Low Descent Angle Question

[cptfeeezies]

This question is for the fitters and LM nerds. My descent angle is pretty low hanging around 41 degrees with a 6 iron. Typical launch is 15-16 degrees with 5500 spin. It apexes around 95 feet and with upper 80s clubhead speed. I’m using T100 with stock loft and KBS Tour V stiff and ProV1x.
 

With that low of descent angle, is the ball not retaining enough spin late in the flight? If that’s the case, how would you attempt to fix it? If not, what other variables could be an issue?

[Cwebb]

Keep it simple.  If your flight is too low, consider more loft, a higher spin ball,....and/or an iron design that is not hollow thin faced...with an Actual Vertical COG that is lower than what you're currently playing

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, cptfeeezies said:

This question is for the fitters and LM nerds. My descent angle is pretty low hanging around 41 degrees with a 6 iron. Typical launch is 15-16 degrees with 5500 spin. It apexes around 95 feet and with upper 80s clubhead speed. I’m using T100 with stock loft and KBS Tour V stiff and ProV1x.
 

With that low of descent angle, is the ball not retaining enough spin late in the flight? If that’s the case, how would you attempt to fix it? If not, what other variables could be an issue?

 

 

If you add 2.0 on static loft, your club speed will change spin with 436 rpm and descent will be 3.0 steeper.

Launch will go up with about 1.0

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, cptfeeezies said:

This question is for the fitters and LM nerds. My descent angle is pretty low hanging around 41 degrees with a 6 iron. Typical launch is 15-16 degrees with 5500 spin. It apexes around 95 feet and with upper 80s clubhead speed. I’m using T100 with stock loft and KBS Tour V stiff and ProV1x.

 

Are those LM numbers from hitting off of grass or a mat?

 

What is your on-course performance like with that club?  Do yo struggle to hold greens when using it on approaches?

 

Any decisions should always be made based on on-course performance, not some quest for someone else's concept of idealized LM numbers.

 

6 hours ago, cptfeeezies said:

With that low of descent angle, is the ball not retaining enough spin late in the flight? If that’s the case, how would you attempt to fix it? If not, what other variables could be an issue?

 

Ball speed, launch angle, and spin are what dictate the decent angle.  More ball speed can help but that's not really all that realistic with just an equipment change.  So that leaves increasing spin and/or launch angle to get a steeper decent.

 

Assuming good center face impact - that also means the ways to "fix" it is generally going to cost you distance.  Is that a price you're willing to pay?   And it also means that you may have to make changes to the whole set in order to keep consistent distance gaps in the set.

Edited May 22 by Stuart_G

[cptfeeezies]

8 hours ago, Cwebb said:

Keep it simple.  If your flight is too low, consider more loft, a higher spin ball,....and/or an iron design that is not hollow thin faced...with an Actual Vertical COG that is lower than what you're currently playing

I didn’t think I could get much higher spinning than a ProV1x but I should probably look into the ball. 
 

Is there a resource you would go to that describes the Vertical COG of the various iron models?

[cptfeeezies]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Are those LM numbers from hitting off of grass or a mat?

 

What is your on-course performance like with that club?  Do yo struggle to hold greens when using it on approaches?

 

Any decisions should always be made based on on-course performance, not some quest for someone else's concept of idealized LM numbers.

 

 

Ball speed, launch angle, and spin are what dictate the decent angle.  More ball speed can help but that's not really all that realistic with just an equipment change.  So that leaves increasing spin and/or launch angle to get a steeper decent.

 

Assuming good center face impact - that also means the ways to "fix" it is generally going to cost you distance.  Is that a price you're willing to pay?   And it also means that you may have to make changes to the whole set in order to keep consistent distance gaps in the set.

The numbers are off of a mat. I don’t currently have the means to take a LM on the course with me.
 

On the course, the ball typically takes a big first bounce before checking and a bit of roll out. Maybe about a four yard difference between pitch mark and resting when wind is negligible and no large changes in altitude between fwy and green. Mishits roll out quite a bit and that’s what I feel is the costly. It’s playable and I’m not chasing numbers purely to hit the ideal. But the mishit rollouts and big first bounces could be reduced and it would help my approach game. 
 

