Lowering spin rate on driver

[Howard_Jones]

2 minutes ago, LongNwrong27 said:

But playing golf isn’t always about your numbers on pure strikes. When people hit the toe, the spin rates dive and the playability of the shot goes down the drain. 
 

I suspect these algorithms (which are approximations) are generally fit to common ranges of spin and therefore don’t reflect reality when you significantly deviate. So no I don’t really believe the yardages drop off this little when you drop spin to ridiculously low numbers like 800-1000. 
 

I think a pretty common scenario with good players who teeter on the edge of too low spin is they toe it and get a knuckling ball that is low and left, going nowhere. This was an extremely common phenomenon when mega low spin heads like the SLDR came out. So we fit to avoid this, seeing as you described the marginal gains from being 12 launch 1700 spin vs 2500 are generally pretty like 5 yards for a reasonable ball speed range like 150-180. When the 1700 guy toes the ball, it is absolutely horrendous. When the 2500 guy does, it’s bad but not as bad. 
 

I just think your argument that there is basically no downside makes no sense intuitively because if that was true, why wouldn’t every pga tour player pursue such low spins? It’s very very uncommon you see a tour player with a spin rate sub 2k. I think it’s just generally unplayable and while it may go 5 yards further , the downside risk of a horrendous snap hook is simply not worth it. 

Who is talking about spin levels down at 800 or 1000? - i clearly DONT, but if we seek maxed out numbers, high spin values is NOT beneficial....and spin will NOT save a complete mis hit either, and please dont pull those SDLR stories, we dont play heads with that low MOI values. The MOI value on the head used by the player in my example is 5000, and was back then to the higher end of what was normal. True loft was 13* measured with 1.0* closed face angle.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

A snap hook at 180 vs 135 also has much different consequences on the golf course.  One is likely in play, one is likely taking a penalty or sorts

Is there a connection between low spin values and snap hooks? NOPE....snap hooks is caused by a face angle way to closed vs path than it should be, and the higher the spin value is, the WORSE that curve will be.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, Howard_Jones said:

Who is talking about spin levels down at 800 or 1000? - i clearly DONT, but if we seek maxed out numbers, high spin values is NOT beneficial....and spin will NOT save a complete mis hit either, and please dont pull those SDLR stories, we dont play heads with that low MOI values. The MOI value on the head used by the player in my example is 5000, and was back then to the higher end of what was normal. True loft was 13* measured with 1.0* closed face angle.

 

 

Is there a connection between low spin values and snap hooks? NOPE....snap hooks is caused by a face angle way to closed vs path than it should be, and the higher the spin value is, the WORSE that curve will be.

Right on Howard.  Appreciate you contributions.  Have a good day

[phizzy30]

6 hours ago, mizuno player said:

Rory spins the ball 22/2500 and his ball speed can get to mid 180 , I think. Launch 13/14°. These guys don't want really low spin. They can't control the ball. 

 

 

This is correct in that tour pros don't want spin to get too low as they would gladly give up a few yards off the tee for accuracy.  I can verify this as the assistant pro at my club used to play on the Asian Tour with James Hahn.  I've also had discussions with Brenden Steele back in the day when he would visit his old stomping grounds to see his friends and family and would stop by The Ranch(aka Casta Del Sol) to get in a round with his good buddy who was the head pro at the time.  They all say the same thing.  Low spin is great for launch monitors, but no bueno when the the stakes are high in a tournament.  

[Howard_Jones]

13 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

This is correct in that tour pros don't want spin to get too low as they would gladly give up a few yards off the tee for accuracy.  I can verify this as the assistant pro at my club used to play on the Asian Tour with James Hahn.  I've also had discussions with Brenden Steele back in the day when he would visit his old stomping grounds to see his friends and family and would stop by The Ranch(aka Casta Del Sol) to get in a round with his good buddy who was the head pro at the time.  They all say the same thing.  Low spin is great for launch monitors, but no bueno when the the stakes are high in a tournament.  

Its NOT accuracy, but shopshape ability.

Tilt on the spin axis (or side spin), is made by "face to path"....
- for IRONs, a face angle closed 1.0 to path, cause a tilt of 3 on the spin axis, and 2.0 closed to path will cause a tilt of 6.

There is 17.365 rpms side spin for each 1* of Tilt for each 1000 rpm....

- That means, if we want a sharper curve, we can either impart more tilt, OR use more spin.
(double the tilt, or double rpm gives the same return value as side spin)
- 3000 rpm spin, and a tilt og 3* vs 1500 rpm spin, who needs a tilt of 6* to deliver the same curve....

