Bad Buyer Experience

[LafertyDaniel]

This is the first dispute I’ve ever head on GolfWRX in over 10 years of activity, but posting here for transparency: I sold a Qi35 LS head to @James Ng on May 16th for $380 (last Saturday). I think I'm in the right, but looking to make sure I'm not missing anything.

 

TL;DR - I handed the head over to UPS the next business day, provided James the tracking details and he is refusing delivery because he failed to communicate he needed it by a certain date.

 

He couldn’t find my PayPal despite providing him images of my account. Weird, but no big deal - I sent the request and he paid promptly for goods and services. 
 

I told him I would ship it Monday morning My friend had temporary possession of the head (he was testing it to see if he was interested) so I requested he ship it directly to James. My friend delivered to the store on Monday evening, at which point  I provided tracking details on Monday evening and an image of the UPS physical receipt on Tuesday morning. 

 

I acknowledge that I set an expectation for Monday morning, and I failed to deliver on that expectation (provided Monday evening). I apologized for this and tried to make it right. EDIT: I also acknowledge that if my friend was going to ship on my behalf, that I should have disclosed this during the sale or prior to shipping. Both of these are my responsibility and accept my fault in them.
 

Unfortunately, by the time the head was dropped off at UPS, it was past the daily ship time. UPS tracking updated Tuesday evening. This has happened to me before (UPS taking 12-24 hours for shipping info to update), so I figured it was a non issue, and communicated with James that I would update him as soon as I saw the tracking go live.. James changed the delivery to a UPS store instead of his address without telling me. 
 

I requested he confirm that he made this change (he didn’t until the next weekend), and informed him that I did not have the Qi35 headcover and instead provided a Qi10 headcover instead. Despite it not being part of the deal, I offered him $15 as a goodwill gesture since it seemed that was disappointing to him. You can see his response (or lackthereof). 
 

Fast forward to Friday: James emails me and says this is ridiculous, that I broke my promise and that he will would refuse the package. 
 

I explain to him, despite providing him all of our correspondence and tracking details that: 

 

a) I made no guarantee of delivery time

b) I made no guarantee of the headcover (but offered to make it right) and 

c) he delayed this shipment further by sending to a UPS store, which was out of my control. 
d) sometimes UPS takes time to have tracking info updated in their system (it’s happened to me as a buyer here before). 
 

After probing, came to find out he had a member tournament this weekend he wanted the head for on Sunday (May 25th). I can understand not getting gear before something you wanted to use it for, but if you don’t tell me, I can’t help you. 

To top it off, he said he would accept it after attempting to extort $40 from me for the shipping costs because it was “late”, despite the fact there was no shipping guarantee for UPS ground. 
 

Now, he is going to refuse the package and I will be out of shipping costs both ways plus the seller fee. Frankly, I’ll eat this cost as I have no interest in providing anything to James at this point. I will refund him as soon as I receive the head, in the event he’s trying to scam me.  If James refuses the head, I will refund once UPS indicates it's on it's way back home. If he accepts and returns, I will wait until receipt of the head.
 

He communicated poorly throughout the experience, and failed to use a modicum of logic, reason or sensibility. He set both of us up for failure by not communicating needs. If he needed it by Friday, he should have told me and we could have arranged for expedited shipping.
 

He doesn’t embody the type of buyers and sellers I’ve dealt with consistently here, nor how I hold myself. EDIT: It's been made clear to me that I've made my own mistakes in this transaction and acknowledge my poor communication earlier in the transaction. I accept my responsibility for that and commit to doing better in the interests of of the forum. I would appreciate if James admitted his fault for not communicating his delivery expectations. 
 

Posting our full correspondence for transparency. 

Golfwrx Correspondence.pdf Taylormade Correspondence.pdf

Edited May 27 by LafertyDaniel
Acknowledging responsibility of shipping party; next steps

[DaBirdiMaster]

6 minutes ago, LafertyDaniel said:

This is the first dispute I’ve ever head on GolfWRX in over 10 years of activity, but posting here for transparency: I sold a Qi35 LS head to @James Ng on May 16th for $380 (last Saturday). I think I'm in the right, but looking to make sure I'm not missing anything.

 

TL;DR - I handed the head over to UPS the next business day, provided James the tracking details and he is refusing delivery because he failed to communicate he needed it by a certain date.

 

He couldn’t find my PayPal despite providing him images of my account. Weird, but no big deal - I sent the request and he paid promptly for goods and services. 
 