I got fit for wedges recently and was told that I was leaving distance on the table because my apex was too low for the spin rates I was getting. I was able to get more height by adding more vertical force heading into impact. That swing change is doable but it makes me think that the shaft isn’t loading properly unless I’m doing that. So would a shaft change be a benefit here?

[ShortGolfer]

You sound like Bryson saying he needs better equipment for his approach shots onto tricky greens.  Maybe you need investigate why you are mis-hitting the ball?

[Urb]

Are you hitting the middle of the club face?  Confirmed with impact tape or spray?

 

Mishits typically don't launch as high and have less ball speed.  Would need smash numbers to confirm.

 

Chrome Tour X is the next step up for spin beyond ProV1x.

 

Tbh, those descent numbers playable.  Anything lower might get weird.  

 

Do you carry a 5i?  What do those numbers look like?

[shaolingolfer]

I played Prov1X for several years and switch to Chrome Tour X last year, indoor it spins a few hundred more than Prov1 X with GC 3.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

The numbers are off of a mat.

 

It's very common for mats to reduce the spin compared to hitting off grass, in some cases significantly.  That means that the apex data (and other data the LM spits out) is suspect as well.

 

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

On the course, the ball typically takes a big first bounce before checking and a bit of roll out. Maybe about a four yard difference between pitch mark and resting when wind is negligible and no large changes in altitude between fwy and green.

 

The big bounce is a reflection of the hardness of the greens, not the spin or decent angle.  You're not going to be able to do much to change that - at least not without loosing distance.   Most people would kill for only 4 yards on hard greens with a 6i.

 

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

But the mishit rollouts and big first bounces could be reduced and it would help my approach game. 

 

Not the bounce.  Can't say about rollout without knowing your miss tendencies. But If the "miss" is a face impact location issue - don't get your hopes up about that.

 

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

I got fit for wedges recently and was told that I was leaving distance on the table because my apex was too low for the spin rates I was getting.

 

Apex really isn't that telling of a stat - at least not for equipment fitting  - and that's not taking into consideration that the numbers off of mats may not be accurate.    And if you want swing advice, stick to working with a pro.  Fitters aren't really all that reliable in that role.

 

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

I was able to get more height by adding more vertical force heading into impact. That swing change is doable but it makes me think that the shaft isn’t loading properly unless I’m doing that. So would a shaft change be a benefit here?

 

First of all, the concept of the shaft "loading properly" is mis-understood.   There is no "right" or "wrong" amount of loading - at least in any kind of objective context.   The shaft influences the dynamic loft delivered in 2 ways - one direct and one more indirect.

 

The direct influence is from the forward shaft bend that occurs at impact as a result of the shaft unloading.  This is generally not very large an influence and even only occurs if an individual has a late enough release.  Some people can use this to tweak launch and spin but IMO it's much more effective and reliable just to have the lofts tweaked.

 

The indirect influence is from how the feel of the shaft effects the swing itself.   This is common when it comes the weight feel but not as common with the stiffness feel.   If you are one of those individuals, the effects are not predictable and can be different for different individuals. The effect can be significant but also tends to negatively effect other aspects of the ball flight results - such as dispersion, accuracy and shot shape control.  

If you are not one of those individuals - the shaft wont matter all that much.  If you are one of those, you're better off picking the shaft for those other consequences - dispersion, accuracy, shot shape control,  - NOT launch and spin.   

 

To manage launch and spin, stick to adjusting launch and spin with the head model, loft or maybe even the ball.

 

Edited May 22 by Stuart_G

[Pnwpingi210]

6k spin with a 6 iron should be fine.  41 is a little low, but unless your playing tour speed greens all year I think your fine.  

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

The numbers are off of a mat. I don’t currently have the means to take a LM on the course with me.
 