If dispersion was #1, they would go for lower spin, so this is all about playability, or how much manipulation of face to path thats needed for shot shaping. Its easier to make a draw or fade on command when spin is high vs low, so its all about shot shaping, and they dont loose much distance in this deal, most of them optimize for CARRY anyway.

[LongNwrong27]

17 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Its NOT accuracy, but shopshape ability.

Tilt on the spin axis (or side spin), is made by "face to path"....
- for IRONs, a face angle closed 1.0 to path, cause a tilt of 3 on the spin axis, and 2.0 closed to path will cause a tilt of 6.

There is 17.365 rpms side spin for each 1* of Tilt for each 1000 rpm....

- That means, if we want a sharper curve, we can either impart more tilt, OR use more spin.
(double the tilt, or double rpm gives the same return value as side spin)
- 3000 rpm spin, and a tilt og 3* vs 1500 rpm spin, who needs a tilt of 6* to deliver the same curve....

If dispersion was #1, they would go for lower spin, so this is all about playability, or how much manipulation of face to path thats needed for shot shaping. Its easier to make a draw or fade on command when spin is high vs low, so its all about shot shaping, and they dont loose much distance in this deal, most of them optimize for CARRY anyway.

Don’t think most tour pros are trying to work their driver both ways and there is a wealth of data that suggests doing so is generally a bad move even for elite players. Majority of them have a stock shot they stick to, with some of them even having a separate club like a 3W made for shaping ball other way.  They also hit the ball much straighter with less curve than amateur golfers so I don’t agree they are pursuing higher than ideal spin for workability reasons. 

12 launch 2000 spin 180 ball speed vs 2500 spin and 5* axis tilt moves .3 yards more in curvature per flightscope so it’s a miniscule difference anyway or .7 yards if you make axis tilt 10*.  As I’ve said before I think it’s far more about eliminating low left miss which is the absolute worst miss you can have in high level golf, which tends to occur when spin gets too low. 

Edited April 17 by LongNwrong27

[rsballer10]

25 minutes ago, LongNwrong27 said:

Don’t think most tour pros are trying to work their driver both ways and there is a wealth of data that suggests doing so is generally a bad move even for elite players.

 

yet millions of people just watched Rory do it to win the Masters.

Quote

They also hit the ball much straighter with less curve than amateur golfers so I don’t agree they are pursuing higher than ideal spin for workability reasons

Literally watched 100's of pros tee off, and was less than 10' away from them. Would love to know the LM data, but I can assure you they were not spinning the ball at 2,000.

[speedeuphoria]

38 minutes ago, LongNwrong27 said:

Don’t think most tour pros are trying to work their driver both ways and there is a wealth of data that suggests doing so is generally a bad move even for elite players. Majority of them have a stock shot they stick to, with some of them even having a separate club like a 3W made for shaping ball other way.  They also hit the ball much straighter with less curve than amateur golfers so I don’t agree they are pursuing higher than ideal spin for workability reasons. 

12 launch 2000 spin 180 ball speed vs 2500 spin and 5* axis tilt moves .3 yards more in curvature per flightscope so it’s a miniscule difference anyway or .7 yards if you make axis tilt 10*.  As I’ve said before I think it’s far more about eliminating low left miss which is the absolute worst miss you can have in high level golf, which tends to occur when spin gets too low. 

I think you keep missing the point that spin is tied to ballspeed. 

Edited April 17 by speedeuphoria

[Howard_Jones]

14 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

 

yet millions of people just watched Rory do it to win the Masters.

Literally watched 100's of pros tee off, and was less than 10' away from them. Would love to know the LM data, but I can assure you they were not spinning the ball at 2,000.

And i made clubs for some of them, but it might come as a surprise for some, that i actually talked with them during that job to figure out what they wanted, that was never my decision, i was only the one who made their wishes possible.
Both my sponsored players, had drivers with spin levels in the 2400-2600 range, but non of them seeked max distance, (they was hitting it long enough) they wanted fairway finders, where they could shape their shots, and get the to the lay up area they wanted. Those LM reports is long gone, but when a LPGA player is out at 270 yards, its no longer a "need" for distance, but to maximize fairway hits at that distance.

here is one of my sponsored players, (10 years ago now), but some still think i worked as a weekend helper in the local cut and glue shop.



https://womensgolf.com/daisy-nielsen

She no longer plays professional golf, and is now married to her swing coach from that time. 

[LongNwrong27]

38 minutes ago, speedeuphoria said:

I think you keep missing the point that spin is tied to ballspeed. 

