Seriously, I Have a Driver Loft Question

[shavdog1968]

Me....Just turned 75...I have a 5 hc and a natural fader...not slicer.....never had a lesson, grew up playing baseball and everything I know is self taught..Our season here in Minnesota is short but I still manage to get in around 75 rounds...last yr my best was 71(twice) and my worst was 84....I practice when not playing...My strong point is I am consistent...I can play a lot of holes in a row with par...anyway, that's me...Last fall I had a driver fitting...It was thorough...the fitter picked up quickly that I fade the ball...I ended up with a Callaway Smoke 9 degree max....long story short when I make a squared up contact my drives for me are long...maybe 250-260...avg otherwise is 230...the other day on the range I hit around 100 balls(with multiple adjustments) and I would say 90-95% had some kind of tail and ZERO draws...bottom line heres my question....I read online that a 9 degree driver is mostly meant for high swing speed players....in excess of 100 mph...I know there can be exceptions but the gist of those articles said someone like me in the 92-95 mpg would be better off with a 10.5 driver...looking for opinions...before the smoke driver I used a 12.5 Callaway Big Bertha B21..that had alot of spin...maybe I went too far

[Jtgavigan]

It all depends on your launch conditions. Some people's swings add loft (mine does) and we end up playing lower lofts. People who fade the ball also tend to spin it a lot as well as launch it high. 

 

So, lowering the loft can be a way to get ideal launch conditions. Launch and spin optimization is key. 

[Old Tom Morris]

Also depends on dynamic loft.  I.e. the amount of loft you are delivering at impact.

[shavdog1968]

Won't lowering the loft open the face up more?.....right now and at the end of last season I have it at +1 and Draw...I thought going to a + 1 closes the face while going _1 would open it up ...I am willing to try anything..I think my whole point is that a 9 degree driver is probably more difficult to hit straight because of its flatter face and a need for a truer swing...mine is not that....with todays technology changes I don't think a 10.5 would create lesser distance than a 9...maybe not as much rollout...I do hit the 9degree fairly low as I need to tee it up lower or I sky it...I have no issues with a 4wood or 5 wood...I can draw both of those and my hybrids

Edited May 11 by shavdog1968

[jarediogolf]

1 hour ago, shavdog1968 said:

I think my whole point is that a 9 degree driver is probably more difficult to hit straight because of its flatter face and a need for a truer swing

 

Yes, I find more loft goes straighter, but you sound like a pretty good golfer. 

 

You could buy the 9* head and you can always loft up the Callaway two degrees to 11* and it will close the face a bit as well which you might like. 
 

I’ve tried lofting up my 9* Callaway to 11* and you will get a lot more height and some more left bias. 

[Lefty Mondegreen]

Design Notes - Drivers  

 

Dave Tutelman's take ...

Edited May 13 by Lefty Mondegreen

[WesternRacing]

I’m 59 and my ball flight is straight to a moderate draw, never a hint fade or slice at all, and I’m definitely not a high swing speed player.  Driver carry in the air is 250-255, 240 on a bad shot, 265 on a good one.  I play a 9 degree Sim2Max.  I think I add a fair bit of dynamic loft with my swing, as every time I test a 10.5 degree driver, the ball flight is too high.

Edited May 11 by WesternRacing

[gdb99]

There are more 9* driver heads on the LPGA Tour, and 10.5 - 11* driver heads on the PGA Tour. 
 

Like was said, it depends on your delivery. Sounds like you have a good swing. If it’s not fitting you, try a higher lofted head. 

[Stuart_G]

On 5/11/2025 at 11:44 AM, shavdog1968 said:

.bottom line heres my question....I read online that a 9 degree driver is mostly meant for high swing speed players....in excess of 100 mph..

 

Not surprised, there is a lot of bad information to be found online.   At worst it's just plane mis-information or long debunked myths.  At best it's in the form of advice that is based on very rough generalizations - targeting people who don't have the time or want to make the effort to find or get a more personally tailored answers.

 

As the others have said,  when it comes to what's best for an individual, what's important is the dynamic loft delivered into impact.   Yes slower swing speed players tend to need more dynamic loft than faster players, but that's not the same as saying they always need more static loft.

 

 

On 5/11/2025 at 12:18 PM, shavdog1968 said:

Won't lowering the loft open the face up more?.

 

Yes.  But not everyone is effected by the face angle changes the same.  Play around with different setting to see what happens to your left/right shot shape.   If changing the setting effects does effect the shot shape for you, than you need to use the adjustment as a face angle setting and not a loft setting.  If it doesn't, then go ahead and use it as a loft setting.

