Are we talking about shaft fitting all wrong?

[EDT501]

Recently I've been thinking about the prevailing narratives around shaft design / fitting and have started to wonder if we talk about things in a counter-productive way here. I'll get into the meat of it below, but let's start with some caveats. I am not a professional golfer, fitter, coach, etc. I'm just a hobby tinkerer who's a little too gear oriented. So all the below should be taken with an enormous grain of salt!

 

Traditionally, there's been an emphasis on selecting shafts based on their advertised launch and spin characteristics—labels like "low launch" or "high spin" often dominate discussions. However, in my experience, these descriptors can be misleading. In my opinion, the true essence of shaft fitting lies not in these generalized labels but in how the shaft's weight and feel work with a golfer's unique swing dynamics. Consider this: when a golfer swings a club, their perception of the shaft's weight and flex can influence their swing mechanics, tempo, and overall confidence. A shaft that feels too stiff or too light might cause a golfer to adjust their swing subconsciously, leading to inconsistent results. Conversely, a shaft that complements a golfer's natural swing can enhance consistency and performance. I'd propose that shaft fitting is not about flight or spin and is entirely about giving the golfer the sensation of effortless control and power. I'd argue that by fitting for the shaft first and focusing on finding the correct weight and feel, the player will be starting with their most consistent baseline. From there the balance of the fitting is around club head design and loft for dialing in ideal launch characteristics.

 

I'll use myself as an example here. My natural ball flight is on the higher side, but isn't ballon-y. I generate a fair amount of power (I live in the mid to upper teens with the driver), but have a fairly deliberate non-aggressive move through the ball. With lighter shafts, I loose feel for where the clubbed is and my strikes get a bit haywire - that fits the general narrative. But what's interesting is what happens when you put something very linear and stiff in my hands... When I don't feel any load, I tend to get quicker. With irons I get steeper and with the driver I end up hitting up on the ball more. In both cases strike quality also suffers to some degree. The result is that my spin rates and ball flights actually increase becoming something that is inconsistent and less controlled - precisely the opposite of what the marketing materials and conventional wisdom would lead one to believe. Around two years ago I hit a point where I wanted a lower stock flight off the tee, I didn't change shafts, I just got a new head of the same type with lower loft and *poof!* I was hitting my flight window without any change in club feel or technique. 

 

I often read about players chasing a new shaft because they want to optimize certain launch monitor figures and wonder if all the talk of low vs high spin shafts has lead people into poor shaft fits when really they should have been looking at the club head rather than the shaft when fitting for launch conditions. Is the way we talk about shafts here inherently flawed and misleading? Are we assigning too much agency to the shaft itself, when really the shaft is exercising agency over us? Am I crazy and need to go away? Let me know what you think.

[Lefty Mondegreen]

Aren't you preaching to the choir, here ... ?

 

 

[EDT501]

3 hours ago, Lefty Mondegreen said:

Aren't you preaching to the choir, here ... ?

 

 

It’s a good point, I’m certainly not the only person to have voiced this perspective here and certainly some of those who have stated similar before, which as Howard, are far more authoritative than me.

 

Was hoping to spark a discussion with this thread about the way we talk about shafts generally. While there are pockets of the forum that are more in line with that thread you linked, I think the dominant narrative skews more towards the shaft being something that influences ball flight based on its own intrinsic characteristics 

[Cwebb]

Both are possibilities for different players.  The shaft can definitely promote tempo and timing....and it can also influence ball flight

[CTgamer]

Shafts don’t launch and spin, they’re a feel and timing device. Why do we say that? Because, yes, assuming particularly delivery characteristics, different shafts will deflect different amounts and add different amounts of loft. Given that forward deflection, players will see different launch and spin characteristics from a shaft (even if “high launch low spin” shafts are categorically impossible based on the physics). 
 

That said, if we give those shafts to a sample of 1000 players, some percentage will see the advertised launch and spin characteristics. Some will see the opposite. Some will see somewhere in between. And the percentages are a lot more split than those marketing terms would like to admit. 
 

