Phil Mickelson - The Art of Chipping

[GwrxMod]

Topic cleaned up.
 

Let’s be less chippy with each other or is that more chippy to stay on topic? 🤷‍♂️ 

 

Edited July 4 by GwrxMod

[Johnny Biarritz]

6 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Haven’t watched, if something he says works for someone then it’s helpful. 
 

But not being a scratch golfer and having been fit for wedges a few times and trying different grinds and very much needling and understanding the differences, his statement is a little ignorant.  

You might not be scratch but you took the time and expense to get fully fit for a set of wedges and also, most likely, have a wedge swing that's repeatable enough for it to make a difference. For players unwilling to be properly fit for clubs, he's exactly right. For most people willing to get fit for wedges, the honest answer to most people trying to get fit for a bag of wedges should be "cousin, you don't need $1500 worth of custom wedges, what you need is to take 15 lessons" but fitters are on commission so that never happens...in this case, Phil is also correct.

[TheDeanAbides]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

You might not be scratch but you took the time and expense to get fully fit for a set of wedges and also, most likely, have a wedge swing that's repeatable enough for it to make a difference. For players unwilling to be properly fit for clubs, he's exactly right. For most people willing to get fit for wedges, the honest answer to most people trying to get fit for a bag of wedges should be "cousin, you don't need $1500 worth of custom wedges, what you need is to take 15 lessons" but fitters are on commission so that never happens...in this case, Phil is also correct.

There's a lot of distance between $1500 worth of custom wedges and not caring at all about grinds. 

[EddieEdwards]

6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Does anyone buy this idea Phil talks about regarding never having the ball in the middle of the stance? It seems poorly thought out to me. I like the ball in the middle sometimes - depends what I'm trying to do, the lie, club choice etc. I've never felt like it shows a lack of commitment. 

I don't see a problem with it in the middle.  Extremely back you get into sticking the leading edge in the turf.  Extremely forward you need excessive forward lean/movement.  I think it should almost always be inbetween your feet.  

 

I watched the beginning, and this was the only thing I disagreed with.

[StoutKing]

Great video.  What's a high flier?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

You might not be scratch but you took the time and expense to get fully fit for a set of wedges and also, most likely, have a wedge swing that's repeatable enough for it to make a difference. For players unwilling to be properly fit for clubs, he's exactly right. For most people willing to get fit for wedges, the honest answer to most people trying to get fit for a bag of wedges should be "cousin, you don't need $1500 worth of custom wedges, what you need is to take 15 lessons" but fitters are on commission so that never happens...in this case, Phil is also correct.

 

No, that's just excusing his opinion which was a blanket statement for anyone and everyone watching his video.  So again, no, he's completely wrong and frankly, dismissive. 

 

"Bag of wedges"? $1500? LOL, my three SM10s cost me $567 and the fitting was free. 

 

This has nothing to do with "fitters on commission" or anything like it.  You don't think 1, 2, 5, 9, 10 caps aren't checking different bounce and grind combos whether they have a custom fit?  Of course they are, and they should be, and fitting for bounce/grind is a pretty basic and easy thing to do these days.

 

I first got fit for wedges fourteen years ago and it was an eye opener and by leaps and bounds much more common now.  

[Hawkeye77]

27 minutes ago, StoutKing said:

Great video.  What's a high flier?

 

LOL, not biting on this - but it's "Flyer" . . . 

Edited July 4 by Hawkeye77

[Johnny Biarritz]

23 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

No, that's just excusing his opinion which was a blanket statement for anyone and everyone watching his video.  So again, no, he's completely wrong and frankly, dismissive. 

 

"Bag of wedges"? $1500? LOL, my three SM10s cost me $567 and the fitting was free. 

 

This has nothing to do with "fitters on commission" or anything like it.  You don't think 1, 2, 5, 9, 10 caps aren't checking different bounce and grind combos whether they have a custom fit?  Of course they are, and they should be, and fitting for bounce/grind is a pretty basic and easy thing to do these days.

