I just want to rant for a minute about...

[iNeedMoreGolf]

How certain golf courses think its ok the have augusta like green speeds but then pin placement to where not prime tiger woods can even hole one unless he put the aproach shot to one foot. Im talkin hole is ln the middle of a upside down bowl that the ball can roll away any which way. Im talking you tap the ball and its gone no matter what. Speciailly down hill. Im talking i got 15 yards to the pin im just off the green i hit it three yards onto the green and it rolls to 3 feet from the hole. Im talkin twisty turny fast greens with whats worse really bad hole placement. Im talkin good shots dont even matter sucks the life out of the round. Im talkin clown putt putt golf but worse. Anyone else expiernce this? Im dieng to know what the stimp was and more importantly who is placeing these hole locations. Just fustrating. I played tpc scottsdale once and the greens were fast but fair and hole locations perfect. Not easy not impossible. 

[jordan2240]

We have a local public course that probably gets the least amount of play because of the typically speedy greens and pin placements. I've spoken with several guys who refuse to play it.  It's where I go when I think I've finally learned how to play golf, only to find out I was wrong - again.  It's a pretty course though, and on the plus side, it's inexpensive and easy to get a tee time.

[SnowbirdTom]

Our course has several of them holes too.  Greens cut and rolled, pin placement on a slope that guarantees the ball will come back to your feet or past even just getting to the hole. Downhill? Fuggitaboutit with a strike that allows you to read the ball logo as it limps down the slope picking up speed. Off the green a few yards at best.  Had a few times where the ball literally died on the lip and rolled 20-30 feet backwards.  Frustrating, isn't it?

 

Pace of play suffers badly due to it. 

[caniac6]

Our greens were rebuilt last year, and have several with some severe slopes. If you are above the hole, there is no chance to get it close unless you make it. If on the bottom level, and pin on top, you have to hit a very good putt to get it close. Our greens are new, so they a protecting them a bit, and are not too fast. When they get up to speed, they are going to be too fast to be fun. Also, being new, they are hard as rocks.

Edited May 27 by caniac6

[DaveGoodrich]

Yep, the faster/slopier the the greens, the fewer "good" pin positions, and the greater the need for the crews to understand how golf is actually played.  I once complained at the pro shop after a round that the holes were cut in impossible locations, and their response was, essentially, "the crews don't really play golf, so don't understand the implications of pin placement."  I said "you don't train them?" but the guy at the desk just said, "I don't know - not my job."   USGA guidelines regarding pin placements are there for all to read and understand, but the courses are probably more concerned with wearing out those "good" locations, so they move them around too much given the green slopes/speed.   So when this kind of thing is occurring, we probably need to talk to the head pro to deal with it. 

 

[tatertot]

Lots of courses take pride in it. If you complain, the answer is "keep the ball below the hole". Which is tough when you have a green 5 yards (or less) off the front fringe.

[596]

It's a big ego thing for some clubs to have the "fastest" greens.  Even when it destroys the actual nature of the green.  Greens with lots of slope should be slower for more pin placements and faster rounds. If you want fast, have flatter greens.  Sloped and fast don't mix well for 99% of all golfers.  

 

Most maintenance guys don't play golf.  They have no idea want happens when placing a pin on a slope.  I set pins for many many years and still do for our biggest 3 day tourney of the year.  I've called the shop and requested some pins be moved before.  They believe me when I say it's in a stupid spot.  And our greens roll a solid 8 downhill! 😂 

[Shallowface]

13 minutes ago, DaveGoodrich said:

Yep, the faster/slopier the the greens, the fewer "good" pin positions, and the greater the need for the crews to understand how golf is actually played.  I once complained at the pro shop after a round that the holes were cut in impossible locations, and their response was, essentially, "the crews don't really play golf, so don't understand the implications of pin placement."  I said "you don't train them?" but the guy at the desk just said, "I don't know - not my job."   USGA guidelines regarding pin placements are there for all to read and understand, but the courses are probably more concerned with wearing out those "good" locations, so they move them around too much given the green slopes/speed.   So when this kind of thing is occurring, we probably need to talk to the head pro to deal with it. 