I told him I would ship it Monday morning My friend had temporary possession of the head (he was testing it to see if he was interested) so I requested he ship it directly to James. My friend delivered to the store on Monday evening, at which point  I provided tracking details on Monday evening and an image of the UPS physical receipt on Tuesday morning. 

 

I acknowledge that I set an expectation for Monday morning, and I failed to deliver on that expectation (provided Monday evening). I apologized for this and tried to make it right.
 

Unfortunately, by the time the head was dropped off at UPS, it was past the daily ship time. UPS tracking updated Tuesday evening. This has happened to me before (UPS taking 12-24 hours for shipping info to update), so I figured it was a non issue, and communicated with James that I would update him as soon as I saw the tracking go live.. James changed the delivery to a UPS store instead of his address without telling me. 
 

I requested he confirm that he made this change (he didn’t until the next weekend), and informed him that I did not have the Qi35 headcover and instead provided a Qi10 headcover instead. Despite it not being part of the deal, I offered him $15 as a goodwill gesture since it seemed that was disappointing to him. You can see his response (or lackthereof). 
 

Fast forward to Friday: James emails me and says this is ridiculous, that I broke my promise and that he will would refuse the package. 
 

I explain to him, despite providing him all of our correspondence and tracking details that: 

 

a) I made no guarantee of delivery time

b) I made no guarantee of the headcover (but offered to make it right) and 

c) he delayed this shipment further by sending to a UPS store, which was out of my control. 
d) sometimes UPS takes time to have tracking info updated in their system (it’s happened to me as a buyer here before). 
 

After probing, came to find out he had a member tournament this weekend he wanted the head for on Sunday (May 25th). I can understand not getting gear before something you wanted to use it for, but if you don’t tell me, I can’t help you. 

To top it off, he said he would accept it after attempting to extort $40 from me for the shipping costs because it was “late”, despite the fact there was no shipping guarantee for UPS ground. 
 

Now, he is going to refuse the package and I will be out of shipping costs both ways plus the seller fee. Frankly, I’ll eat this cost as I have no interest in providing anything to James at this point. I will refund him as soon as I receive the head, in the event he’s trying to scam me. 
 

He communicated poorly throughout the experience, and failed to use a modicum of logic, reason or sensibility. He set both of us up for failure by not communicating needs. If he needed it by Friday, he should have told me and we could have arranged for expedited shipping.
 

He doesn’t embody the type of buyers and sellers I’ve dealt with consistently here, nor how I hold myself. 
 

Posting our full correspondence for transparency. Sellers, beware of James.

Golfwrx Correspondence.pdf 2.14 MB · 0 downloads Taylormade Correspondence.pdf 1.36 MB · 0 downloads

Sorry to hear about this, I wonder what he has to say for himself...

[dcmidnight]

TL;DR - I handed the head over to UPS the next business day, provided James the tracking details and he is refusing delivery because he failed to communicate he needed it by a certain date.

 

Huh. So just to be clear, he told you he needed it by a member tournament on the 25th and he was refusing your shipment - and in addition trying to get you to pay him a bunch of extra money?

 

Bad luck for him I guess - because here's why that excuse is a load of crap.

 

James DMd me last night asking if I would sell my LS 10.5* head for $360 shipped.

 

So clearly it was not a time need since he's offering to buy my head on Monday night May 26th.

Edited May 27 by dcmidnight

[jblough99]

There are a lot of things your misunderstanding about the shipping process with UPS.

 

The UPS store is NOT UPS.  They are a third party company with no affiliation to UPS other than the naming.  Dropping a package with them is not putting that package in UPS’s possession.  That only occurs when UPS picks up the package and scans it into their system.  UPS has a daily pickup at the UPS store at a set time, if you miss that cut off, your package will sit at the UPS store until the next days pickup.  There is no delay with UPS tracking, it happens instantly and in real time, each scan shows up in the tracking as it happens.  See below.
 

The buyer requesting to have the package delivered to an access point will not delay or slow delivery time.  The package will be delivered to the access point on the same day it would have been delivered to the buyers house, but now it will be up to him to pick it up.  This is a non issue.

 

All that being said, you were selling something you didn’t have in your possession, letting your friend “test” which had the potential to put the head in lesser condition than posted in your BST listing, then having said friend ship the head for you before you gave it a final inspection prior to it leaving your possession.  All serious issues in my eyes.

 

You also contradict yourself in your post saying “You” dropped it off with UPS on Monday, but then later state your friend dropped it off Monday evening after the cut off time.

 

I get your trying to get out ahead of this before the buyer has a chance to start his own thread but you better have your ducks in a row, which from where I stand you don’t.