 

I first got fit for wedges fourteen years ago and it was an eye opener and by leaps and bounds much more common now.  

He is dismissive and rightfully so. For anyone who's not in the top 5% or 10% of all golfers, wedge "grinds" are placebo. You could take a "Z" grind and stamp a "X" on it and they'd never know the difference but would think it's the best thing since slice bread if you told them it would help.

 

I first got fit for wedges 26 years ago in the tool shed of a driving range using a bench grinder back when it was actually a grind and not just a stamped sole profile. I ground off part of the sole of my lob wedge because I hit a lot of flop shots and needed less sole on the heel of the club; added lead tape to get the swing weight correct. I'd already broken par before it made a difference.

 

I was in the golf business in different capacities from 1998 until 2009 and fit people on the side for several years after that. I've taught a lot of lessons and fit a lot of people for clubs. I passed the Advanced Clubmaker course for the Golf Clubmakers Association before Golfsmith went out of business and messed it all up. I know a little bit about fitting clubs. Yes, grinds are beneficial for a small portion of golfers, maybe that's at 5 handicap, maybe 10, but the average audience of that video, the average guy going to YouTube for his golf tips, definitely isn't good enough for a S-X-Y-Z-Q WhateverTF grind to make a difference. Stop worrying about grinds and go practice. That's what Phil is saying.

[dwboston]

19 minutes ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

He is dismissive and rightfully so. For anyone who's not in the top 5% or 10% of all golfers, wedge "grinds" are placebo. You could take a "Z" grind and stamp a "X" on it and they'd never know the difference but would think it's the best thing since slice bread if you told them it would help.

 

I first got fit for wedges 26 years ago in the tool shed of a driving range using a bench grinder back when it was actually a grind and not just a stamped sole profile. I ground off part of the sole of my lob wedge because I hit a lot of flop shots and needed less sole on the heel of the club; added lead tape to get the swing weight correct. I'd already broken par before it made a difference.

 

I was in the golf business in different capacities from 1998 until 2009 and fit people on the side for several years after that. I've taught a lot of lessons and fit a lot of people for clubs. I passed the Advanced Clubmaker course for the Golf Clubmakers Association before Golfsmith went out of business and messed it all up. I know a little bit about fitting clubs. Yes, grinds are beneficial for a small portion of golfers, maybe that's at 5 handicap, maybe 10, but the average audience of that video, the average guy going to YouTube for his golf tips, definitely isn't good enough for a S-X-Y-Z-Q WhateverTF grind to make a difference. Stop worrying about grinds and go practice. That's what Phil is saying.

 

He said the same thing about bounce in the original short game DVDs. As long as you have a reasonable minimum amount of bounce (I believe he referenced "8 degrees" as reasonable) it just doesn't make that big of a difference. He made the same point with where you enter the sand on bunker shots - it doesn't have to be that precise. Get the setup right and swing through to the finish position and the ball will come out. He's simplifying it for average golfers.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

He is dismissive and rightfully so. For anyone who's not in the top 5% or 10% of all golfers, wedge "grinds" are placebo. You could take a "Z" grind and stamp a "X" on it and they'd never know the difference but would think it's the best thing since slice bread if you told them it would help.

 

2 hours ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

 

Stop worrying about grinds and go practice. That's what Phil is saying.

 

Actually he includes scratch golfers in the group that doesn't need to worry about grinds, so really more ignorant than at first blush - and if you watched, he doesn't even use the word "grind" so we're apparently cutting him slack as he talks about "heel bounce" and "toe bounce" and how it really doesn't matter but . . . you need to be able to lay that 60 flat because you are playing every shot with an open face and adding bounce.  When the average golfer tries his method and his or her wedge literally bounces off the ground because it can't be laid flat (should have had that toe and heel bounce removed or less "back bounce") or digs a trench by trying to manipulate the face to make it flat while hitting down really hard as he advises, you are correct, the grind won't matter because they'll be tossing that wedge about 50 yards into the club pool. 