No I definitely understand that. That doesn’t mean that really fast people can’t get low spins if they want. As I said before Rory is an outlier who actually will have crazy low spins like 1700-1800 and clearly he is potentially the best driver of the ball ever and also one of the best ball strikers ever. 
 

you just have to swing up with a low lofted head that is reasonably low spin. Long drive also who are clearly a couple levels faster than Rory can also do it but again most good players do not pursue these launch conditions 

[LongNwrong27]

12 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

And i made clubs for some of them, but it might come as a surprise for some, that i actually talked with them during that job to figure out what they wanted, that was never my decision, i was only the one who made their wishes possible.
Both my sponsored players, had drivers with spin levels in the 2400-2600 range, but non of them seeked max distance, (they was hitting it long enough) they wanted fairway finders, where they could shape their shots, and get the to the lay up area they wanted. Those LM reports is long gone, but when a LPGA player is out at 270 yards, its no longer a "need" for distance, but to maximize fairway hits at that distance.

here is one of my sponsored players, (10 years ago now), but some still think i worked as a weekend helper in the local cut and glue shop.



https://womensgolf.com/daisy-nielsen

She no longer plays professional golf, and is now married to her swing coach from that time. 

Fairway finder is actually exactly what I’m talking about , which you don’t seem to understand . You’re basically inferring there is in fact a trade off to infinitely pursuing low spin, while refusing to acknowledge this concept. 
 

 

[LongNwrong27]

My fundamental point in this entire discussion is yes you can have too low of driver spin. Most good players who hit the ball reasonably far and play for a living, let’s say 180ish ball speed generally have launch angles somewhere between 10-14 degree and a spin rate of 2300-2700 ish , painting with broad brush strokes. 
 

these same players, where their livelihoods depend on earning money, which is extremely correlated to how well they drive they ball, do not generally pursue launching it at 16 degrees and spinning it 1800, with the exception of guys like Rory who does have this shot in the bag. He can make it work bc he’s a ridiculous driver and overall striker of the ball but most clearly cannot. If this sort of thing was truly optimal in terms of both hitting it far and as accurate as possible, everyone would adopt these conditions , yet we know they do not. 
 

many folks are fit into too low of a spin rate bc it looks good on launch monitors and goes very far, but results in an inconsistent flight in real life golf and is actually a worse overall fit. There is a difference between playing golf on a launch monitor and putting a ball in the hole. Distance is extremely important for playing well, however it is not the only thing that is important 

[Howard_Jones]

15 minutes ago, LongNwrong27 said:

Fairway finder is actually exactly what I’m talking about , which you don’t seem to understand . You’re basically inferring there is in fact a trade off to infinitely pursuing low spin, while refusing to acknowledge this concept. 
 

 

Is the head line for THIS tread, is "what does the PGA player plays and why"....
Nope....the head line is "Lowering spin rate on my driver".

My second sponsored player was Lasse sonne Nielsen, aka mr 61.
He still holds the Danish PGA record for lowest score on one round with 11 under par, and that's still the course record from back tee on my home course Condado De Alhama Signature in Murcia Spain. (Jack Nicklaus in person have designed it)

https://www.facebook.com/FoooreGolfLab/photos/pb.100088399625397.-2207520000/537041466327413/?type=3


Would his score have been even better if you made his clubs? 
...it sounds like that, since you think i dont know what im dealing with.


 

Edited April 17 by Howard_Jones

[tgrabowske]

On 4/15/2025 at 5:28 PM, NorCal678 said:

When you say low left are you referring to strike?  If so that is definitely something the right shaft can help with 

He means like him hitting a hook. Shaft aint gonna help a hook thats more swing related!

[rsballer10]

17 minutes ago, tgrabowske said:

He means like him hitting a hook. Shaft aint gonna help a hook thats more swing related!

at best, the right shaft will reduce the prevalence of a bad miss. No shaft will fix 50 yards of movement either direction.

[tgrabowske]

Just now, rsballer10 said:

at best, the right shaft will reduce the prevalence of a bad miss. No shaft will fix 50 yards of movement either direction.

Exactly! Shaft helps deliver the club correctly. If you hit the middle often and you are hooking it, it aint the shafts fault!

[LongNwrong27]

25 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Is the head line for THIS tread, is "what does the PGA player plays and why"....
Nope....the head line is "Lowering spin rate on my driver".

My second sponsored player was Lasse sonne Nielsen, aka mr 61.
He still holds the Danish PGA record for lowest score on one round with 11 under par, and that's still the course record from back tee on my home course Condado De Alhama Signature in Murcia Spain. (Jack Nicklaus in person have designed it)

https://www.facebook.com/FoooreGolfLab/photos/pb.100088399625397.-2207520000/537041466327413/?type=3


Would his score have been even better if you made his clubs? 
...it sounds like that, since you think i dont know what im dealing with.