On the course, the ball typically takes a big first bounce before checking and a bit of roll out. Maybe about a four yard difference between pitch mark and resting when wind is negligible and no large changes in altitude between fwy and green. Mishits roll out quite a bit and that’s what I feel is the costly. It’s playable and I’m not chasing numbers purely to hit the ideal. But the mishit rollouts and big first bounces could be reduced and it would help my approach game. 
 

I got fit for wedges recently and was told that I was leaving distance on the table because my apex was too low for the spin rates I was getting. I was able to get more height by adding more vertical force heading into impact. That swing change is doable but it makes me think that the shaft isn’t loading properly unless I’m doing that. So would a shaft change be a benefit here?

 

Your  numbers are probably good outside, doing the translation from mats to grass.  What you described outside with a good strike confirms that.   6 irons aren't going to drop and stop like a wedge, you described pretty normal 6 iron behavior with what the ball does when it hits a green that isn't soft from rain.   Mishits are what they are - if you're missing hitting to the point where you need to re-design your setup, the T100 is the wrong clubhead for you.  Find something more game improvement that will help retain ball speed and spin on bad strokes. 

 

 

[CTgamer]

1 hour ago, cptfeeezies said:

The numbers are off of a mat. I don’t currently have the means to take a LM on the course with me.
 

On the course, the ball typically takes a big first bounce before checking and a bit of roll out. Maybe about a four yard difference between pitch mark and resting when wind is negligible and no large changes in altitude between fwy and green. Mishits roll out quite a bit and that’s what I feel is the costly. It’s playable and I’m not chasing numbers purely to hit the ideal. But the mishit rollouts and big first bounces could be reduced and it would help my approach game. 
 

I got fit for wedges recently and was told that I was leaving distance on the table because my apex was too low for the spin rates I was getting. I was able to get more height by adding more vertical force heading into impact. That swing change is doable but it makes me think that the shaft isn’t loading properly unless I’m doing that. So would a shaft change be a benefit here?

Lots of good info already, but as an fyi, mats tend to tower spin and increase launch. So, on average, a player that launches it at 18* with 6,000rpm spin outside might see 19-20* with 5,000-5,500rpm spin inside. 
 

As some have said, your descent angle might be a little low. Spin looks fine, but launch is on the low side, particularly off a mat. Do you have a lot of forward shaft lean and/or delofting at impact? 
 

For context, tour pros launch a 6i in that range but their swing speed is upper 90s. I’d start with what in your swing and delivery is causing that launch angle

[hammergolf]

13 hours ago, cptfeeezies said:

This question is for the fitters and LM nerds. My descent angle is pretty low hanging around 41 degrees with a 6 iron. Typical launch is 15-16 degrees with 5500 spin. It apexes around 95 feet and with upper 80s clubhead speed. I’m using T100 with stock loft and KBS Tour V stiff and ProV1x.
 

With that low of descent angle, is the ball not retaining enough spin late in the flight? If that’s the case, how would you attempt to fix it? If not, what other variables could be an issue?

Loft is the most influential factor on decent angle and spin. 

[Jeff58]

Optimally, the difference between carry and total distance should be considered as a continuum across your set. Spin helps to create and retain height, but also produces drag. If your 6 iron has adequate height/spin/descent angle to achieve zero roll, you’re giving up considerable distance on everything with higher loft, as well as creating unnecessary height, wind exposure, and collapsing your distance gapping.

 

Your current ball choice is already pretty much the king of stops. 5k+ is a typical good number for a 6 iron, and that number is affected greatly by your swing speed. You can’t base your gapping and distance control on shots with poor impact. If you could, your good shots would be unplayable. Some iron models guard against distance loss from low impacts better than others. T100’s are not high in that area.

[cptfeeezies]

2 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

Optimally, the difference between carry and total distance should be considered as a continuum across your set. Spin helps to create and retain height, but also produces drag. If your 6 iron has adequate height/spin/descent angle to achieve zero roll, you’re giving up considerable distance on everything with higher loft, as well as creating unnecessary height, wind exposure, and collapsing your distance gapping.