 

 

[dcmidnight]

20 minutes ago, jblough99 said:

 get your trying to get out ahead of this before the buyer has a chance to start his own thread but you better have your ducks in a row, which from where I stand you don’t.

 

The shipping date/time doesn't...necessarily...bother me at this point - it seems like it was only after the fact that they dickered over when it was supposed to be shipped.

 

The buyer stated - after the fact - that he needed it by a certain day. Then asked the seller to give him $40 to make things right and in that case he would accept the package. And if not - that was a problem.

 

Then - after all this - he turns around last night and tries to buy the *exact same club* from me?

 

Doesn't track.

Edited May 27 by dcmidnight

[jblough99]

10 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

The shipping date/time doesn't...necessarily...bother me at this point - it seems like it was only after the fact that they dickered over when it was supposed to be shipped.

 

The buyer stated - after the fact - that he needed it by a certain day. Then asked the seller to give him $40 to make things right and in that case he would accept the package. And if not - that was a problem.

 

Then - after all this - he turns around last night and tries to buy the *exact same club* from me?

 

Doesn't track.

 

Not disputing at all that the buyer is being shady as well.  Just trying to clarify the shipping process and also that the seller made some serious mistakes despite his portrayal of the events.

 

As far as I’m concerned, let the buyer refuse, seller is out the shipping costs but gets the head back, seller paid a small fee for his questionable decisions, hopefully lesson learned.

[wsupjs]

1 hour ago, jblough99 said:

All that being said, you were selling something you didn’t have in your possession, letting your friend “test” which had the potential to put the head in lesser condition than posted in your BST listing, then having said friend ship the head for you before you gave it a final inspection prior to it leaving your possession.  All serious issues in my eyes.

 

Couldn't agree more. While the buyer might be a bit harsh in his timeline, especially since according to OP there wasn't any communication about a deadline (although even with shipping out Tuesday, it still should've arrived by Saturday for his Sunday event) these actions by the seller are a huge red flag.

 

Why would you list something that's not in your possession? Is that even allowed in BST? Why wouldn't you make the headcover status clear in the ad, especially on such a new club?

 

There are clearly faults on both sides in this deal. 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

17 minutes ago, wsupjs said:

There are clearly faults on both sides in this deal. 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

Seems like this was a mutually bad experience so there is no in the right or in the wrong.

[Red4282]

Buyer doesnt seem great to work with but ill be honest it irks me you would list something not in your physical possession and then discover after the fact you cant find the headcover.

[Nixhex524]

Did you disclose that your friend had it and would be shipping it?  If I am the buyer in that case, I am backing out immediately but we are all different.  If the buyer knew that and stayed in, then he should know it could get murky having another person involved.  Either way, this sounds bad on both ends, definitely lack of communication from the buyer it seems, but as the seller, you need to do better than this and fully disclose everything before receiving payment.  We will also have to hear what the buyer has to say....

[bcflyguy1]

Two more for the ever expanding blocked list!

[Pnwpingi210]

Yeah, I thought if in item is listed it’s generally out of play/not being hit or demod since usage potentially changes the condition, even if it’s your buddy and the only hit 10 ball indoors.

 

maybe I’m off base here, but that the assumption

[straightshot7]

Once I post photos of a club, it’s not being used anymore. That’s sketchy. 
 

but if no guarantee of delivery date was given, buyer can’t refuse package based on delivery date either.

[LafertyDaniel]

3 hours ago, jblough99 said:

UPS has a daily pickup at the UPS store at a set time, if you miss that cut off, your package will sit at the UPS store until the next days pickup.

This is what I was trying to explain to the buyer. I provided the physical receipt to him, UPS didn't scan it in to their system until the shipment went out. 

 

3 hours ago, jblough99 said:

All that being said, you were selling something you didn’t have in your possession, letting your friend “test” which had the potential to put the head in lesser condition than posted in your BST listing, then having said friend ship the head for you before you gave it a final inspection prior to it leaving your possession.  All serious issues in my eyes.

I can appreciate this perspective and appreciate you pointing it out. He wasn't in the middle of testing - the photos were taken after he had used it (I just had not collected the head from him). I can take photos when I receive the head to confirm this and post them here to verify my claim.

 

3 hours ago, jblough99 said:

You also contradict yourself in your post saying “You” dropped it off with UPS on Monday, but then later state your friend dropped it off Monday evening after the cut off time.

To be clear, my friend dropped it off. I was pretty hot writing this, as you may imagine. Thanks for calling me on it.