 

It’s interesting how you continue to pat yourself on the back instead of having the discussion on its merits. 

it’s funny bc you have changed what you’re saying to somewhat align with what I’m saying, but you don’t seem to understand. 

I think you post a lot of good stuff but also have some duds such as the prior posts about how elite players can add 20+ yards carry solely from FLOing their shafts, which has never been recreated and no OEM has found significant benefits of FLOing. 
 

trust but verify 

[hammergolf]

16 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

This is correct in that tour pros don't want spin to get too low as they would gladly give up a few yards off the tee for accuracy.  I can verify this as the assistant pro at my club used to play on the Asian Tour with James Hahn.  I've also had discussions with Brenden Steele back in the day when he would visit his old stomping grounds to see his friends and family and would stop by The Ranch(aka Casta Del Sol) to get in a round with his good buddy who was the head pro at the time.  They all say the same thing.  Low spin is great for launch monitors, but no bueno when the the stakes are high in a tournament.  

Exactly, there’s a big difference between playing golf and playing launch monitor.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, hammergolf said:

Exactly, there’s a big difference between playing golf and playing launch monitor.

Yup.  
I’ve fell into the trap of trying to get spin on good hits around 2k.  Everytime I do, I have my worst driving seasons.  Big misses show up as well as huge bombs (og sim!!)

 

nobody I know that with ball speeds above say 155 with driver and is a sub 10 cap plays a driver that’s setup for 2k or there about spin.

 

i think the outlier here we are focusing on has 134 ball speeds and is probably getting somewhere around 200-220 carry on the course at seas level with no wind.   If they have one knuckle and it drops out of the air it just rolls out farther but likely stays in play, which makes it playable for them.  At 165+ ball speeds that knuckler can cause some problems.

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, LongNwrong27 said:

It’s interesting how you continue to pat yourself on the back instead of having the discussion on its merits. 

it’s funny bc you have changed what you’re saying to somewhat align with what I’m saying, but you don’t seem to understand. 

I think you post a lot of good stuff but also have some duds such as the prior posts about how elite players can add 20+ yards carry solely from FLOing their shafts, which has never been recreated and no OEM has found significant benefits of FLOing. 
 

trust but verify 

I never did any testing with FLO or NOT FLO, non testing at all, so thats not from me, but a reference to my former student who now runs his own PFC center in Copenhagen Denmark. The number 20 yards dont ring a bell either, but if you are interested in that subject, go to the FB wall to Thomas Rosenberg, and read the players owns stories there, its NOT my words or work at all.

https://www.facebook.com/madebyrosenberg

im taking on vacation now, Good wind to all of you out there.

[phizzy30]

7 hours ago, LongNwrong27 said:

Don’t think most tour pros are trying to work their driver both ways and there is a wealth of data that suggests doing so is generally a bad move even for elite players. Majority of them have a stock shot they stick to, with some of them even having a separate club like a 3W made for shaping ball other way.  They also hit the ball much straighter with less curve than amateur golfers so I don’t agree they are pursuing higher than ideal spin for workability reasons. 

12 launch 2000 spin 180 ball speed vs 2500 spin and 5* axis tilt moves .3 yards more in curvature per flightscope so it’s a miniscule difference anyway or .7 yards if you make axis tilt 10*.  As I’ve said before I think it’s far more about eliminating low left miss which is the absolute worst miss you can have in high level golf, which tends to occur when spin gets too low. 

A majority of tour pros do tend to stick to their stock shots especially with driver.  It's harder to try and work the ball both ways  with the modern driver because of the tech and things like MOI as well as the modern ball spinning significantly less than the ones of yesteryear.  I remember years ago a PGA tour pro saying that when spin gets under 2000 rpm, it becomes unplayable for them.  They would much rather be playing from the fairway a little further back rather than be buried in deep rough even though they are closer to the hole distance wise.  Even Brendan Steele says it's more penalizing nowadays to not hit fairways in tournament plays because the tour has made the rough more penalizing by growing it out and on some courses, bringing the rough in order to make fairways more narrow.  The days of bomb and gouge are slowly going away.   

[PatScan]

Hi, hopefully no one minds me jumping in here but I have no one to speak to about this other than you folks.