 

Your current ball choice is already pretty much the king of stops. 5k+ is a typical good number for a 6 iron, and that number is affected greatly by your swing speed. You can’t base your gapping and distance control on shots with poor impact. If you could, your good shots would be unplayable. Some iron models guard against distance loss from low impacts better than others. T100’s are not high in that area.

The data from my fitting is from good shots, but I have been wondering if my just barely missed shots have a chance to get better. And if so, is that an equipment thing or better approached from the swing mechanics side of things.
 

From all the responses, it’s likely a small tweak to static loft and/or a conversation with a swing pro on playing with what I have or making a swing adjustments. 

[cptfeeezies]

2 hours ago, CTgamer said:

Lots of good info already, but as an fyi, mats tend to tower spin and increase launch. So, on average, a player that launches it at 18* with 6,000rpm spin outside might see 19-20* with 5,000-5,500rpm spin inside. 
 

As some have said, your descent angle might be a little low. Spin looks fine, but launch is on the low side, particularly off a mat. Do you have a lot of forward shaft lean and/or delofting at impact? 
 

For context, tour pros launch a 6i in that range but their swing speed is upper 90s. I’d start with what in your swing and delivery is causing that launch angle

I’ve got a decent amount forward shaft lean and typically a bit steeper on AoA (4-6 degrees. If I’m roughly 12% lower than your average on spin (5500 * 1.12 =6,160 , trackman avg is 6204 from 2023 data), with a very similar ball speed (127-128 vs 130 pro), similar launch angle (16 vs 14 pro) then an almost 22% (41 * 1.219 = 50) lower landing angle doesn’t seem to line up. Just trying to understand why those gaps are different. 
 

But like everyone is saying, static loft tweak and potential swing adjustment is a better direction to go in. 

[cptfeeezies]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

Your  numbers are probably good outside, doing the translation from mats to grass.  What you described outside with a good strike confirms that.   6 irons aren't going to drop and stop like a wedge, you described pretty normal 6 iron behavior with what the ball does when it hits a green that isn't soft from rain.   Mishits are what they are - if you're missing hitting to the point where you need to re-design your setup, the T100 is the wrong clubhead for you.  Find something more game improvement that will help retain ball speed and spin on bad strokes. 

 

 

Interestingly enough, my spin dropped markedly from the T100 to the T200 and Mizuno 245

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

38 minutes ago, cptfeeezies said:

I’ve got a decent amount forward shaft lean and typically a bit steeper on AoA (4-6 degrees. If I’m roughly 12% lower than your average on spin (5500 * 1.12 =6,160 , trackman avg is 6204 from 2023 data), with a very similar ball speed (127-128 vs 130 pro), similar launch angle (16 vs 14 pro) then an almost 22% (41 * 1.219 = 50) lower landing angle doesn’t seem to line up.

You mentioned high 80s for club speed at the start, but are getting near 130 ball speed with a 6-iron?  Versus a Pro's >95 club speed with it?   Something's not meshing together. 

 

See if you can add a touch of loft, as Howard recommended upthread, and see if things resolve?  Or try T150s instead for a touch higher launch in the same package?

 

Edit:  I would imagine (though haven't checked) the static loft is considerably different between 245/T200 and T100.

Edited May 22 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[cptfeeezies]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It's very common for mats to reduce the spin compared to hitting off grass, in some cases significantly.  That means that the apex data (and other data the LM spits out) is suspect as well.

 

 

The big bounce is a reflection of the hardness of the greens, not the spin or decent angle.  You're not going to be able to do much to change that - at least not without loosing distance.   Most people would kill for only 4 yards on hard greens with a 6i.

 

 

Not the bounce.  Can't say about rollout without knowing your miss tendencies. But If the "miss" is a face impact location issue - don't get your hopes up about that.

 

 

Apex really isn't that telling of a stat - at least not for equipment fitting  - and that's not taking into consideration that the numbers off of mats may not be accurate.    And if you want swing advice, stick to working with a pro.  Fitters aren't really all that reliable in that role.

