Reduced shaft weight not increasing speed?

[BogeyTed]

Ok. Odd question time. 

 

How come I can't swing light graphite shafts faster than heavier steel shafts?

 

Shouldn't this be how it goes? 

[Pleasedwith3putts]

Common misconception - there is an optimum weight for the physical strength and characteristics of any swing. It's all about optimal sequencing, that's why some of the tiny LPGA players still hit it a reasonable distance and for instance a set up that's too light can cause casting and poor mechanics losing speed. Also why lots of club-builders tell you not to get too hung up on swing-weight, it's a blunt instrument and many players can feel the club more and have the confidence to release it at heavier weights. The only exception really is if the player has real physical limitations whereby something too heavy is beyond their capabilities.

[vandyfan]

When I went in to get fitted this most recent time, I was blind handed shafts. I swung a KBS Tour 130X faster and more under control than anything in the 115 category and even a 105. Ditto for Driver where I found the most efficiency at 70ish grams. 

[Drivingrangehero]

20 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

When I went in to get fitted this most recent time, I was blind handed shafts. I swung a KBS Tour 130X faster and more under control than anything in the 115 category and even a 105. Ditto for Driver where I found the most efficiency at 70ish grams. 

Same, I’ll swing a C-Taper 130 quicker than DG 100 mid, or Modus 105 because I tend to swing out of my shoes with a overly heavy/stiff shaft seeking the feedback (shaft load feeling) that I want……….. that never seems to come with something overly heavy/stiff for me

[gvogel]

My take is this.  When you take the club back, your wrists c0ck.  Then they un-c0ck near impact.  if your wrists are very flexible, maybe the club releases at the right time with a light shaft.  But maybe your wrists are not so flexible, and the heavier weight helps keep the club from releasing too early.  So it depends upon the player.

 

Then there is this: a heavier shaft may make it easier to make square contact.  i know that when I played hickory the extra weight was helpful in that regard.  So the extra few hp from a light shaft might be negated by inconsistent contact.

 

My $.02.

[Pepperturbo]

4 hours ago, BogeyTed said:

Ok. Odd question time. 

 

How come I can't swing light graphite shafts faster than heavier steel shafts?

 

Shouldn't this be how it goes? 

Hard to say, maybe it's something you're unaware of.  Just because the club has a graphite shaft doesn't necessary mean you'll swing it faster.  It depends on how each club is set up, and how it matches your swing. 

 

I can swing a graphite club really fast, but at that speed I won't hit the ball properly.   That was my problem with lighter weight 65g-85g shafts in my irons; my tempo was too fast for the mid-low bend profile.  Which led to heavier weight shafts with different mid-high or high bend profile.  Swinging a club is one thing, properly swing the club to hit the ball solidly takes a slightly different swing.  

Edited June 10 by Pepperturbo

[phizzy30]

Sequencing and being able to feel the head on the down swing.  If either or both are off from a shaft or setup being too light or heavy, it causes inconsistencies therefore tricking your brain into either swinging harder or vice versa.  This can also alter your swing path and face angle as well.  The trick is to find the right swing and total swing weight for your swing.  

Edited June 10 by phizzy30

[Drivingrangehero]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

it causes inconsistencies therefore tricking your brain into either swinging harder or vice versa.  This can also alter your swing path and face angle as well.

Absolutely 

that is why I launch clubs with overly heavy/stiff shafts higher than I do with Regular shafts around 100g 

 

heavy/stiff causes me to release early since I’m swinging out of my shoes looking for feedback, another reason why I put ZERO thought into a shafts supposed “launch characteristics” 

 

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

Not just shaft weight, but light graphite shafts are often married to light static weight clubs, which can be problematic if you are not receiving the physical cues you need.  Swing speed is built through the swing, and it's tough to accelerate at the ball when you have lost feeling for the club. 

 

Some interesting stats for you showing the variability in club static weights.  When I compared 7i across sets, I found the following (adjusted for grip weight):

Ping i525 w/Recoil SW 780 R flex - 392g

Hogan Edge 19 w/Recoil SW 760 R flex - 406g

D7 Forged w/$-Taper Lite 100g S flex - 423g

Mizuno 923 Tour w/DG 120 S flex - 430g

Hogan Radial 84 w/Apex 3 S flex - 440g

 

So the club with the lighter version of the shaft (Edge) weighed 14g more than the club with the 13g heavier version of the same shaft (i525).  The D7's shaft weighs 18g less than the Mizuno, yet the static weight of the club is only 7g lighter.  This is what makes trial and fitting so important. 