 

 

On 5/11/2025 at 12:18 PM, shavdog1968 said:

.I think my whole point is that a 9 degree driver is probably more difficult to hit straight because of its flatter face and a need for a truer swing..

 

Sorry but there is just no objective truth to that.  1.5 degrees of loft is just not very significant in that respect.

 

Now just thinking it might be harder can be enough to negatively effect your confidence and the quality of the results.  If that's the case, then by all means loft up.  And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that as a valid reason.  What goes on in our heads is just as important (if not more so) than reasons backed by science and physics.  Just be realistic about the true reason for doing it. 🙂

 

Edited May 15 by Stuart_G

[gvogel]

The nice thing about a 10.5 loft for the OP is that he could open the face a bit, and still have more loft than the 9*.

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, gvogel said:

The nice thing about a 10.5 loft for the OP is that he could open the face a bit, and still have more loft than the 9*.

 

But we don't know if he needs more loft.  He might even have too much with the 9* head.   Bottom line, we don't know what his numbers were - but you can be certain that the fitter who put him into a 9* head did know his numbers.   Now of course we know nothing about how good a fitter the OP saw or even whether or not things might have changed since them.  But so far we've got nothing to indicate that there is actually any problem with the current set up that needs to be fixed - much less whether higher loft would be that fix.    All we have is the known actions of a fitter who actually saw the OP hit balls and that the OP read a generic article that is know giving the OP some doubts about that fitting.

 

Edited May 12 by Stuart_G

[Golfdoctor]

I love my Ping's and being in my seventies I played the senior shaft, but was hitting the ball very high and slight fade. Thought of going to the 9.0° to bring down the flight. Called Ping and was told to stay with the 10.5° but go with the Ping Tour 2.0 shaft in Regular flex. Now my drives are straight and longer than ever.

[phizzy30]

On 5/11/2025 at 3:49 PM, gdb99 said:

There are more 9* driver heads on the LPGA Tour, and 10.5 - 11* driver heads on the PGA Tour. 
 

Like was said, it depends on your delivery. Sounds like you have a good swing. If it’s not fitting you, try a higher lofted head. 

Yep.  The ladies hit up on it more in excess of 2*.  The guys are -2 to +2 average.   

[Ri_Redneck]

On 5/11/2025 at 12:18 PM, shavdog1968 said:

Won't lowering the loft open the face up more?.....right now and at the end of last season I have it at +1 and Draw...I thought going to a + 1 closes the face while going _1 would open it up ...I am willing to try anything..I think my whole point is that a 9 degree driver is probably more difficult to hit straight because of its flatter face and a need for a truer swing...mine is not that....with todays technology changes I don't think a 10.5 would create lesser distance than a 9...maybe not as much rollout...I do hit the 9degree fairly low as I need to tee it up lower or I sky it...I have no issues with a 4wood or 5 wood...I can draw both of those and my hybrids

 The part in bold means that when you square your 9* it is actually 10*. Not sure if you're actually squaring it at impact or not though. Your best option is to search your local stores for a 10.5 Smoke driver that you can demo on your shaft as a comparison. That would tell you everything you need to know.

 

BTW, I am 62 w/ Dr SS around 108 and play my Speedzone driver in my sig at 10.5 and have no issues at all with ballooning.

 

BT

[mousefoo]

Don't forget there are manufacturing tolerances on clubs. Unless you measure the specs on a gauge, the actual loft/face angle of your head is unknown.

[shavdog1968]

On 5/12/2025 at 6:38 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

Not surprised, there is a lot of bad information to be found online.   At worst it's just plane mis-information or long debunked myths.  At best it's in the form of advice that is based on very rough generalizations - targeting people who don't have the time or want to make the effort to find or get a more personally tailored answers.

 

As the others have said,  when it comes to what's best for an individual, what's important is the dynamic loft delivered into impact.   Yes slower swing speed players tend to need more dynamic loft than faster players, but that's not the same as saying they always need more static loft.

 

 

 

Yes.  But not everyone is effected by the face angle changes the same.  Play around with different setting to see what happens to your left/right shot shape.   If changing the setting effects does effect the shot shape for you, than you need to use the adjustment as a face angle setting and not a loft setting.  If it doesn't, then go ahead and use it as a loft setting.

 

 

 

Sorry but there is just no objective truth to that.  Sorry but 1.5 degrees of loft is just not very significant in that respect.