 

 

First of all, the concept of the shaft "loading properly" is mis-understood.   There is no "right" or "wrong" amount of loading - at least in any kind of objective context.   The shaft influences the dynamic loft delivered in 2 ways - one direct and one more indirect.

 

The direct influence is from the forward shaft bend that occurs at impact as a result of the shaft unloading.  This is generally not very large an influence and even only occurs if an individual has a late enough release.  Some people can use this to tweak launch and spin but IMO it's much more effective and reliable just to have the lofts tweaked.

 

The indirect influence is from how the feel of the shaft effects the swing itself.   This is common when it comes the weight feel but not as common with the stiffness feel.   If you are one of those individuals, the effects are not predictable and can be different for different individuals. The effect can be significant but also tends to negatively effect other aspects of the ball flight results - such as dispersion, accuracy and shot shape control.  

If you are not one of those individuals - the shaft wont matter all that much.  If you are one of those, you're better off picking the shaft for those other consequences - dispersion, accuracy, shot shape control,  - NOT launch and spin.   

 

To manage launch and spin, stick to adjusting launch and spin with the head model, loft or maybe even the ball.

 

I appreciate all the information. 
 

I do play on hard greens so that’s likely a large part of it. I’ll probably test some static loft tweaks!

[CTgamer]

24 minutes ago, cptfeeezies said:

I’ve got a decent amount forward shaft lean and typically a bit steeper on AoA (4-6 degrees. If I’m roughly 12% lower than your average on spin (5500 * 1.12 =6,160 , trackman avg is 6204 from 2023 data), with a very similar ball speed (127-128 vs 130 pro), similar launch angle (16 vs 14 pro) then an almost 22% (41 * 1.219 = 50) lower landing angle doesn’t seem to line up. Just trying to understand why those gaps are different. 
 

But like everyone is saying, static loft tweak and potential swing adjustment is a better direction to go in. 

This is one of those situations where you need median values, not averages, because of skew in the data. Trackman’s data has always shown lower launch angles and higher spin rates than it seems like we see from top players (see all the “do pros really hit down on driver?” threads).
 

Long story short is the guys that are skewing launch down also have higher ball speed and spin, vs guys that are at or below the ball speed number need to have shallower AoA and lower spin values. You’re at the lower end of pro values for *both* ball speed and launch, and middle of the road on spin, so it makes sense why those effects compound on angle of descent.

 

At your existing launch conditions, you’d need more ball speed to get higher peak height and descent angle. But assuming you don’t just magically have another 5+ mph of ball speed laying around, you’d need:

1) higher spin (which will sacrifice distance to get a steeper descent angle), or

2) higher launch (which will add distance if spin stays the same)

 

Assuming you don’t want to sacrifice distance, and are already playing a spinny ball (V1x) and (relatively) spinny iron (T100), we need launch - that’s higher loft or less steep angle of attack, preferably with a better release condition so spin loft doesn’t also increase too much in the process. 
 

Lastly, flightscope’s trajectory optimizer might be helpful here - at least to allow you to see the sensitivity analysis around launch, spin, and ball speed as they impact peak height and descent angle 

 

https://trajectory.flightscope.com

 

 

[CTgamer]

43 minutes ago, cptfeeezies said:

Interestingly enough, my spin dropped markedly from the T100 to the T200 and Mizuno 245

As expected, given the 3* or more stronger lofts and a hollow bodied iron - the more the face flexes instead of the ball rolling up the face, the more launch goes up and spin goes down 

 

Also, as someone above posted, upper 80s swing speed and upper 120s ball speed doesn’t compute unless you’re playing at really high elevation or your 6i is pretty strong loft (like players distance iron, P790 strong).
 

If the latter, than 41* descent isn’t terrible, because your 6i is really a 4-5i

Edited May 22 by CTgamer

[cptfeeezies]

14 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

You mentioned high 80s for club speed at the start, but are getting near 130 ball speed with a 6-iron?  Versus a Pro's >95 club speed with it?   Something's not meshing together. 

 

See if you can add a touch of loft, as Howard recommended upthread, and see if things resolve?  Or try T150s instead for a touch higher launch in the same package?

