Head Weight + Shaft Length = Ballpark SW & Flex

[AppState09]

Mini Driver build. Club head is 215g. Spec length is 43.75” at D3. I will have an uncut shaft and from what I read 215g is in between 3 and 5 wood. So that should be a 0.5” to 1” tip trim. 
 

I like to play my driving woods around D8-9, theoretically adding another 15-18 grams. So this would be 230g+. Would I tip trim more then butt cut to length to get approximately the same flex and length at a higher SW? 

Not going to throw grip weight in this equation (I play heavy midsize). Not a counter balanced shaft to my knowledge, WB 63S. Same 10g weight range as the stock shaft, 64g. 
 

I know it won’t be exact but I don’t want to over/under tip. Just trying to wrap my head around it. Thanks!

[Howard_Jones]

6 hours ago, AppState09 said:

Mini Driver build. Club head is 215g. Spec length is 43.75” at D3. I will have an uncut shaft and from what I read 215g is in between 3 and 5 wood. So that should be a 0.5” to 1” tip trim. 
 

I like to play my driving woods around D8-9, theoretically adding another 15-18 grams. So this would be 230g+. Would I tip trim more then butt cut to length to get approximately the same flex and length at a higher SW? 

Not going to throw grip weight in this equation (I play heavy midsize). Not a counter balanced shaft to my knowledge, WB 63S. Same 10g weight range as the stock shaft, 64g. 
 

I know it won’t be exact but I don’t want to over/under tip. Just trying to wrap my head around it. Thanks!

Your SW thinking is far out, shooting for a value on a club you never tried.
If you keep PL at 43.75" and the club now is D3 with 215 gram head wgt, thats normally 0.75" Tip trim. 1 SWP is 1.61 grams at 43.75" where moving D3 to D8 is 5 x 1,61 = 8 grams (half of what you think). 215+8 = 223 grams, or right above a 5W (220 grams = 1.0" tip trim,), but below a 7W (230 grams 1,50")

With 223-225 grams head wgt, tip trim becomes 1 1/8" to 1 2/8"

If you added 16 grams, head would be 231 = 1.5" tip trim, and SW value will now be E4.5. (7 Woods is normally 41.50 long from OEM, so its really the added 2.25 inches to PL who moves SW from D2 to E4.5 when head wgt is the same.

Edited July 8 by Howard_Jones

[AppState09]

10 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Your SW thinking is far out, shooting for a value on a club you never tried.
If you keep PL at 43.75" and the club now is D3 with 215 gram head wgt, thats normally 0.75" Tip trim. 1 SWP is 1.61 grams at 43.75" where moving D3 to D8 is 5 x 1,61 = 8 grams (half of what you think). 215+8 = 223 grams, or right above a 5W (220 grams = 1.0" tip trim,), but below a 7W (230 grams 1,50")

With 223-225 grams head wgt, tip trim becomes 1 1/8" to 1 2/8"

If you added 16 grams, head would be 231 = 1.5" tip trim, and SW value will now be E4.5. (7 Woods is normally 41.50 long from OEM, so its really the added 2.25 inches to PL who moves SW from D2 to E4.5 when head wgt is the same.

Thank you for this information @Howard_Jones! Is there a resource on SWPs at certain lengths or do you retain this from personal experience? I have always used 3g = 1 SW from the pinned post. Makes sense it is not the same. Hopefully this will be the first club I put together.

[Howard_Jones]

27 minutes ago, AppState09 said:

Thank you for this information @Howard_Jones! Is there a resource on SWPs at certain lengths or do you retain this from personal experience? I have always used 3g = 1 SW from the pinned post. Makes sense it is not the same. Hopefully this will be the first club I put together.

Swingweight is based on a mathematical formula, but again, a certain SW value tells nothing, and can not be target.....testing to figure out what head wgt that works the best is whats needed, and a club like a driver or minidriver is a "stand alone club" we DONT "match to a set", like we do with irons.
We have no use for a SW value at all on stand alone clubs, head wgt is all that matters. 

For the workshop and for dry fit purpose, we can use this chart, but its NOT for fitting purpose.



