Lead Arm In The Downswing

[KD1]

@Simpsonia I have more questions and wanted to flesh this out a little more but I didn't want to derail someone else's thread.

 

38 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

So according to Tyler, very early retraction is often associated with "spinning the shoulders" to start the downswing which leads to big OTT. Later in the swing, but still before impact, lead shoulder retraction is one of the big contributors to a chicken-wing. It can also mess with your low point control, since between delivery and impact lead shoulder retraction raises the lead shoulder some relative to the ball, changing the arc width, requiring some minor compensations elsewhere. 

 

So if the swing thought were to keep your back to the target and retract the lead shoulder would that work?

 

@MonteScheinblum Talks about shoulder retraction in the downswing to add power. https://www.instagram.com/p/DEdkaNZyicG/

 

Here is Bryson on using his lats to pull the club down for power. Is there lead shoulder retraction here? It first glance I thought there must be quite a bit but maybe I'm wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn-g_TRrnh4

 

Broader question: We know another death move is not getting the lead shoulder off the chin and keeping the lead arm pinned to the chest for too long. So let's talk about what is actually supposed to happen with the lead arm anatomically. What muscles fire to get the lead shoulder off the chin? How does the lead humorous move and rotate in space in the start of the downswing and what causes it?

 

Edited April 11 by KD1

[KD1]

Here is an interesting video from Sam Attanasio on engaging the lats. He makes no mention of the shoulder blades. I think the focus is on a different part of the lats.

 

 

 

And for reference

Edited April 11 by KD1

[dpc]

I'm really interested in this topic.  For me, focusing on the lead arm and shoulder is a driver of the behavior of a lot of other parts of the swing.  In other words if things are going badly or I want to try to improve some swing mechanics, the left shoulder/arm seems to get me there quicker, despite being right-handed.

 

Please carry on <elbows propped on the desk, chin in hands>.

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

@Simpsonia I have more questions and wanted to flesh this out a little more but I didn't want to derail someone else's thread.

 

 

So if the swing thought were to keep your back to the target and retract the lead shoulder would that work?

 

@MonteScheinblum Talks about shoulder retraction in the downswing to add power. https://www.instagram.com/p/DEdkaNZyicG/

 

Here is Bryson on using his lats to pull the club down for power. Is there lead shoulder retraction here? It first glance I thought there must be quite a bit but maybe I'm wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn-g_TRrnh4

 

Broader question: We know another death move is not getting the lead shoulder off the chin and keeping the lead arm pinned to the chest for too long. So let's talk about what is actually supposed to happen with the lead arm anatomically. What muscles fire to get the lead shoulder off the chin? How does the lead humorous move and rotate in space in the start of the downswing and what causes it?

 

 

So as I understand it, its not that you don't retract the lead shoulder, but it is a sequencing thing. According to Tyler, you don't want the retraction to happen until after impact. 

 

Here's one of Tyler's videos on the subject. The first part of the Morikawa video he discusses the lead shoulder in sequencing. Unfortunately all the rest of his videos on the lead shoulder are only on his pay site. And yes, Morikawa isn't exactly a long hitter. This might also be one of those gray areas where some people with the talent and timing can find the compensations to make a more powerful and earlier retraction move work, and others can't. 

 

 

Edited April 11 by Simpsonia

[KD1]

@Simpsonia thank you for the video.

 

I know Im not qualified to have an opinion like this (lol) but im gunna anyway: at 3min 10sec I'm not sure I agree with Tyler's assessment that he must not be using the lats... I can't imagine how else Colin got his shoulder off his chin. The fact that he doesn't see the elbow straighten doesn't mean much because the lat doesn't straighten the elbow! Right?

 

Also, were squishy meat bags. There can be delay from when we fire a muscle to when we actually see it happen.

 

Kinematics vs kinetics, right?

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

@Simpsonia thank you for the video.

 

I know Im not qualified to have an opinion like this (lol) but im gunna anyway: at 3min 10sec I'm not sure I agree with Tyler's assessment that he must not be using the lats... I can't imagine how else Colin got his shoulder off his chin. The fact that he doesn't see the elbow straighten doesn't mean much because the lat doesn't straighten the elbow! Right?

