Moving up a set of tees, your opinions

[vandyfan]

19 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Head blown at your goal being to increase your index. WTF?

 

Short story is my course is overrated and thus handicaps don't "travel" well. I just don't want to show up as a "3" playing with a bunch of other 3 indexes who are clearly 2-3 shots better than me. I don't play for money very often, if at all, it is really just more embarrassing to come across as a vanity handicapper. Ultimately, I play golf like a 6-7 index so that is what I want to be on GHIN. As I pointed out above, my average differential at other courses (same sample size) over the last year is about 8 and my average differential at my home club (again, same sample size) is 4. That is, to me, an absurd delta.  

Edited May 13 by vandyfan

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, vandyfan said:

 

Short story is my course is overrated and thus handicaps don't "travel" well. I just don't want to show up as a "3" playing with a bunch of other 3 indexes who are clearly 2-3 shots better than me. I don't play for money very often, if at all, it is really just more embarrassing to come across as a vanity handicapper. Ultimately, I play golf like a 6-7 index so that is what I want to be on GHIN. As I pointed out above, my average differential at other courses (same sample size) over the last year is about 8 and my average differential at my home club (again, same sample size) is 4. That is, to me, an absurd delta.  

Okay, I see that. Have the club requested a new rating?

[vandyfan]

6 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Okay, I see that. Have the club requested a new rating?

 

Supposedly it is getting re-rated this year but that has been the rumor for the last few years. Sadly, I believe there are powerful people at the club who want the rating to be a certain number so it compares favorably to another club in town which I cannot even begin to understand. 

[TheDeanAbides]

25 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

Supposedly it is getting re-rated this year but that has been the rumor for the last few years. Sadly, I believe there are powerful people at the club who want the rating to be a certain number so it compares favorably to another club in town which I cannot even begin to understand. 

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. Higher rating gives kudos.

[rsballer10]

22 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. Higher rating gives kudos.

This is a much bigger issue w/ the public courses in my neck of the woods. I think at it's heart, course and slope ratings are somewhat subjective.

 

However, my handicap of 3.2 at it's low (last year) and it's current 3.5 are heavily skewed by a handful of low rounds from the white tees playing in a work group. We've got a broad range of hitters from ~220 off the tee, to me who's closer to the 280-290 range on a stock shot. Therefore, for the league I've always recommended we play between 6,000-6250 yards for the enjoyment of the group, regardless of the color tee marker.

 

In the 3 times I've shot even par in my life, the max differential has been 2.8, with the other 2 times being 2.2 and 1.8. These are for courses that play 6,000 yards, most of them having at least 1-2 drivable par 4's, and all the par 5's are somewhat reachable in 2. Meanwhile, there is a US open qualifier course in my area where I shot an 83 (+11, differential 11.1). There were factors outside the course rating (mainly it rained for 4-5 straight days before we played and they hadn't mowed the rough, it was US Open length). However, even under normal conditions from the whites, this course is easily more than 2 strokes harder than a typical muni course.

 

Our choices are to complain about the handicap system, or just be aware of it's limitations and use it for what it's worth. On harder courses, I'm probably a 5-8 handicap.

• Handicaps don't really 'travel' IMO. Lots of courses don't even play to the yardage that's on the card. From a strokes gained perspective, pretty sure the course rating is incorrect right of the bat.
• No course wants to have a low course and slope rating, even if it's obvious by playing. 
• Handicaps can only do so much to level the playing field. I play in a group of 8, where I'm giving the 7 others a minimum 18 shots each. In the (2) league rounds where I've shot even par, neither round was the low net. We've got guys in the group who shoot 87, then follow it up with 100+ the next week. If I shoot anything over 80, it's considered a bad round. We just aren't playing the same game. But it's a friend group, so I just focus on trying to put up decent scores and have fun.
• Skins are basically impossible to handicap. I can't give 7 others a shot a hole and reasonably win anything. Conversely, without handicapping it I will win the entire pot most times.

Edited May 14 by rsballer10

[TheDeanAbides]

46 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

This is a much bigger issue w/ the public courses in my neck of the woods. I think at it's heart, course and slope ratings are somewhat subjective.

 

However, my handicap of 3.2 at it's low (last year) and it's current 3.5 are heavily skewed by a handful of low rounds from the white tees playing in a work group. We've got a broad range of hitters from ~220 off the tee, to me who's closer to the 280-290 range on a stock shot. Therefore, for the league I've always recommended we play between 6,000-6250 yards for the enjoyment of the group, regardless of the color tee marker.