 

For someone with experience as a fitter being equally dismissive is odd, and not the attitude I've encountered over the years, but everyone has a different approach. Give folks the best chance for success, shouldn't be an attitude of "you aren't good enough to worry about wedge bounce or grind just close your eyes and pick one off the rack."

Edited July 4 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, dwboston said:

 

He said the same thing about bounce in the original short game DVDs. As long as you have a reasonable minimum amount of bounce (I believe he referenced "8 degrees" as reasonable) it just doesn't make that big of a difference. He made the same point with where you enter the sand on bunker shots - it doesn't have to be that precise. Get the setup right and swing through to the finish position and the ball will come out. He's simplifying it for average golfers.

 

But, he's talking about grinds not generally about bounce in this one, but just not using the term, and using the two terms interchangeably.  Sand vs. all sorts of lies around the greens are apples to oranges.

 

If he thinks "scratch or worse" golfers aren't good enough to need to care about bounce/grind combos that's his opinion.  

 

Maybe he'll clarify in the next video. 

[mshills]

Y’all are tripping. 
 

There is a FREE video there of over an hour from one of the best ever to do it, and you’re fixated and bickering about one insignificant point…

 

There is not one person walking the planet today who I could watch an hour video of, on any subject, and not find something I don’t agree with. 
 

Go PLAY GOLF.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, mshills said:

Y’all are tripping. 
 

There is a FREE video there of over an hour from one of the best ever to do it, and you’re fixated and bickering about one insignificant point…

 

There is not one person walking the planet today who I could watch an hour video of, on any subject, and not find something I don’t agree with. 
 

Go PLAY GOLF.

Nobody is bickering. 

 

Edit: and @mshills, and not bickering or picking on you, but the only reason I bothered to watch part of the video is because you used the part about "grinds" as the jumping off discussion point.  
 

But happy to move on!

Edited July 4 by Hawkeye77

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

He is dismissive and rightfully so. For anyone who's not in the top 5% or 10% of all golfers, wedge "grinds" are placebo.

 

Hard disagree with that, having helped and seen a bunch of people outside of that 10% with their wedges. Heck, there are still people that remember fondly the Alien wedge and other similar clubs. Not only do I think the amount of bounce matters — a 6° wedge that's got a wide sole plays very differently than a 6° sole with a lot of heel and toe relief and a sharp, quick camber.

 

2 hours ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

Yes, grinds are beneficial for a small portion of golfers, maybe that's at 5 handicap, maybe 10, but the average audience of that video…

 

To be clear, he said scratch or better in the video. Does the 20 handicapper really need to worry about grinds? Probably well down on the list, and I think most here would agree with that. The discussion seems to be (to me at least) whether his statement about not worrying about it until you're scratch is accurate.

 

I don't think it is. Nor does…

 

10 hours ago, virtuoso said:

In case we weren’t confused enough, I’d say the opposite:the better you are, the less the grind matters. 
 

If a guy is sticking the leading edge into the ground, then a fat wide flange with a big bounce angle can help.

 

A better player would prefer to have a custom bounce/grind/sole width, but can work around it with decent technique adjustments.

 

Not sure if @virtuoso really thinks it matters for a 20, though if he's fitting a 20 for wedges I'm sure he still spends a little time giving them the best thing for what they do and where they play, and not just handing them whatever wedges for which they have the most stock. 😛

 

1 hour ago, mshills said:

There is a FREE video there of over an hour from one of the best ever to do it, and you’re fixated and bickering about one insignificant point…

 

There is not one person walking the planet today who I could watch an hour video of, on any subject, and not find something I don’t agree with.

 

So we're not allowed to discuss videos? Or are you only saying that because…

 

11 hours ago, mshills said:

Fantastic video….over an hour with one of the best to ever do it? Yes, please. Enjoyed his dismissal of all the obsession with grinds “….unless you are scratch or better, don’t worry about it….”

 

… you disagree with those who think that comment wasn't quite right?