 

My understanding of the BST rules indicate you cannot sell on behalf of another person, but there's no stipulation that it has to be in your possession at the time of sale. It's the same as if my partner shipped my package on my behalf.

[LafertyDaniel]

1 hour ago, wsupjs said:

 

Couldn't agree more. While the buyer might be a bit harsh in his timeline, especially since according to OP there wasn't any communication about a deadline (although even with shipping out Tuesday, it still should've arrived by Saturday for his Sunday event) these actions by the seller are a huge red flag.

 

Why would you list something that's not in your possession? Is that even allowed in BST? Why wouldn't you make the headcover status clear in the ad, especially on such a new club?

 

There are clearly faults on both sides in this deal. 

 

My opinion on this is that if it isn't listed on the add (it was not), then you should not expect it (no matter the state of the head). The buyer didn't request it, I brought it to his attention and tried to make it right.

 

In hindsight I should have been more clear in the add up front, but live and learn here.

[LafertyDaniel]

43 minutes ago, Nixhex524 said:

Did you disclose that your friend had it and would be shipping it?  If I am the buyer in that case, I am backing out immediately but we are all different.  If the buyer knew that and stayed in, then he should know it could get murky having another person involved.  Either way, this sounds bad on both ends, definitely lack of communication from the buyer it seems, but as the seller, you need to do better than this and fully disclose everything before receiving payment.  We will also have to hear what the buyer has to say....

I don't disagree at all - I figured timing would not be an issue (it shipped from UPS within 2 business days and was received in 1 business day) so it only came up when the buyer surfaced their timing issue.

 

I should have surfaced that I would not be the one shipping it at the time of sale, and will do better in the future. This is the kind of feedback I need and appreciate it.

[LafertyDaniel]

20 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

Once I post photos of a club, it’s not being used anymore. That’s sketchy. 
 

but if no guarantee of delivery date was given, buyer can’t refuse package based on delivery date either.

The club was not being used anymore, explained above.

[LPSISCO]

I was originally concerned with the “I didn’t ship it because my friend was testing it” statement as well; one wrong swing and the club isn’t in the same condition as the pictures. But this statement is rather confusing:

 

“I can appreciate this perspective and appreciate you pointing it out. He wasn't in the middle of testing - the photos were taken after he had used it (I just had not collected the head from him). I can take photos when I receive the head toconfirm this and post them here to verify my claim.”

 

I don’t understand. You didn’t have the head because your friend had it for testing. He shipped the head because you didn’t have it. But you somehow took pictures after he had finished testing it? Did you go to his house, take the pictures, and leave it there? Or did he take the pictures you used? 

Edited May 27 by LPSISCO

[LafertyDaniel]

10 minutes ago, LPSISCO said:

I don’t understand. You didn’t have the head because your friend had it for testing. He shipped the head because you didn’t have it. But you somehow took pictures after he had finished testing it? Did you go to his house, take the pictures, and leave it there? Or did he take the pictures you used? 

 

He tested, I asked him to take photos when he said he did not want it then sent those photos to me. It's been sitting at his house ever since as I haven't been around to pick it up yet. 

 

If your concern is about the condition, I mentioned I will post photos as soon as I receive the head to confirm it is in exactly the same state as the photos (and will link the original photos that are still in the original BST posting).

 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, LafertyDaniel said:

 

He tested, I asked him to take photos when he said he did not want it then sent those photos to me. It's been sitting at his house ever since as I haven't been around to pick it up yet. 

 

If your concern is about the condition, I mentioned I will post photos as soon as I receive the head to confirm it is in exactly the same state as the photos (and will link the original photos that are still in the original BST posting).

 

I understand what your saying.

 

I think what most are saying is that you should disclose all that to the buyer in your add, or at a minimum prior to accepting payment.  

[LafertyDaniel]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

I think what most are saying is that you should disclose all that to the buyer in your add, or at a minimum prior to accepting payment.  

 

Appreciate this, and I completely agree as I mentioned above. This part was a total miss by me, which is part of the reason I posted here (to make sure I'm not blinded by my own perspective). 

 

Assuming I keep my selling privileges, it won't happen again. 

[ilikegolf26]

1 hour ago, bcflyguy1 said:

Two more for the ever expanding blocked list!

^This. Close the thread up. 

[TyNiles]

I just never understand how these situations get to this point. Having a friend taking pics of heads, then shipping it out on your behalf, then sending tracking info that was mistyped - it just shouldn't be that at all. I wouldn't list something until it is back in my possession.