The rule of thumb, 2 grams = 1 SWP is useless, since its only valid for a club in the area of a #3 iron. All clubs longer needs less than 2 grams per SWP, all clubs shorter needs more than 2 grams per SWP.
                                                                                                

Edited July 8 by Howard_Jones

[AppState09]

Thank you again @Howard_Jones. One more question is there a rule of thumb with Playing Length and Clubhead Weight equaling a SW? I am sue shaft balance points play a huge factor in this.

 

This is great info. Thank you!

 

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, AppState09 said:

Thank you again @Howard_Jones. One more question is there a rule of thumb with Playing Length and Clubhead Weight equaling a SW? I am sue shaft balance points play a huge factor in this.

 

This is great info. Thank you!

 

No, since SW values is arbritary anyway, please stop fokus on them like they made any sence to you, they DONT...I can probably build 50 different clubs all with the same SW and non will feel the same.

What we do have, is some averages for head weight, but there is no standard for play length, not even measure methods is the same from OEM to OEM.

But in general.  (plus minus a few grams from model to model and production tolerances)
Head numbers is really a reference to weight, for woods also volume. 
 
- Drivers with weights and connector 203-207 grams
- 3W - 208-210 grams
- 4W - 215 grams
- 5W - 220  grams
- 7W - 230 grams

#3 = 240 grams
#4 - 247 grams
#5 - 254 gram
#6 - 261 grams
#7 - 268 grams
#8 - 275 grams
#9 - 282 grams
PW - 287 grams
GW - 292 grams
SW - 297 grams
LW - 302 grams

[AppState09]

16 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

No, since SW values is arbritary anyway, please stop fokus on them like they made any sence to you, they DONT...I can probably build 50 different clubs all with the same SW and non will feel the same.

What we do have, is some averages for head weight, but there is no standard for play length, not even measure methods is the same from OEM to OEM.

But in general.  (plus minus a few grams from model to model and production tolerances)
Head numbers is really a reference to weight, for woods also volume. 
 
- Drivers with weights and connector 203-207 grams
- 3W - 208-210 grams
- 4W - 215 grams
- 5W - 220  grams
- 7W - 230 grams

#3 = 240 grams
#4 - 247 grams
#5 - 254 gram
#6 - 261 grams
#7 - 268 grams
#8 - 275 grams
#9 - 282 grams
PW - 287 grams
GW - 292 grams
SW - 297 grams
LW - 302 grams

Great! This is helpful! Thank you!

[Valtiel]

21 hours ago, AppState09 said:

One more question is there a rule of thumb with Playing Length and Clubhead Weight equaling a SW?

 

16 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

No, since SW values is arbritary anyway, 

This is the main thing to take away from this. Swingweight is an imperfect and somewhat antiquated measuring system that was simply adopted as the standard because it's easy and close enough most of the time for building public meant for the general public. The moment you start doing your own fitting, try to project what something will come out as, or get stuck on assigning any significance to numbers themselves, you're heading down the wrong road. For example...

You said you like your woods on the higher side (D8-D9), BUT in order for those numbers to actually mean anything in relation to other clubs you need to account for:

- Playing length
- Shaft weight/balance point
- Grip weight

All of these will impact what "D8-D9" actually means from a heft/MOI standpoint. Your signature lists a lighter shafts across the board which is significant. You could jack up the weights on all of those shafts and if the balance points were similar the swingweight would come out the same, but the *total* weight will have increased based on the shaft change. D8 with a 53g shaft and D8 with an 83g gram shaft for example would feel wildly different despite the same SW value, and the same goes for grips. Midsize/Oversize grips will show misleadingly lower swingweight numbers compared to "Standard" weight grips (~50g), and vice versa for Ultralight designs. 

The swingweight scale was designed around a set of variables that were far more fixed at the time (shaft weight, grip weight) that today vary quite a lot (especially shaft weight). Nothing was done to update the swingweight system to account for this so today's off the rack iron that measures D2 with an ~80g counter balanced graphite shaft (like your PING Alta CB Red) is worlds apart from yesterday's D2 with a 130g steel shaft. And if for example you've added weight to your irons to get closer to that D8 number you'd actually find that feeling quite similar in terms of heft to that D2 club with the 130g shaft. A very rough exchange is 10g of shaft weight = 1 swingpoint of "feel" difference regardless of measurement. 

All that is to say....swingweight needs a lot taken into account to make sense of the numbers and translate them to other clubs.