[mshills]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

So we're not allowed to discuss videos? Or are you only saying that because…

 

 

… you disagree with those who think that comment wasn't quite right?

You’re funny. Come on now, that is not what I said. You know if that is what I meant, I would say so. It’s a fantastic video, and like any person talking for an hour on any topic, of course there is something to disagree with. 

[iacas]

Just now, mshills said:

You’re funny. Come on now, that is not what I said. You know if that is what I meant, I would say so. It’s a fantastic video, and like any person talking for an hour on any topic, of course there is something to disagree with. 

 

I mean… you told us that we are "tripping" and to "GO PLAY GOLF". Those are things you said. And like @Hawkeye77, I don't see anyone bickering. Or fixated. We're barely on page two.

 

I think it's a decent video. I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it fantastic, and there are a number of things he says that don't quite check out (but I'm sure they make sense or "feel" right to Phil). The bounce thing, hinge and hold… the stuff about the club bouncing up into the ball to hit the high shot over someone is a partial truth…

[Hawkeye77]

 

Edit:  never mind!

 

 

Edited July 5 by Hawkeye77

[getitdaily]

I didn't and won't watch the video.

 

From my own experience, bounce matters a ton more than grind for the avg golfer. Once you're good enough be able to KNOW that bounce is either too high or too low, then you can start to toy with grinds. 

[ThinkingPlus]

So a nuance that Phil is ignoring here is that a handicap index is a total game assessment. I suspect there are a lot more single digit or maybe even double digit caps with plus short games whereas the opposite is more rare. That is maybe nitpicking a level lower than we should, but blanket generalizations of the kind he made invites greater scrutiny.

[Johnny Biarritz]

20 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

I didn't and won't watch the video.

 

From my own experience, bounce matters a ton more than grind for the avg golfer. Once you're good enough be able to KNOW that bounce is either too high or too low, then you can start to toy with grinds. 

Bounce is very important. Bounce also, by itself, has nothing to do with the sole profile. As you know. But as long as there is "enough" bounce, the rest doesn't make much difference. Sole profiles, or "grinds" to use the parlance of our times, are of little importance. If the player isn't laying the face open then the sole profile doesn't mean anything. Taking 2mm off one part of the sole doesn't change the play of the club unless the player needs that exact part of the club to behave a particular way.

[Hawkeye77]

16 minutes ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

If the player isn't laying the face open then the sole profile doesn't mean anything. 

 

Just completely wrong. A one dimensional view of shots around the greens.

 

All shots not face laid open, all lies, all turf conditions are not created equal.  

Edited July 5 by Hawkeye77

[rsballer10]

I'm on the fence on the bounce/grind thing. Its not the primary topic of the video, and like everything phil says it's mostly true up until it's not (Phil's book of rules has a lot of loopholes) 🙃

 

I can't see how being fit for grinds would harm someone's game - at any skill level. Assuming they were properly fit. Its nice to have options, and its hard to deny that having relief in heel/toe/trailing edge doesn't make a wedge more versatile. 

 

However, I've seen just as many posts in the equipment section saying what you can/can't do with certain grinds and i would also call BS. Technique is still the overriding factor IMO

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

10 hours ago, Johnny Biarritz said:

He is dismissive and rightfully so. For anyone who's not in the top 5% or 10% of all golfers, wedge "grinds" are placebo. You could take a "Z" grind and stamp a "X" on it and they'd never know the difference but would think it's the best thing since slice bread if you told them it would help.

 

I first got fit for wedges 26 years ago in the tool shed of a driving range using a bench grinder back when it was actually a grind and not just a stamped sole profile. I ground off part of the sole of my lob wedge because I hit a lot of flop shots and needed less sole on the heel of the club; added lead tape to get the swing weight correct. I'd already broken par before it made a difference.