 

Often times, especially at public courses, the head pro and the head super are on the same level.

 

A club pro friend of mine, now retired, said he and the super would meet with the parks director every other week.  The argument was the same every time.  The super's main concern was that the course looked lush from the surrounding roads, so he poured the water to it.  Then, when there was just a bit of rain, play was confined to "cart path only" and 50 percent of the players opted not to play.  But since they were on the same level, the super was never ordered to do anything different, even though the harm to revenue was significant.

 

The more undulating the greens, the slower they must be.  But the GCSAA member doesn't want his buddies ragging him over his Stimp rating, so he mows them down.  No different than pin placements that are unreasonable and rough of "Easter Egg Hunt" variety, all of which leads to six hour rounds.  It's all about peer pressure with those guys.  They couldn't care less about the retail aspect.    

 

You have to hand it to the GCSAA, essentially the greenkeepers union.  They have elevated themselves far above where they used to be.  But in many cases they have become a problem and somehow they must be brought to heel.

 

 

[StoutKing]

In general green speeds are too fast today, especially for classic courses that were designed for much slower.

[jda]

For some reason, members and clubs wear their ridiculous green speed as a badge of honor.  They don't seem to understand that if this is what you brag about with your club, then the rest of the course sucks.  This is a red flag to those that know.  A local course lost a lot of members and almost went into bankruptcy because of the member pride in their stupid fast greens... and they would shave them even shorter for their big event that no guests liked.

 

Some false fronts, huge ridges and stuff are great, IMO.  However, the pins need to be in places where good skill can still get you a 2 putt without sinking a 30 footer.  Punish a bad putt, but a good one needs to be within 3 feet.

 

Drove a mower at a course for a jot second in HS.  The dude who cut the pins would place them depending on how good of a time that he had the night before... and brag about it.  Seriously.  Most of the folks who cut nasty pins know what they are doing.

[Gdane]

OP posted from the parking lot at Makray Memorial Golf Club.

[caniac6]

I played at Sedgefield not too long after the tournament, and the greens were so fast it was difficult to keep a downhill putt on the green. The Donald Ross greens have a lot of false fronts, and on that particular day it seemed to have a lot of front pins. You had to go for the middle, and several of my second putts followed a chip.

 

 

[Tyrus Webb]

7 hours ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

ln the middle of a upside down bowl

 

Or "dome," if you're into the whole brevity thing.

[me05501]

3 hours ago, tatertot said:

Lots of courses take pride in it. If you complain, the answer is "keep the ball below the hole". Which is tough when you have a green 5 yards (or less) off the front fringe.

 

 

Yeah it's also useless advice when you can rarely see the slopes from where you're hitting your approach shot.  

[SnowbirdTom]

Home course had decided we also need ankle plus deep and wet rough now. Had the hosel get grabbed a few times today, followed by a huge chunk of sod flying left.

[Cbfodalo]

Well for me I would rather have fast difficult greens then crazy thick rough. If I had to choose. Unfortunately the best deal in town for me has impossible thick rough and pretty difficult greens. Its all part if the struggle. Embrace it. 

[Springsteennut]

There is one in the Chicago area called Makray and fast greens with difficult pin placements is their thing. It’s fun once or twice a year but no way I’d play it more than that. It would not be fun to deal with it all the time.

[ChaosTheory]

5 hours ago, Tyrus Webb said:

 

Or "dome," if you're into the whole brevity thing.

Or if you are into brevity.

 

🙃

[iNeedMoreGolf]

11 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

We have a local public course that probably gets the least amount of play because of the typically speedy greens and pin placements. I've spoken with several guys who refuse to play it.  It's where I go when I think I've finally learned how to play golf, only to find out I was wrong - again.  It's a pretty course though, and on the plus side, it's inexpensive and easy to get a tee time.

Yeah this course is nice too but what is the point if im on for birdie but end up double or triple because the slope speed and pin placement is horrendous. Speed is fine. Glass floor with the pin on a bowl is not lol no pro would like that.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

9 hours ago, SnowbirdTom said:

Home course had decided we also need ankle plus deep and wet rough now. Had the hosel get grabbed a few times today, followed by a huge chunk of sod flying left.