 

Now just thinking it might be harder can be enough to negatively effect your confidence and the quality of the results.  If that's the case, then by all means loft up.  And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that as a valid reason.  What goes on in our heads is just as important (if not more so) than reasons backed by science and physics.  Just be realistic about the true reason for doing it. 🙂

 

 

[shavdog1968]

Stuart....question for you....I have looked at and hit Ping, Callaway and Taylormade draw based drivers...I am not convinced the draw based feature does that much in terms of correcting a less than ideal swing...I also tried a few different shafts from regular to senior...my swing is in the low to mid 90's and a mostly smooth transition...I still end up with the fade ...my overall distance is ok but I think I lose probably 20 yards because of the fade....I plan on trying the different settings as you recommended....now back  to the shaft....Is the only solution to this is a shaft fitting?....and whats the likely hood of finding a proper match so I can hit it straight or even a slight draw....Last fall when I had my driver fitting he had me try out 3-4 different shafts but ended up with the Vanquish shaft that was more or less being packaged with the Callaway smoke driver.....yesterday I played with a guy that had a 10.5 Taylormade Qi10 max...results were not as good as my Smoke 9 max...even with all the technology advances, is it realistic to think I can correct my less than ideal swing with a manufactured equipment..or am I a dreamer......the only alternative for unused shafts would be to stake up tomato plants....A lesson is another possibility...but I like to figure out stuff on my own....thanks for any comments

Edited May 15 by shavdog1968

[phizzy30]

24 minutes ago, shavdog1968 said:

Stuart....question for you....I have looked at and hit Ping, Callaway and Taylormade draw based drivers...I am not convinced the draw based feature does that much in terms of correcting a less than ideal swing...I also tried a few different shafts from regular to senior...my swing is in the low to mid 90's and a mostly smooth transition...I still end up with the fade ...my overall distance is ok but I think I lose probably 20 yards because of the fade....I plan on trying the different settings as you recommended....now back  to the shaft....Is the only solution to this is a shaft fitting?....and whats the likely hood of finding a proper match so I can hit it straight or even a slight draw....Last fall when I had my driver fitting he had me try out 3-4 different shafts but ended up with the Vanquish shaft that was more or less being packaged with the Callaway smoke driver.....yesterday I played with a guy that had a 10.5 Taylormade Qi10 max...results were not as good as my Smoke 9 max...even with all the technology advances, is it realistic to think I can correct my less than ideal swing with a manufactured equipment..or am I a dreamer......the only alternative for unused shafts would be to stake up tomato plants....A lesson is another possibility...but I like to figure out stuff on my own....thanks for any comments

Your swing path and face angle are the culprit here.  Equipment can only do so much to correct your swing flaws.  Lessons are the solution here, IMO.  

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, shavdog1968 said:

Stuart....question for you....I have looked at and hit Ping, Callaway and Taylormade draw based drivers...I am not convinced the draw based feature does that much in terms of correcting a less than ideal swing

 

There are a lot of factors involved, but in general I agree.

 

1 hour ago, shavdog1968 said:

my overall distance is ok but I think I lose probably 20 yards because of the fade..

 

A properly fit driver wont loose distance with a fade.  But it depends on how much of "fade" you have.  If it might be considered by some as a slice instead of a fade then it certainly can cause a loss of distance.  That dividing line between fade and slice can be pretty fuzzy.

 

1 hour ago, shavdog1968 said:

now back  to the shaft....Is the only solution to this is a shaft fitting?

 

First of all, I haven't really seen enough data about your ball flight to support that there really is a problem that needs to be fixed or what exactly the problem might be if there is one.   So what you're asking is similar to asking a doctor what drugs you should take before you give him a chance to actually do the check up and make a diagnosis.

 

I wouldn't consider a fade, by itself a problem.  Lots of high level players exclusively play a fade with the driver.

 

But that said, if you're, analogously speaking, more into self medication 🙂 how a shaft change might effect the ball flight results (left/right tendencies as well as launch/spin) is even more subjective than how the hossel adjustment might effect the ball flight.   Only actual testing will tell you what going softer or firmer or heavier or lighter with a shaft will do to the ball flight.  That's not anything anyone here can answer.

 

1 hour ago, shavdog1968 said:

is it realistic to think I can correct my less than ideal swing with a manufactured equipment..or am I a dreamer

 

Correct?  No.   But in some cases, the equipment can offer some amount of compensation to reduce the severity of a swing problem.  How much and if it will be enough? - again goes back to needing to test different options and also what exactly your expectations might be.    So, for example, you might be able to influence the consistency of the shot shape or even reduce the severity of it.