 

I was in the golf business in different capacities from 1998 until 2009 and fit people on the side for several years after that. I've taught a lot of lessons and fit a lot of people for clubs. I passed the Advanced Clubmaker course for the Golf Clubmakers Association before Golfsmith went out of business and messed it all up. I know a little bit about fitting clubs. Yes, grinds are beneficial for a small portion of golfers, maybe that's at 5 handicap, maybe 10, but the average audience of that video, the average guy going to YouTube for his golf tips, definitely isn't good enough for a S-X-Y-Z-Q WhateverTF grind to make a difference. Stop worrying about grinds and go practice. That's what Phil is saying.

I get it. Grinds are BUNK.

[getitdaily]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I get it. Grinds are BUNK.

For about 95% of golfers...yes. 

[Hawkeye77]

So . . . . .

 

Some folks love Phil and no doubt enjoy listening to him and watching him hit shots.  I don't, and I don't think I'd watch a Jack Nicklaus video about chipping (lighting about to strike me) but I'd watch him talk about just about anything else and have seen what little is out there.  

 

Forget about the grind bit - if this video "speaks" to you for some reason, what is it about his techniques/explanations that resonates with you? Is it more about the Phil experience regardless of what he says because he makes it look so easy?  Do you subscribe to his method and does it work for you? 

 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

46 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

So . . . . .

 

Some folks love Phil and no doubt enjoy listening to him and watching him hit shots.  I don't, and I don't think I'd watch a Jack Nicklaus video about chipping (lighting about to strike me) but I'd watch him talk about just about anything else and have seen what little is out there.  

 

Forget about the grind bit - if this video "speaks" to you for some reason, what is it about his techniques/explanations that resonates with you? Is it more about the Phil experience regardless of what he says because he makes it look so easy?  Do you subscribe to his method and does it work for you? 

 

 

Arnold Palmer gave Jack a chipping lesson from off the green. Stop chipping and putt it. From how far back, I don't know. Secondly, I personally would watch the Phil video without sound and observe what he is doing rather than what he's saying. I get more out of what the best player did by watching than listening to their feels. 

[GwrxMod]

One more report from this topic and warnings/suspensions will follow. 

 

This includes anti-Phil thread crappers. Move on to another topic if you don't like him for whatever reason. 

[stryper]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Arnold Palmer gave Jack a chipping lesson from off the green. Stop chipping and putt it. From how far back, I don't know. Secondly, I personally would watch the Phil video without sound and observe what he is doing rather than what he's saying. I get more out of what the best player did by watching than listening to their feels. 

Jack has said that he didn’t have much of a short game then…he didn’t need one.  Arnold apparently saw this and offered some practical advice.  May even have cost Arnold some money throughout the years, as Jack eventually  usurped Arnold’s place on the throne.  
 

Early in Phil’s video even he mentioned that there are some situations where putting from off the green might be the only sensible play.  I think there’s a lot of nuance presented here, and whether you agree with his specific language or not, there’s value to be had.  Same could be said about Pelz, Utley or Sieckmann, all massively respected.
 

Listen, look, agree/disagree and learn.  🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited July 5 by stryper

[tthomasgolfer605]

29 minutes ago, stryper said:

Jack has said that he didn’t have much of a short game then…he didn’t need one.  Arnold apparently saw this and offered some practical advice.  May even have cost Arnold some money throughout the years, as Jack eventually  usurped Arnold’s place on the throne.  
 

Early in Phil’s video even he mentioned that there are some situations where putting from off the green might be the only sensible play.  I think there’s a lot of nuance presented here, and whether you agree with his specific language or not, there’s value to be had.  Same could be said about Pelz, Utley or Sieckmann, all massively respected.
 

Listen, look, agree/disagree and learn.  🤷🏻‍♂️

If I have a questionable lie now, I pull out a 3 hybrid from off the green. A bit more loft works wonders than a putter going through fairway grass. I grip it down to the end of the grip and it's more like a putting stroke with a more straight up setup.  

[goudok]

19 hours ago, StoutKing said:

Great video.  What's a high flier?

 a new loyalty frequent flyer program for people missing a lot of greens