This course im talking about also had thick rough. Am i in the us open?? Lol

[Roody]

I call it defensive putting when pins and green speeds are a little nuts. Basically feeling like birdie is out of the question because any amount of putting aggression can result in a three or four putt if you're not careful. It's fun to take on a challenge like this every once in a while, but no way in hell would I want to do it every day. 

[TexasTurf]

On 5/27/2025 at 10:07 AM, Shallowface said:

Often times, especially at public courses, the head pro and the head super are on the same level.

 

A club pro friend of mine, now retired, said he and the super would meet with the parks director every other week.  The argument was the same every time.  The super's main concern was that the course looked lush from the surrounding roads, so he poured the water to it.  Then, when there was just a bit of rain, play was confined to "cart path only" and 50 percent of the players opted not to play.  But since they were on the same level, the super was never ordered to do anything different, even though the harm to revenue was significant.

 

The more undulating the greens, the slower they must be.  But the GCSAA member doesn't want his buddies ragging him over his Stimp rating, so he mows them down.  No different than pin placements that are unreasonable and rough of "Easter Egg Hunt" variety, all of which leads to six hour rounds.  It's all about peer pressure with those guys.  They couldn't care less about the retail aspect.    

 

You have to hand it to the GCSAA, essentially the greenkeepers union.  They have elevated themselves far above where they used to be.  But in many cases they have become a problem and somehow they must be brought to heel.

 

 

They (the superintendents) are there to make the place play exactly how you want it to play. If that's not the case, then find someone who can make that happen. If they say that's not possible there are two options. 1: At your property and with your budget if it is impossible to provide those conditions, then you need to adjust your expectations.  2: If it is possible and you have the budget and staff to make that happen, you need to switch to someone who can produce what you want. 

 

Pretty simple. If you hate it, make a change. No hard feelings in this business. 

[Shallowface]

3 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

They (the superintendents) are there to make the place play exactly how you want it to play. If that's not the case, then find someone who can make that happen. If they say that's not possible there are two options. 1: At your property and with your budget if it is impossible to provide those conditions, then you need to adjust your expectations.  2: If it is possible and you have the budget and staff to make that happen, you need to switch to someone who can produce what you want. 

 

Pretty simple. If you hate it, make a change. No hard feelings in this business. 

At the public course level, the parks director is likely not a golfer, so the only thing they have to go on is the argument between the super and the pro.

 

And in this particular case, the super won.  Guess the director found him a bit more charming.

 

The superintendent is there to make the place play exactly how THEY want it to play.  If anyone complains, they have a ready made list of excuses as to why those complaints are unfounded or unreasonable.  All delivered with a smile.  

 

As I said, you have to hand it to them.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

22 hours ago, Roody said:

I call it defensive putting when pins and green speeds are a little nuts. Basically feeling like birdie is out of the question because any amount of putting aggression can result in a three or four putt if you're not careful. It's fun to take on a challenge like this every once in a while, but no way in hell would I want to do it every day. 

Yes tottaly get that. My problem is putting down hill i can force my self to barely tap it so it dont go off green. I tap.. it gets stuck half way somehow leaving a 8 foot still down hill still fast par. Tap again... goes off green.. thats soo bad lol now miss bogey and make double or triple when i was on for birdie? Thats crazy.  Some putts wouldnt stop straight ever.. they either rolled left or right and it seemed like it was going to stop but kept rolling slowly somehow away 3 feet or more usually more and left or right. It was putting hell to be honest.

[TexasTurf]

20 hours ago, Shallowface said:

At the public course level, the parks director is likely not a golfer, so the only thing they have to go on is the argument between the super and the pro.

 

And in this particular case, the super won.  Guess the director found him a bit more charming.

 

The superintendent is there to make the place play exactly how THEY want it to play.  If anyone complains, they have a ready made list of excuses as to why those complaints are unfounded or unreasonable.  All delivered with a smile.  

 

As I said, you have to hand it to them.

I understand now. That's a different world than what I was referring to, I feel your pain.