 

Even the 14g static weight between the Hogans and Ping i525 made a difference, as I hit the Hogans so much better.  Much of this may have been in "head feel" as the club still weighed more with a lighter shaft.

 

Also noted above that each person feels and loads a shaft differently, and this will affect flight characteristics differently than the manufacturer's claim.  I hit "low launch" stiff tip shafts higher as they have a soft handle, and this bend and load helps me release better.

[Nessism]

The difference between a Dynamic Gold, one of the heaviest shafts on the market, and a 100 gram graphite, is only ONE ounce.  

[Ri_Redneck]

43 minutes ago, Nessism said:

The difference between a Dynamic Gold, one of the heaviest shafts on the market, and a 100 gram graphite, is only ONE ounce.  

I'm pretty sure that's not the ONLY difference.

 

BT

[ScooterMcTavish]

40 minutes ago, Nessism said:

The difference between a Dynamic Gold, one of the heaviest shafts on the market, and a 100 gram graphite, is only ONE ounce.  

 

Agreed.  Problem I've found is that to maintain a "proper" swing weight that the shaft and head weighting also tend to be lighter.

 

My Ping i525 were the most egregious example - shaft was only 13g lighter than the 100g in my D7F.  Yet the club static weight was 31g lighter.  

You've shown a great ability to tinker with clubs over the years @Nessism and I wish I had your ability/setup/time to do it myself.  Challenges for most of us, unfortunately, is we need to live with all of the changes the manufacturer makes to the club as soon as they move to a lighter shaft, especially graphite.

[Nessism]

9 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

Agreed.  Problem I've found is that to maintain a "proper" swing weight that the shaft and head weighting also tend to be lighter.

 

My Ping i525 were the most egregious example - shaft was only 13g lighter than the 100g in my D7F.  Yet the club static weight was 31g lighter.  

You've shown a great ability to tinker with clubs over the years @Nessism and I wish I had your ability/setup/time to do it myself.  Challenges for most of us, unfortunately, is we need to live with all of the changes the manufacturer makes to the club as soon as they move to a lighter shaft, especially graphite.

 

28 grams is one ounce, so 31 grams...

 

It's not about the physics of adding one ounce to a dynamic instrument, the important thing is how the weight affects OUR SWING. 

[Ri_Redneck]

Anecdotally, I find that total weight affects my timing and MOI affects my release. I can get away with a good bit of variance in total weight, but the MOI of my clubs needs to be within 50+/- or I have to adjust my swing.

 

Incidentally, I took my 1984 Wilson Staff blades (1980s TT Dynamic S shafts) to the range today at lunch to see how I would do with them since I haven't hit them in over a decade. Total weight is a bit higher than my Limit3d irons, but the MOI is pretty close. All I have to say is they're going to become my "vintage bag" irons for sure and I may have to put that 3i in my regular bag next round on a windy day!!

 

BT

[enfuego]

I found I had to train my swing for lighter shafts, it wasn't immediate, switched my whole bag to match. If I pick up a heavier club I now swing it a few mph slower.

[Nard_S]

Picked up speed and better clustering w/ switch from DG 115g SL to S400. My belief is it encourages bigger use of back & core muscles, post transition. Can't prove it, just felt that way.

[ScooterMcTavish]

1 hour ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Incidentally, I took my 1984 Wilson Staff blades (1980s TT Dynamic S shafts) to the range today at lunch to see how I would do with them since I haven't hit them in over a decade. Total weight is a bit higher than my Limit3d irons, but the MOI is pretty close. All I have to say is they're going to become my "vintage bag" irons for sure and I may have to put that 3i in my regular bag next round on a windy day!!

 

I actually just cleaned up my Hogan Radials yesterday, and am playing a 9 with them before league tonight.  Also threw my old Hogan 3 & 5 wood persimmons in the bag, and am still undecided between putting with a flanged Bullseye or a My Day.

 

Over the years, I have found that I hit a certain point each season where I get frustrated with a lack of improvement in my game, so a "reset" with some vintage is helpful.  Seen some regression in my iron play and putting the last two weeks, so even nine holes may be helpful.