 

But the equipment choices that are most likely to effect the driver ball flight is (in order):

1) playing length

2) shaft weight and/or head weight

3) face angle

4) shaft stiffness - maybe - maybe not.

 

All things that are best addressed in the DIY tune up tutorial that Howard wrote up for folks like you who have those types of questions.

 

 

 

Edited May 15 by Stuart_G

[shavdog1968]

Thanks for your comments and help Stuart...

[Pepperturbo]

On 5/11/2025 at 8:44 AM, shavdog1968 said:

Me....Just turned 75...I have a 5 hc and a natural fader...not slicer.....never had a lesson, grew up playing baseball and everything I know is self taught..Our season here in Minnesota is short but I still manage to get in around 75 rounds...last yr my best was 71(twice) and my worst was 84....I practice when not playing...My strong point is I am consistent...I can play a lot of holes in a row with par...anyway, that's me...Last fall I had a driver fitting...It was thorough...the fitter picked up quickly that I fade the ball...I ended up with a Callaway Smoke 9 degree max....long story short when I make a squared up contact my drives for me are long...maybe 250-260...avg otherwise is 230...the other day on the range I hit around 100 balls(with multiple adjustments) and I would say 90-95% had some kind of tail and ZERO draws...bottom line heres my question....I read online that a 9 degree driver is mostly meant for high swing speed players....in excess of 100 mph...I know there can be exceptions but the gist of those articles said someone like me in the 92-95 mpg would be better off with a 10.5 driver...looking for opinions...before the smoke driver I used a 12.5 Callaway Big Bertha B21..that had alot of spin...maybe I went too far

One year younger, same handi.  For years, I played 905S then TS2 driver, 9.5 set a degree weak.  When Titleist introduced TSR2, I went with 10' and stayed with it though GT3. 

 

Late last year, after extended experience playing a buddies Callaway driver, I came home and bought the same Rogue ST Max 10.5 and had a Diamana GT installed at 44.75, liked the result.  Soon after was advised to adjust to 11.5, did, and experienced a few long drivers.  Stuck with the setting, even though trajectory was too high with too much spin.  Honestly, I kept thinking it was age related.

 

But a month back, I impulsively adjusted loft back to 10.5, added a bit more lead tape to sole, moved ball more forward, lowered tee and flattened my swing a tad, delivered the head sweet spot square on the ball, been seeing nearly zero dispersion, lower and straight consistent 245+ carry with a few more moments of brilliance 260+.  Last weekend my much younger and longer buddy was rather surprised that my ball was out near his all day, and I didn't miss a fairway.

 

For me, 10.5 loft and square sweet spot to the ball is working nicely.

Edited May 15 by Pepperturbo

[shavdog1968]

Pepperturbo....After reading of the almost cult status, about a month ago I bought a Rogue ST Max D....used.... I need to try that out...

[Ri_Redneck]

@shavdog1968, Your distance is in line with your SS/BS on good contact. I agree with those who say a fade should give about the same distance as a draw and be more controllable. I play a fade predominately and only use a draw if I absolutely have to (dogleg left). If the ball isn't curving more than 10 yds, you're good.

 

What helps you get max distance from a driver is BS, proper spin and launch for your BS. At 95 mph CHS, you will max out BS around 143 mph. Using the Flightscope Optimizer, your max carry distance would require a Launch Angle of around 15*. I have no idea what your current launch is, but that, IMHO, is what will help you the most as the majority of modern drivers are built to control spin.

 

BT

[shavdog1968]

Thanks.....good information here...it's early here in the golf season and I need to work on my swing mechanics...my current setup with the smoke 9 max will work as I have seen some very good drives this spring....however, my swing is not there yet....One thing I am having a problem with ....I have been using swing sticks for the past three yrs...the whole idea behind using them is to increase your swing speed to increase distance..I have a monitor and have hit 100 a very few times but at 75 yrs that ain't easy...in the mid 90's is more common...when you use the sticks you end up being pretty aggressive at the follow thru which really is counter to the way I swing on the course...so at times I find myself jumping at the ball and the results are poor as my swing is much more controlled..I think an over aggressive swing with a less than perfect swing just makes things worse....I like the sticks but for the time being I am going to workout with just my driver to smooth things out and see if that makes a difference....alot of things in golf are fixable if you spend the time....there is no free lunch...thanks for all the help....I have to be realistic...with a low 90's swing speed i am not hitting 300 yd drives...I think I saw a formula of something like 2.5 x your swing speed to come up with  an expected distance...In my case it would be around 230 yds...

Edited May 21 by shavdog1968