My smash factor is a little higher than the Trackman tour average (1.46 vs 1.39 pro). My smash factor has been consistent across multiple launch monitors so while it’s odd being higher than a pro, it seems accurate. 

[CTgamer]

3 minutes ago, cptfeeezies said:

My smash factor is a little higher than the Trackman tour average (1.46 vs 1.39 pro). My smash factor has been consistent across multiple launch monitors so while it’s odd being higher than a pro, it seems accurate. 

Smash that high implies distance iron - basically, lower delivered loft (through lower actual loft or steeper aoa) and more face flex increase the maximum possible smash. It’s why a (hollow bodied, 10*) driver has a max smash of 1.5 while a (solid one piece, 30*) 6i has a max smash of ~1.37.  
 

Your steep aoa is probably causing some of the higher smash factor, but that alone couldn’t get to 1.46 with 6i

[cptfeeezies]

52 minutes ago, CTgamer said:

As expected, given the 3* or more stronger lofts and a hollow bodied iron - the more the face flexes instead of the ball rolling up the face, the more launch goes up and spin goes down 

 

Also, as someone above posted, upper 80s swing speed and upper 120s ball speed doesn’t compute unless you’re playing at really high elevation or your 6i is pretty strong loft (like players distance iron, P790 strong).
 

If the latter, than 41* descent isn’t terrible, because your 6i is really a 4-5i

My T100 6i is at 30 degrees. And does 5000 feet count as really high elevation?

 

It’s sounding like the ball speeds on the Trackman’s I’ve used should be taken with a grain of salt. 

[CTgamer]

2 minutes ago, cptfeeezies said:

My T100 6i is at 30 degrees. And does 5000 feet count as really high elevation?

 

It’s sounding like the ball speeds on the Trackman’s I’ve used should be taken with a grain of salt. 

Re: elevation, very much so! 
 

Per flightscope, the same launch conditions (127 ball speed, 15* launch, 5500 spin) will apex at ~92 feet at sea level and ~85 feet at 5,000 feet elevation. 
 

Thinner air means spin is less effective at creating height (less drag) - that’s part of why the ball goes further, and is part of why your ball speed, and thus smash, is “artificially” higher than your 30* T100 6i would suggest. 

 

Optimal stopping power at elevation relies much more on height than spin (whereas both are viable the closer you get to sea level) 

 

 

[cptfeeezies]

23 minutes ago, CTgamer said:

Re: elevation, very much so! 
 

Per flightscope, the same launch conditions (127 ball speed, 15* launch, 5500 spin) will apex at ~92 feet at sea level and ~85 feet at 5,000 feet elevation. 
 

Thinner air means spin is less effective at creating height (less drag) - that’s part of why the ball goes further, and is part of why your ball speed, and thus smash, is “artificially” higher than your 30* T100 6i would suggest. 

 

Optimal stopping power at elevation relies much more on height than spin (whereas both are viable the closer you get to sea level) 

 

 

Ahhh, it’s coming together for me now. Thanks for all the info!

[Pnwpingi210]

8 minutes ago, cptfeeezies said:

Ahhh, it’s coming together for me now. Thanks for all the info!

Yup.  Looking at average trackman data is not really a good target point for optimizing.  
 

You have to ask yourself, do you struggle to hold greens with your 6 iron on well struck shots?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 5/22/2025 at 3:27 PM, cptfeeezies said:

My T100 6i is at 30 degrees. And does 5000 feet count as really high elevation?

 

It’s sounding like the ball speeds on the Trackman’s I’ve used should be taken with a grain of salt. 

That's about my i210's loft.  1.46 smash is nuts with a mid iron.  That's basically my 5 or 3-wood, and I murder that thing.   Normally, I'd say with that smash, you'd have no spin, but you've 5500 with that 6.  I'm stumped.

 

5,000 feet is fairly high, FWIW.  The more I read here and other places, about launch monitor readings, the more I start wondering if we need to slap some hefty error bars around the data they produce?

Edited May 23 by Jayjay_theweim_guy