in ridiculous traffic both ways. Can’t imagine. 
 

*I can say all the trainers at my gym rent apartments. Sans two women that live in homes close by bcs their husbands have really good jobs. 

Edited June 3 by TiScape

[mshills]

36 minutes ago, Mych said:

I have a cousin who owns a plumbing company in Oakland, but mostly works in San Francisco.  His workers carpool in from other places further away, and the reason he's able to live there is that he bought the house 40 years ago and got lucky that the neighborhood didn't have as many drug or violence issues as some of other parts of Oakland.

Yes…..and OWNING a plumbing business is a whole lot different than being an apprentice or journeyman plumber. 
 

I don’t have an easy solution to this BTW. Not good. 

Edited June 3 by mshills

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Mych said:

I have a cousin who owns a plumbing company in Oakland, but mostly works in San Francisco.  His workers carpool in from other places further away, and the reason he's able to live there is that he bought the house 40 years ago and got lucky that the neighborhood didn't have as many drug or violence issues as some of other parts of Oakland.

 

Just to echo, this is the norm and only gets worse in even higher COL areas. Everything scales to absurd numbers when you get near destination/resort areas. The PE firms continue to consolidate any competition then squeeze their own workers out of the tiny amount of affordable housing available to the point some have had to strike.

 

It's funny the way things just yo-yo. Organized labor came out of prior conditions like this, it got better, unions went away, it got worse, and now unions and guilds are becoming a thing again. Still, more pay isn't going to fix a lack of places to rent or buy below the luxury level. 

[Nard_S]

Lived through 3 booms & 2 busts of housing.  At some point out sized housing costs has a reckoning, there will be another day of it, might take a few years but it will happen.

Edited June 4 by Nard_S

[Mych]

20 hours ago, TiScape said:

Yeah, those workers probably live towards the valley (Modesto, Stockton,  Manteca, further) and have to commute in in ridiculous traffic both ways. Can’t imagine. 
 

*I can say all the trainers at my gym rent apartments. Sans two women that live in homes close by bcs their husbands have really good jobs. 

My cousin used to rent bedrooms in his house to his employees, but obviously that idea isn't so great when an employee needs to become an ex-employee.  His wife is from Jamaica and functioned like the "house mom" in a frat house, so for years she did all the cooking and cleaning for everyone in the business, as well as being the dispatcher and managing the books. 🙂  All my cousin did was lay the pipe (awful joke but I made myself giggle). 

 

 

[Mych]

22 hours ago, mshills said:

Yes…..and OWNING a plumbing business is a whole lot different than being an apprentice or journeyman plumber. 
 

I don’t have an easy solution to this BTW. Not good. 

 

I think the gap between "suitable to rent" and "ready to buy" is way too big. 

 

To rent a $2k/mo property, it takes a pay stub showing that you can make the rent, first and last month's deposit (~$4k), and a relatively clean financial history (no recent bankruptcies, evictions). 

 

To be a buyer on a similar property ($250k home), it takes a strong income history, strong credit history, 10-20% down payment (~$25k-50k), clean financial history, and significant preparation (preapprovals, etc). 

 

 

I think there is a sweet-spot between those where you could have more lease-to-own programs that allow renters to put themselves on an ownership path. Right now, most of those arrangements are seller-financed, and most sellers aren't willing to go into that long of a financial relationship with a potential buyer. I just think it'll take creativity and less greed, but I really can't think of many good solutions that help turn renters into buyers other than things like subprime mortgages that comes with a ton of risk for the lender or owner financing that comes with a lot of risk for the seller.

 

I could also see a scenario like this:
A moderately qualified buyer who would usually be relegated to renting uses a real estate investing company who matches their down payment and provides the financial security that a seller would want, but instead of just renting the home to the new buyer, the buyer enters a contract where they split any appreciation with the real estate investors and pay an interest rate slightly higher than market rate. The new buyer is responsible for repairs/upkeep as a normal homeowner would be, but the buyer's equity (from their payments to principle) could be managed in escrow and borrowed against for emergency home repair or used to pay for a mandatory home warranty. In essence, it's a "home savings account" similar to a HELOC. 

 

Then when they hit a certain percentage (say 30% equity) the contract is converted to a traditional mortgage but if the buyer leaves the contract before that equity transition point they forfeit the equity to the real estate investors, essentially meaning they just rented the property for that period of time.  The lender benefits by being able to cash out on half of the appreciation and any interest paid, and the new homeowner gets a lower barrier of entry into purchasing a home, lower down payment, builds equity during the "rental" phase, and also splits the home's appreciation, incentivizing them to make it a long term investment and to keep the property in good shape. 

 

*Edit: Apparently something like this already exists, called a "Contract for Deed". It just isn't used very widely and is frowned upon because it is more risky than normal sale or rental arrangements. Very interesting!

 

Edited June 4 by Mych

[Nard_S]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/29/business/home-sellers-market-redfin-report?Date=20250529&Profile=CNN&utm_content=1748520488&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwY2xjawKunsxleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFaaFJtS0dESEcyOWEzYklqAR7cIgLLWkANt6eU3Jq5AXOtqH8dUbpoL6vj_u5FdS55WAV098j-YqBB7FKxCQ_aem_LWoqFkSL-srzN_kWEqLwyw

[PedronNiall]

On 6/4/2025 at 12:45 PM, Mych said:

 

I think the gap between "suitable to rent" and "ready to buy" is way too big. 