 

In the 3 times I've shot even par in my life, the max differential has been 2.8, with the other 2 times being 2.2 and 1.8. These are for courses that play 6,000 yards, most of them having at least 1-2 drivable par 4's, and all the par 5's are somewhat reachable in 2. Meanwhile, there is a US open qualifier course in my area where I shot an 83 (+11, differential 11.1). There were factors outside the course rating (mainly it rained for 4-5 straight days before we played and they hadn't mowed the rough, it was US Open length). However, even under normal conditions from the whites, this course is easily more than 2 strokes harder than a typical muni course.

 

Our choices are to complain about the handicap system, or just be aware of it's limitations and use it for what it's worth. On harder courses, I'm probably a 5-8 handicap.

• Handicaps don't really 'travel' IMO. Lots of courses don't even play to the yardage that's on the card. From a strokes gained perspective, pretty sure the course rating is incorrect right of the bat.
• No course wants to have a low course and slope rating, even if it's obvious by playing. 
• Handicaps can only do so much to level the playing field. I play in a group of 8, where I'm giving the 7 others a minimum 18 shots each. In the (2) league rounds where I've shot even par, neither round was the low net. We've got guys in the group who shoot 87, then follow it up with 100+ the next week. If I shoot anything over 80, it's considered a bad round. We just aren't playing the same game. But it's a friend group, so I just focus on trying to put up decent scores and have fun.
• Skins are basically impossible to handicap. I can't give 7 others a shot a hole and reasonably win anything. Conversely, without handicapping it I will win the entire pot most times.

I'll be honest, I don't really know anything at all about the handicap system. Mine has always been amongst friends that I've played with - never had an official one. I totally agree about them rarely travelling with though. 

 

I played regularly with a guy who played off 3, but played all over the place too. If he'd played his course exclusively he'd have been scratch, but liked to challenge himself. Another guy I played with couldn't handle the course we played at all and was a shadow of the player he was on his home course comfort zone. 

[vandyfan]

2 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

Handicaps don't really 'travel' IMO. Lots of courses don't even play to the yardage that's on the card. From a strokes gained perspective, pretty sure the course rating is incorrect right of the bat.

 

This is a really good point. To combat this, some guys play "from the stones" which is the granite yardage markers that show where the tees are rated from...if that makes sense. So basically you have the moveable tee markers (wherever they are on that day, could be 40 yds different from the stones) and the stones. In my experience, the 70-80% of the time the tee markers are in front (or shorter) than the "stones" so the course almost always plays easier from the daily tee settings than the permanent marker....thus why some people play from the permanent marker. Apparently the head pro does not like this because it screws up the handicapping for the day AND on par 3s it obviously would present a divot problem if everyone ignored the tee markers and played from the permanent granite stones. 

[rsballer10]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'll be honest, I don't really know anything at all about the handicap system. Mine has always been amongst friends that I've played with - never had an official one. I totally agree about them rarely travelling with though. 

 

I played regularly with a guy who played off 3, but played all over the place too. If he'd played his course exclusively he'd have been scratch, but liked to challenge himself. Another guy I played with couldn't handle the course we played at all and was a shadow of the player he was on his home course comfort zone. 

I don't know much outside of what an index is, what your average score is, what a course and slope rating is etc. Never been a member of a club, or been on a board that makes these decisions.

 

I keep one because I used to play in a lot of "team play" rounds on the weekends at local courses. It helped them flight the teams into A,B,C,D players. I used to be a consistent B player, A at other courses but I would pretty much an A at all of the time now. I don't get out as much since our daughter's birth, but I still log my rounds.

 

There's obvious limitations to the handicap system, and they always rear their heads in net score competition.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, rsballer10 said:

I don't know much outside of what an index is, what your average score is, what a course and slope rating is etc. Never been a member of a club, or been on a board that makes these decisions.

 

I keep one because I used to play in a lot of "team play" rounds on the weekends at local courses. It helped them flight the teams into A,B,C,D players. I used to be a consistent B player, A at other courses but I would pretty much an A at all of the time now. I don't get out as much since our daughter's birth, but I still log my rounds.

 

There's obvious limitations to the handicap system, and they always rear their heads in net score competition.

Yeah, agreed. There isn't a process or system that some humans somewhere won't try and manipulate. 