Buy a box (or repurpose an Amazon one), use Pirate Ship, copy/paste the tracking number to the buyer as well as the label itself, and drop it off at UPS. This entire process takes me 10 minutes MAX. Communication from him was poor, but you did fail to deliver on the drop off expectation - over promise and under deliver. You both can do better here - but IMO, the buyer has a right to be annoyed at how this went down. Also, he probably changed delivery to the UPS store since *sometimes* that makes delivery a day quicker. 

Edited May 27 by TyNiles
Typo

[LafertyDaniel]

20 minutes ago, TyNiles said:

I just never understand how these situations get to this point. Having a friend taking pics of heads, then shipping it out on your behalf, then sending tracking info that was mistyped - it just shouldn't be that at all. I wouldn't list something until it is back in my possession.

Buy a box (or repurpose an Amazon one), use Pirate Ship, copy/paste the tracking number to the buyer as well as the label itself, and drop it off at UPS. This entire process takes me 10 minutes MAX. Communication from him was poor, but you did fail to deliver on the drop off expectation - over promise and under deliver. You both can do better here - but IMO, the seller has a right to be annoyed at how this went down. Also, he probably changed delivery to the UPS store since *sometimes* that makes delivery a day quicker. 

 

I don't disagree. I acknowledged my failure in my correspondence to him as well as in the post, stayed in constant communication with the buyer and tried to make it right. No matter what I do he of course has every right to be annoyed by this.

 

I've had plenty of purchases on GolfWRX not get shipped at the time the seller told me, and not once have I had a problem with it because I understand we are regular people and things happen. Maybe I'm an outlier here in my expectations.

 

Whatever my experience is, I won't make the mistake of ever setting a time and date here without being absolutely certain it will be met. I'll also confirm what type of shipping the need and agree who will bear the expedited fee.

 

To refuse shipment because he didn't communicate he needed the head by Friday is not my fault, which is my main issue here.

Edited May 27 by LafertyDaniel
typo

[TyNiles]

2 minutes ago, LafertyDaniel said:

To refuse shipment because he didn't communicate he needed the head by Friday is not my fault, which is my main issue here.

100% agree. 

[MickeyTankBank]

33 minutes ago, LafertyDaniel said:

To refuse shipment because he didn't communicate he needed the head by Friday is not my fault, which is my main issue here.

 

It's not the only issue though. You had your own issues here.

 

Take it back, eat the shipping cost, and move on with your life. You're not without fault here with some poor communication of your own.

[LafertyDaniel]

1 minute ago, MickeyTankBank said:

Take it back, eat the shipping cost, and move on with your life. You're not without fault here with some poor communication of your own.

 

That's exactly what I'm doing. I've asked for feedback, responded where I was in the wrong and acknowledged it, and I agreed to take the head back + eat the cost of shipping (in the original post).

 

My learnings, summarized from the above posts:

• Disclose any and all details related to the same (even if I consider them to be insignificant, they may not be to the buyer)
• Avoid having anyone ship on my behalf, but if I must, clearly disclose the situation prior to sale or payment and get agreement from buyer (or don't transact)
• Do not over promise and under deliver, even by a few hours. Only state what I can 100% accomplish prior to accepting payment to the best of my ability

 

 

[Putter Addict]

13 minutes ago, MickeyTankBank said:

 

It's not the only issue though. You had your own issues here.

 

Take it back, eat the shipping cost, and move on with your life. You're not without fault here with some poor communication of your own.

I agree with this except for the buyer did not dispute the transaction because of photos, etc... the issue in question was directly related to the timeframe in shipping. Would also be curious as to why the buyer reached out to another member to buy the same driver. 

 

The seller made mistakes yes, but if the buyer's issue was with the timeline and buyer did not disclose the timeline up front then the photos or possession of the club have no bearing in the refund. 

 

Would love to hear the buyer's side of this story. 

[MickeyTankBank]

8 minutes ago, Putter Addict said:

I agree with this except for the buyer did not dispute the transaction because of photos, etc... the issue in question was directly related to the timeframe in shipping. Would also be curious as to why the buyer reached out to another member to buy the same driver. 

 

The seller made mistakes yes, but if the buyer's issue was with the timeline and buyer did not disclose the timeline up front then the photos or possession of the club have no bearing in the refund. 

 

Would love to hear the buyer's side of this story. 

 

The seller also said it would be shipped out on Monday morning but failed to disclose that they didn't have the head and it was going to be shipped by a friend. Don't say you'll do something when it's out of your control.

 

 

Edited May 27 by MickeyTankBank