 

To rent a $2k/mo property, it takes a pay stub showing that you can make the rent, first and last month's deposit (~$4k), and a relatively clean financial history (no recent bankruptcies, evictions). 

 

To be a buyer on a similar property ($250k home), it takes a strong income history, strong credit history, 10-20% down payment (~$25k-50k), clean financial history, and significant preparation (preapprovals, etc). 

 

 

I think there is a sweet-spot between those where you could have more lease-to-own programs that allow renters to put themselves on an ownership path. Right now, most of those arrangements are seller-financed, and most sellers aren't willing to go into that long of a financial relationship with a potential buyer. I just think it'll take creativity and less greed, but I really can't think of many good solutions that help turn renters into buyers other than things like subprime mortgages that comes with a ton of risk for the lender or owner financing that comes with a lot of risk for the seller.

 

I could also see a scenario like this:
A moderately qualified buyer who would usually be relegated to renting uses a real estate investing company who matches their down payment and provides the financial security that a seller would want, but instead of just renting the home to the new buyer, the buyer enters a contract where they split any appreciation with the real estate investors and pay an interest rate slightly higher than market rate. The new buyer is responsible for repairs/upkeep as a normal homeowner would be, but the buyer's equity (from their payments to principle) could be managed in escrow and borrowed against for emergency home repair or used to pay for a mandatory home warranty. In essence, it's a "home savings account" similar to a HELOC. 

 

Then when they hit a certain percentage (say 30% equity) the contract is converted to a traditional mortgage but if the buyer leaves the contract before that equity transition point they forfeit the equity to the real estate investors, essentially meaning they just rented the property for that period of time.  The lender benefits by being able to cash out on half of the appreciation and any interest paid, and the new homeowner gets a lower barrier of entry into purchasing a home, lower down payment, builds equity during the "rental" phase, and also splits the home's appreciation, incentivizing them to make it a long term investment and to keep the property in good shape. 

 

*Edit: Apparently something like this already exists, called a "Contract for Deed". It just isn't used very widely and is frowned upon because it is more risky than normal sale or rental arrangements. Very interesting!

 

 

Still a good idea, and the current implementation has had a lot of situations where buyers get taken for all of the money they've put in either because of a single missed payment or because of intentional fraud. An updated system with better protections for the buyers would go a long way. 

 

Also need better options for owning apartments and condos. Not everyone wants or needs a house, but anyone who has the desire should be able to own somewhere they can't be kicked out of because payments double and triple to make other people rich. Plenty of other ways to make plenty of money that don't rely on making society as a whole less stable. 

[Jraallen]

On 6/3/2025 at 12:52 PM, Mych said:

For my kids, their idea of "desirable" is what will keep them from finding something they can afford. 

For instance, this is a home about 5 minute drive from our previous house, zoned to the same elementary school that my kids went to. At $239k, she could get into this house for around $1800/mo including taxes and insurance, even with today's interest rates.
http://www.har.com/homedetail/1815-chickadee-dr-league-city-tx-77573/2597716

 

What they want is something more like this, which is basically the same square footage and school zone, but newer and costs $100k more. At $330k, she'd be looking at $2500+/mo all-in which would be tougher to afford coming out of college.
https://www.har.com/homedetail/117-greenridge-cir-league-city-tx-77573/11784971

 

All things considered, my area is still very affordable compared to many other places. If we were closer to downtown Houston, these houses would both be $100k more expensive. 

Those are both real nice for the cost. Even the cheaper one would probably be 5-650k out here in MA, depending on proximity to Boston/major roadways

 

I just saw a house down the street go for 480k, 3 bed, 1 bath, 960 sq ft. Washing machine in the kitchen, didn’t see a dryer. The only AC I could see was a window unit cutout in a wall. Slab foundation and tiny attic. Most of these style houses convert the garage to living space (this one had not) so they could get some extra space doing that but still..

[TiScape]

1 hour ago, Jraallen said:

Those are both real nice for the cost. Even the cheaper one would probably be 5-650k out here in MA, depending on proximity to Boston/major roadways

 

I just saw a house down the street go for 480k, 3 bed, 1 bath, 960 sq ft. Washing machine in the kitchen, didn’t see a dryer. The only AC I could see was a window unit cutout in a wall. Slab foundation and tiny attic. Most of these style houses convert the garage to living space (this one had not) so they could get some extra space doing that but still..

That less expensive one be ~$1.5 mill here. 
But the weather is absolutely fantastic! ☀️ 

 

🤪

[Jraallen]

9 minutes ago, TiScape said:

That less expensive one be ~$1.5 mill here. 
But the weather is absolutely fantastic! ☀️ 

 

🤪

Jealous.. of the weather, not the 1.5 lol. 
 

[TiScape]

2 minutes ago, Jraallen said:

Jealous.. of the weather, not the 1.5 lol. 
 

Yeah. It’s ridiculous 

[Mych]

2 hours ago, TiScape said:

That less expensive one be ~$1.5 mill here. 
But the weather is absolutely fantastic! ☀️ 

 

🤪

20+ years ago when we were moving from Philadelphia, the final 3 choices we considered were Orlando, Houston, and Huntington Beach.  I just took a look at home listings in Huntington Beach, and there's no way I would've been able to buy there, probably even now. It would be heartbreaking to be a young couple wanting to own a home there.

 

But yes, great weather! 😐

 

 

[TiScape]

Oh yeah, it’s no doubt near impossible to get started here.