 

Also, were squishy meat bags. There can be delay from when we fire a muscle to when we actually see it happen.

 

Kinematics vs kinetics, right?

 

Try rewatching the part @1:20 so so. You can see how its a combo of going a bit deeper into left side bend in transition (which is a bit easier to see by watching how his head lowers) at the same time his lead hip drive rotates his torso a bit which brings the shoulder (still in protraction) along with it away from his chin. That's how you see the lead shoulder going lower and away from the chin in transition from the face on view. 

 

Edit: here's a bit on left tilt in transition. 

 

Edited April 11 by Simpsonia

[RangeBaller]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

Here is an interesting video from Sam Attanasio on engaging the lats. He makes no mention of the shoulder blades. I think the focus is on a different part of the lats.

 

 

 

And for reference

Yikes.  I don't know what Sam's credentials are, perhaps he is trying to oversimplify but this is a lot of bro science.  The lat muscle does not serve to protract (or push away).  This should be apparent to even the meatiest of bros when you consider the concentric portion of all lat exercises involve pulling closer to midline, not pushing away.  

 

The lats are important, but in order to use them maximally you need protraction of the scapula.  This is the primary function of a muscle called serratus anterior, AKA the boxer muscle.  It's especially relevant to the OP question because without proper scapula function you'll have a difficult time engaging the lats in any movement. 

 

The other upside to training and learning to engage the serratus muscle is that it will hugely help those with inside takeaway and OTT patterns.  When the shoulder girdle is unstable, your body will compensate by using the pec to adduct the lead arm across midline, which sucks your hand path inside.

 

[KD1]

3 hours ago, RangeBaller said:

I don't know what Sam's credentials are

 

I'm not familiar with him either. I came across this video a few days ago and it's the first I've seen of him. I looked him up and it looks like he's a dr and a long drive guy with some world speed records.

 

(Edit) I don't think he ever meant that the lats push the arms away. He talked about stretching them to allow them to free up so you've then got something to pull back.

Edited April 12 by KD1

[golferdude54]

It might just be as simple as maintaining a max lead arm radius (without locking the elbow) in both the backswing and downswing.

 

How many times in instruction do you hear the feel of "actively trying to keep the right elbow from bending in the backswing" and also "actively trying to straighten the right elbow in the downswing"? Pretty often. Scheffler probably has the most consistent arc radius out of anybody right now, and he gets pretty good results from it.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, golferdude54 said:

It might just be as simple as maintaining a max lead arm radius (without locking the elbow) in both the backswing and downswing.

 

How many times in instruction do you hear the feel of "actively trying to keep the right elbow from bending in the backswing" and also "actively trying to straighten the right elbow in the downswing"? Pretty often. Scheffler probably has the most consistent arc radius out of anybody right now, and he gets pretty good results from it.

 

I'm afraid not for me anyway. I've actually had to go in the other direction and allow myself to *soften* my elbows a bit more.

[golferdude54]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

 

I'm afraid not for me anyway. I've actually had to go in the other direction and allow myself to *soften* my elbows a bit more.

 

I don't really advertise training aids but the Izzo Smooth Swing/Callaway SwingEasy elbow straps were really helpful in maintaining "soft" elbows while still getting width.

 

My last post didn't touch on the protracting/retracting movement of the left scapula that you originally started the thread about. I don't even think it does retract until after impact. Well, it feels to me that it doesn't when I try to imitate Scheffler's arc but feeling vs actual movement are different. So I could be wrong.

[KD1]

On 4/11/2025 at 3:02 PM, Simpsonia said:

 

Try rewatching the part @1:20 so so. You can see how its a combo of going a bit deeper into left side bend in transition (which is a bit easier to see by watching how his head lowers) at the same time his lead hip drive rotates his torso a bit which brings the shoulder (still in protraction) along with it away from his chin. That's how you see the lead shoulder going lower and away from the chin in transition from the face on view. 

 

Edit: here's a bit on left tilt in transition. 

 

Is this what we were watching justin rose do in his rehearsals this weekend?

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/DHHfIUpszCp/

Edited April 14 by KD1