If, on the other hand, I increase the loft of the club - 100% of those players will see higher launch and spin. In other words, the shaft’s contribution to ball flight is highly subjective and player dependent - except, the shaft feel (along with total weight and swing weight), will always impact contact and strike. Once we dial in feel and timing (and get strike consistent), we can move onto head selection to dial in launch and spin. But the idea that we select head first, and use shaft to dial in launch and spin second, is hugely misguided. 

 

Definitely think continuing/emphasizing this conversation is worthwhile, but if you’re going to a fitter that’s saying shaft is the primary determinant of launch and spin, you should 💯 be going somewhere else 

[Pnwpingi210]

A golf shaft is a timing and energy delivery device.  Pick the one that lets you find the center of the club face the most.  Dial in flight and spin with head and ball.

Edited May 2 by Pnwpingi210

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, EDT501 said:

Traditionally, there's been an emphasis on selecting shafts based on their advertised launch and spin characteristics—labels like "low launch" or "high spin" often dominate discussions.

 

Not sure I agree that that really has been the prevailing narrative.

 

But I do agree that many with some knowledge but without a solid background do get overly focused on those characteristics.  Sort of the ones that know just enough to be dangerous.  

 

It's unfortunate, but fairly natural to expect based on the way the clubs are marketed or spec'd by the OEM's.    The shaft OEM's can't really put out full profile data so all they can do is list things like weight, torque and the over-simplified launch characteristics.  That's all those starting to learn about shafts have to work with so they get overly focused on those specs.

 

 

Edited May 2 by Stuart_G

[rsballer10]

• I think shaft OEM's are doing a better job of providing EI curves. They may not be standardized, but at least you can compare within that particular manufacturer.
• The notion that shafts will produce predictable launch/spin manipulations in human testing has been debunked.
• Certain players can see their launch conditions change according to the marketing literature.
• It's easy to tell ourselves that we are, in fact, the rare unicorn that gets drastic changes in ball flight from shaft changes. 

I think a great shaft is one that suits your timing not just on your 110% LD swings on trackman, but on your 80% 'fairway finder' swing.

[Howard_Jones]

15 hours ago, Lefty Mondegreen said:

Aren't you preaching to the choir, here ... ?

 

 

In THIS tech forum, most frequent users should know that tread, but outside of this forum, its not common knowledge.
This year there came a article about it on the spy forum, but its a long way to go before its common knowledge.

[OBbogey5]

We are all trying to hit the exact same shot spin/side-spin wise. About yay much spin. About yay high, etc. All of our swings are different so we need a specific tool to create that general shot. I dunno… what ever happened to improving the golf swing. Feel, sure, But all these flexes and stiffnesses tip/mid/butt, and weighs, materials. It’s wild. Wouldn’t a principle be that if we’re chasing shafts our golf swings are always one step behind. The shaft we need to learn how to hit is in the hands of those tour pros. Pretty much all the same flex and weight. They have that swing, so we’d be better off working on the swing to handle those 6X tipped boards than chasing shafts. This is. It an anti-tech comment. Just replaying to the topic on philosophy. 
 

(Can’t wait to get my Blue VeloCore+ 53x !!)

[WristySwing]

I'll add a different perspective here, the manufacturers put those labels on the shafts because they need to. They know that there is really only about 1* of launch and about 300 RPMs of difference between the stiffest rebar they sell to the wettest noodle they sell. This has been verified numerous times on robots, if any difference even exists at all. The issue is, humans are not robots, we are influenced by feel and stiffness/weight of a shaft. However, the manufacturers cannot just put a blanket "get fit, all shafts do different things to different people" on their website because not everyone has access to those resources or is willing to pay to do that. Instead, they put these labels on their shafts relative to the other shafts in the same lineup or relative to some sort of company-wide benchmark they deem as mid/mid/mid.

 

Think of it like a spice level at a restaurant. Some restaurants have 4 levels of spicy, which ultimately mean nothing because everyone has their own tolerance for what spice means. However, they need to put those labels on as some sort of scaling so the customer understands what to order to likely fit their tastes the best.

Edited May 7 by WristySwing

[Witt80]

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Edited May 8 by Witt80
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