 

I was at a simulator yesterday and was surprised by how high my driver spin was. Equipment and stats below (from my best swing):

 

Qi10 (normal one)

Tensei CK White 60 TX at 44.5” (or thereabout)

SS: 120.6

BS: 179.3

Carry: 307

Total: 319

Spin: 2900

Attack: 4.6

Club Path: -1

Face to Path: -1.1

 

Is that spin too high? Is it worth me looking at newer, lower spinning shafts? I hope the answer is yes because I like buying golf stuff.

 

Important to note: I’m deliberately trying to swing faster. I’ve not been able to play much golf so have been Bryson-ing at the simulator when I find a free moment. I would assume my on-course SS/BS to be more like 112-115, 165-170, which has been my historical average (and which I’m trying to increase by learning/training to give it a bigger rip).

 

Next time I go to the simulator I’ll get more details on the stats - was using the target setting which only shows eight, so the above is all I have.

 

Any insight would be much appreciated.

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, PatScan said:

Is that spin too high? Is it worth me looking at newer, lower spinning shafts? I hope the answer is yes because I like buying golf stuff.

 

A little high.   First step is to use foot powder spray to check your face impact location. 

 

You need to understand the problem before you can fix it.    High spin is either a face impact problem (low on face) or a dynamic loft problem.   And even if it's dynamic loft, the shaft contribution to that is usually (but not always) pretty small.  It might help but it's not usually the first thing to look at.  Changing loft is more reliable but will only do so much to fix what is usually a swing problem, not an equipment problem. 

 

A dynamic loft problem usually means the hands are too far behind the ball at impact.  Usually from trying to force a more upward AoA.   In that case, sometimes just lowering the tee height or moving the ball back in the stance might be enough to fix the problem.

Edited May 20 by Stuart_G

[PatScan]

Thanks Stu, will give try to work on keeping my hands ahead and keep you posted, assuming you’re now invested in my driver spin rate.

 

For what it’s worth, looking back at some old stats I kept, it looked like with a lower AoA my spin went down. Had always sort of thought the opposite was true in my head.

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, PatScan said:

For what it’s worth, looking back at some old stats I kept, it looked like with a lower AoA my spin went down. Had always sort of thought the opposite was true in my head.

 

It is a common mantra - but it's not as simple as people make it seem and it's very easy for it to backfire if not done in the right way.

 

I'm not a teaching pro - but as I understand it there are two ways to increase AoA.

 

1) Increase the upward movement of the club head relative to the hands.  Hands farther behind the ball at impact.   This increases AoA but it also increases dynamic loft so can increase spin or (at best) keep it the same.  It can also potentially make it harder to get center face contact - typically moving impact lower on the face which is another way spin can go up.

 

2) Get AoA increase from impact happening when the hands have more upward movement relative to the rest of the body or ground.  The hands will be ahead of the body and not as far behind the ball at impact.   This generally does not change the shaft lean or dynamic loft much.   This is the kind of increase in AoA that will more commonly reduce the spin.

 

1) is much easier and more intuitive to accomplish and what most am's end up doing when told to increase the AoA.   It can work for some but creating a high spin problem is fairly common. 

2) can be very difficult be pull off successfully - even with a good instructor.  So it's not so common to see outside of higher level or at least very athletic players.

 

 

Edited May 22 by Stuart_G

[PatScan]

16 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It is a common mantra - but it's not as simple as people make it seem and it's very easy for it to backfire if not done in the right way.

 

I'm not a teaching pro - but as I understand it there are two ways to increase AoA.

 

1) Increase the upward movement of the club head relative to the hands.  Hands farther behind the ball at impact.   This increases AoA but it also increases dynamic loft so can increase spin or (at best) keep it the same.  It can also potentially make it harder to get center face contact - typically moving impact lower on the face which can also another way spin can go up.

 

2) Get AoA increase from impact happening when the hands have more upward movement relative to the rest of the body or ground.  The hands will be ahead of the body and not as far behind the ball at impact.   This generally does not change the shaft lean or dynamic loft much.   This is the kind of increase in AoA that will more commonly reduce the spin.

 

1) is much easier and more intuitive to accomplish and what most am's end up doing when told to increase the AoA.   It can work for some but creating a high spin problem is fairly common. 

2) can be very difficult be pull off successfully - even with a good instructor.  So it's not so common to see outside of higher level or at least very athletic players.

 

 

Funny, I’m great at flipping the big stick. The shot I looked at from a few weeks ago had an AoA of 1.5 (which feels like -5 to me) at 115/171 and spin of 2165, with face, club, and face to path all zero’ed (approx.) and total was the same 319 as above.

 

Will give that feeling a try. Seems like it might be a better swing thought than “Bryson-ing”!

 

Really appreciate all your thoughtful feedback.