 

What I don't understand and never will is the ego fight between supers and pros. When they work together it turns out great because they see the game and property from both sides and can create something amazing. There will be some disagreements but that is normal, just communicate and work towards what is best for the customer that is actually doable.

 

There's a famous, or infamous head pro here in Dallas at a public course, who likes to drive and park carts on frosted greens to intimidate and provoke the super to assert his dominance. Most of the time it's not going to cause any problems because it's dormant bermuda, but it's just dumb. Just talk and work together. 

[mshills]

On 5/27/2025 at 11:00 AM, 596 said:

It's a big ego thing for some clubs to have the "fastest" greens.  Even when it destroys the actual nature of the green.  Greens with lots of slope should be slower for more pin placements and faster rounds. If you want fast, have flatter greens.  Sloped and fast don't mix well for 99% of all golfers.  

 

Most maintenance guys don't play golf.  They have no idea want happens when placing a pin on a slope.  I set pins for many many years and still do for our biggest 3 day tourney of the year.  I've called the shop and requested some pins be moved before.  They believe me when I say it's in a stupid spot.  And our greens roll a solid 8 downhill! 😂 

Yes. There is often a 🐓 size contest….our greens are faster than yours….our greens are second in speed only to one place in Western PA….

 

I don’t get it. Faster greens don’t necessarily mean better. If they roll beautifully, great. If they are consistent 1-18 + practice green, even better! I don’t have a hard and fast equation on this but the speed should suit the greens, and of course the players or the membership. 
 

Posting the alleged stimpmeter every day is not the best idea. All that does is feed the Johnson size contest.

[mshills]

6 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

There's a famous, or infamous head pro here in Dallas at a public course, who likes to drive and park carts on frosted greens to intimidate and provoke the super to assert his dominance. Most of the time it's not going to cause any problems because it's dormant bermuda, but it's just dumb. Just talk and work together. 

🤯🤯🤯 WHAT?

 

Good Lord. I’ve been around the game in some way since I started caddying at 12 or 13. Thought I’d seen it all, but I guess not!

[James the Hogan Fan]

A course near me had a slightly downhill par 3 at about 190 yards.

 

I hit what I judged to be a great 5 iron that landed slightly left, 2 yards on, and rolled to 10' above the hole. The guy I was playing with hit a straight shank 45° offline and cutting away that went 150 yards into some trees. 

 

He hit a pitch that landed in the rough and bounced onto the fringe. Then he hit a lag put to 8'. 

 

I breathed on my ball with the putter and watched my ball roll by the hole, roll by his ball, and stop 15' past. Then I hit my putt back up, showing him the line, and missed. He used my line and made the bogey putt, while I tapped in for the same.

 

He said he played good strategic golf. I gave him some polite advice on where he could put his "good strategic golf"... And I don't really play at that course anymore. 

Edited May 30 by James the Hogan Fan

[mshills]

We have one green that has gotten too extreme over the years and will need to be reworked at some point. There are far too few workable pins on that green, and when we get to summer speed, I’ve seen this more times than I’d like. 
 

160 yard tee shot executed beautifully. 20-25’ below the hole. 
Putt #1 comes up 6” short. Rolls back to player’s feet. 
Putt #2 hit slightly harder, 6” beyond the cup. Rolls back to player’s feet. 
 

To my mind that is ridiculous and means that pin cannot be placed there, there’s no way that is identifying skill. 

[Petethreeput]

I have been thinking about this for a moment.  And just like pace of play discussions this one brings me back to George Carlin and his driving bit (an absolute masterpiece) in regards to too slow/too fast.

 

I agree with the premise, these courses with the hilly greens, insane speeds, and dubious pin placements are no fun to play.  But, just this weekend I was in a tourney and while the greens were rolling about 9.5-10 (they don't post it), almost everyone I played with over the three days complained about the speeds of the greens because they were too slow.  It wasn't what they remembered, or whatever.  On the other hand, the POP was about 4:30 not 5:45 like back in the day when they grease the greens up, and they liked that aspect of it.

 

I like fast greens, I don't like stupid fast (obviously what this post is about), but in the grand scheme of things I suspect courses will get fewer people complaining about being too fast than too slow.