[rsballer10]

8 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

This is a really good point. To combat this, some guys play "from the stones" which is the granite yardage markers that show where the tees are rated from...if that makes sense. So basically you have the moveable tee markers (wherever they are on that day, could be 40 yds different from the stones) and the stones. In my experience, the 70-80% of the time the tee markers are in front (or shorter) than the "stones" so the course almost always plays easier from the daily tee settings than the permanent marker....thus why some people play from the permanent marker. Apparently the head pro does not like this because it screws up the handicapping for the day AND on par 3s it obviously would present a divot problem if everyone ignored the tee markers and played from the permanent granite stones. 

It's definitely important to move the tee markers around to allow parts of the tee box to be repaired and maintained throughout the year. 

 

Courses definitely tend to favor moving the tees up. I bet because so many people play too far back. I tell the guys in my league who are mostly all 25+ HC they don't need to be playing 6500+ yards. I get pushback every week for it 🙂 

[bluedot]

As to handicaps “traveling”…

 

First of all, your index the average of the best 8 differentials of your last 20 rounds; of those 8, the math of an average says that you can expect 4 to be below and 4 above your index. So for any given round, even at your home course, you’re only likely ON AVERAGE to meet or better your index one round out of 5, or 4 out of 20.  Your index is NOT meant to be considered an average of all of your rounds.

 

Beyond that, how well your handicap “travels” is also dependent on how much YOU travel.  If you play the same course for most of your rounds, there’s a very good chance your index will be lower than someone of the same skill level who plays their golf at a lot of different courses routinely.  Because…

 

At your home course, you know what club to use on the par 3’s.  On your home course, you know your lay up distances, and don’t accidentally hit a good shot into a bunker or hazard or through the fairway.  On your home course, you know exactly what line to take off the tee, whether you can execute it or not.  Perhaps most importantly, on your home course, you have a knowledge bank about the greens; how fast, how grainy, where to stay below the hole at all costs, and so on.

 

Even on our home course, bad stuff happens; far more-so on an away course.  So the bottom line is that expecting to meet or better your index in an away round probably isn’t realistic.

[mshills]

If your handicap “doesn’t travel” then something is usually wrong. The player is usually manipulating scores and hurting himself. An index is the same on every course, the course handicap should take care of the different difficulty course vs course. 
 

The “I’m an 8 index, so I should shoot 80 on this par 72. My buddy is scratch, why don’t I ever see him shoot even?” is a whole different misconception and is wildly wrong. 

[golfortennis]

Back on the OP's question, play whatever tees you want.  Anyone who says "a group should all play from the same tees" should be told to play with 3 women, and see if they play the forward tees with them.  Why should you have to play a game you don't want to play because *they* can't hit it as far as you?

 

Don't be stupid about it, but don't feel like you have to play where every one else does.  If you're not playing a match, and even at that if handicaps are involved then it's not a big deal, then it doesn't matter.  It's not a match, so just like it's not my place to "give" putts, there is no need to play the same tees if if they aren't your preference.

[larrybud]

On 5/5/2025 at 2:53 PM, Barnacle said:

First, I recognize this topic has been brought up time and time again, but rather than necroposting an old thread and based on current preference by the USGA stating you should play the tee box that fits your driver distance, I figured it best to start a new topic.

Well according to my average distance (300+ at my elevation) with my driver I should be playing the back tees or one up. My issue stems from two things. Most of the guys I play with are closer to the 250 mark but because I'm playing with them, they want to play from tees that IMO are too far for them, and two I can't play from late fall to early spring here, so I usually spend the first 3 months getting back into decent golf. I would much rather play from the tees playing 5800-6000 yards than tees playing from 6300-6500 yards.

If you want to practice wedges all day, then by all means, move up.

 

If you want to practice your full bag, then determine which tees those would be.

[larrybud]

On 5/14/2025 at 6:39 PM, mshills said:

If your handicap “doesn’t travel” then something is usually wrong.

If "Travel" means playing a course you've never played before or are nearly completely unfamiliar with, there's a separate skill in being able to score well on those courses. You have to be able to learn to read the terrain and understand misses. A lot easier these days with gps and overhead course layouts, that's for sure.

[vandyfan]

New simple math for what tees you should play (workshopping this, people will hate this)

 

Average Driving Distance on PGA Tour: 300 yds
Average Course Length on PGA Tour: 7,400 yds
Course / Driving Distance = Factor of 24.66

 

So for me, Average Driving Distance is 260 yds * 24.66 = 6,411 yds should kind of be my top end. I would then add 200 yds if you are a plus handicap. For anyone that is an 8 or above, I would start subtracting yardage. 