 

But for so many of us old guys, I wonder if this is why we seem to struggle with graphite and/or lighter clubs.  From a strength perspective, we can certainly muscle a lighter club faster.  But from a control perspective, we all learned on heavy and unforgiving clubs, which placed a premium of head control and tempo.

 

I mean, I've swing the living snot out of some very light drivers (G430 w/50g shaft; Cleveland Classic 270), and it just feels "wrong".

 

 

[Ri_Redneck]

Just now, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

I actually just cleaned up my Hogan Radials yesterday, and am playing a 9 with them before league tonight.  Also threw my old Hogan 3 & 5 wood persimmons in the bag, and am still undecided between putting with a flanged Bullseye or a My Day.

 

Over the years, I have found that I hit a certain point each season where I get frustrated with a lack of improvement in my game, so a "reset" with some vintage is helpful.  Seen some regression in my iron play and putting the last two weeks, so even nine holes may be helpful.

 

But for so many of us old guys, I wonder if this is why we seem to struggle with graphite and/or lighter clubs.  From a strength perspective, we can certainly muscle a lighter club faster.  But from a control perspective, we all learned on heavy and unforgiving clubs, which placed a premium of head control and tempo.

 

I mean, I've swing the living snot out of some very light drivers (G430 w/50g shaft; Cleveland Classic 270), and it just feels "wrong".

 

 

That's awesome.I forgot to add that I had my blonde Ping Zing driver and 3w there too. The face progression on those still throws me off some. I have Honma persimmon driver and 4w that I think I will pair with the irons for the vintage bag. 

 

I also have a set of 1963 MacGregor MT irons and matching persimmon (Keysite) woods that I would LOVE to play, but I'm concerned the shafts may have rusted inside before I got them and may break, so I never hit them. I sure want to though!

[ScooterMcTavish]

35 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Picked up speed and better clustering w/ switch from DG 115g SL to S400. My belief is it encourages bigger use of back & core muscles, post transition. Can't prove it, just felt that way.

 

I've tried to think my way through this, and at least in my case, I believe our muscles are used to a certain level of feel and resistance.  So if the club is heavy "enough" our muscles feel the appropriate resistance, and can load and sequence in a confident manner.  It's when we lose this resistance, we lose the feel our body expects to have when executing a swing.

 

Kind of like any other "physics" based activity - for example, using a prybar to pull nails out of a piece of wood.  After removing a number of nails, our body/brain has a good idea how much force to apply to the next nail.  If it requires a bit more, we adapt, then apply a bit more.  However, if the nail is loose and comes flying out, the prybar goes flying, we lose our balance, and now we don't know what to do with the next nail.

I think @enfuego has it right - to swing the lighter club, we need to retrain our bodies to this different expectation of what happens when we pull on the loose nail.  

[Ri_Redneck]

1 hour ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

I've tried to think my way through this, and at least in my case, I believe our muscles are used to a certain level of feel and resistance.  So if the club is heavy "enough" our muscles feel the appropriate resistance, and can load and sequence in a confident manner.  It's when we lose this resistance, we lose the feel our body expects to have when executing a swing.

 

Kind of like any other "physics" based activity - for example, using a prybar to pull nails out of a piece of wood.  After removing a number of nails, our body/brain has a good idea how much force to apply to the next nail.  If it requires a bit more, we adapt, then apply a bit more.  However, if the nail is loose and comes flying out, the prybar goes flying, we lose our balance, and now we don't know what to do with the next nail.

I think @enfuego has it right - to swing the lighter club, we need to retrain our bodies to this different expectation of what happens when we pull on the loose nail.  

EXACTLY! The REAL problem comes when someone has a set of club that the weights are all over the place. They can't get calibrated because the target keeps moving. 

 

Also, SW isn't a weight!

 

BT

Edited June 11 by Ri_Redneck

[Nard_S]

2 hours ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

I think @enfuego has it right - to swing the lighter club, we need to retrain our bodies to this different expectation of what happens when we pull on the loose nail.

Or we re-train to to move hands faster, to take advantage of lighter mass?

 

I have no need to adjust weighting, happy where they are but if i was to go lighter, i would seek faster hand speed and match swing to it. So with either lighter or heavier, moving more than say 5-8 grams, an effort to work better to the gear is probably in the cards. Good chance it needs, 500-1000 reps too.