 

Also, for fun, here is Rory's calculation

Driving Distance: 319
Average Course Length: 7,400
Factor: 23.2

 

260 * 23.2 = 6,032 yds

 

By the way, the USGA's Factor of 28 is ridiculous. If Rory played courses with a factor of 28 they would be 8,900 yds. 

[596]

31 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

New simple math for what tees you should play (workshopping this, people will hate this)

 

Average Driving Distance on PGA Tour: 300 yds
Average Course Length on PGA Tour: 7,400 yds
Course / Driving Distance = Factor of 24.66

 

So for me, Average Driving Distance is 260 yds * 24.66 = 6,411 yds should kind of be my top end. I would then add 200 yds if you are a plus handicap. For anyone that is an 8 or above, I would start subtracting yardage. 

 

Also, for fun, here is Rory's calculation

Driving Distance: 319
Average Course Length: 7,400
Factor: 23.2

 

260 * 23.2 = 6,032 yds

 

By the way, the USGA's Factor of 28 is ridiculous. If Rory played courses with a factor of 28 they would be 8,900 yds. 

Average golfer driving distance is less then 220 yards.  Going by this calculation the average golfer should be playing less then 5,500 yards.   And actually closer to 5200.  

 

And I totally agree. 90% of all golfers play courses that are too long, not only from distance calculations but from ability too.

 

 

[garyt]

On 5/5/2025 at 2:53 PM, Barnacle said:

 

So what does golfwrx think. Should I stay at my current tee boxes or move up? 

Do whatever if it makes it fun. It's just a game. Maybe jump around. Play the whites and drive some greens. Next time play the tips and really challenge yourself, next time the blues. Who cares?

[Pepperturbo]

On 5/5/2025 at 11:53 AM, Barnacle said:

First, I recognize this topic has been brought up time and time again, but rather than necroposting an old thread and based on current preference by the USGA stating you should play the tee box that fits your driver distance, I figured it best to start a new topic.

Well according to my average distance (300+ at my elevation) with my driver I should be playing the back tees or one up. My issue stems from two things. Most of the guys I play with are closer to the 250 mark but because I'm playing with them, they want to play from tees that IMO are too far for them, and two I can't play from late fall to early spring here, so I usually spend the first 3 months getting back into decent golf. I would much rather play from the tees playing 5800-6000 yards than tees playing from 6300-6500 yards. I typically have to wait for the group in front of me to hit their second shot on par 4's and 5's regardless so I don't think pace of play would be affected. It also might improve my score, which is an ego thing more than anything else, but its not like I'm trying to go pro. Additionally a few years back I was playing every Saturday morning with two older gentlemen and they always played the white tees at the course we played and we had a blast because it brought several par 4's into drivable range and we always teed off first thing in the morning so never had to worry about waiting for greens to clear. Now when playing with my regular group I would just tee off last to avoid hitting into anyone. 

So what does golfwrx think. Should I stay at my current tee boxes or move up? 

There is nothing wrong with playing shorter tees.  I am in SOCAL at sea-level, hit the ball a measly 250+ relatively straight, and typically play 6400+-6000 depending on how my body feels.  What I won't do is play yardages/tees suggested by conversion tables, conditions and overall skill are factors.  Courses at 5500+/- are easy.

 

Usually when I play 6k or less, to make it challenging, I don't use a driver or 3wd.  I rely on long irons off tees and my wedge game for par or better.  You'll hear it over and over, play the tees you feel comfortable with, that fit your skill level.

Edited June 11 by Pepperturbo

[Pepperturbo]

On 5/13/2025 at 7:55 AM, vandyfan said:

 

Supposedly it is getting re-rated this year but that has been the rumor for the last few years. Sadly, I believe there are powerful people at the club who want the rating to be a certain number so it compares favorably to another club in town which I cannot even begin to understand. 

During my past pvt Interclub match play life, we encountered a private club with a somewhat similar attitude.  Their course was short -6000k, yet played longer and more difficult than it's rating.  I later learned, club members didn't want the course re-rated because it gave them a sneaky advantage when competing against other clubs.  

[Barnacle]

So just following up, thanks for all the insight everyone. I’ve experimented with different tee boxes now both on my own and with a group. My scores did trend down from the closer tee boxes but it wasn’t as fun because it’s just driver wedge and even par 5’s are driver short iron. It did help with pace of play with the group but actually probably slowed me down playing as a single.