Johnny miller reverse c - 70’s

[Ballbeater1]

Can anyone explain the reverse C ? It definitely seems like a finish from yesteryear doesn’t seem like its in style anymore , why was it so popular in the 70’s … et Jonny miller etc , what was the concept behind it , what caused it , what was the point of it? Did they believe it was doing something ?

Edited July 12 by Ballbeater1

[sundaypins]

The discussion starts here.  A name for a new drink at the 19th hole is 'Three Caddies'.  

 

 

[virtuoso]

6 minutes ago, sundaypins said:

The discussion starts here.  A name for a new drink at the 19th hole is 'Three Caddies'.  

 

 

Wow, that was a bad explanation.

[MonteScheinblum]

Even elite young players copy the latest trend.

 

Cary Middlecoff was said to have the swing of the future by driving knees toward the target.

 

Nicklaus, Watson, Weiskopf, Kite….and Miller all did it and had great success but had physical issues later in life.  
 

IMO proof you can teach an elite player and hard worker about anything and they will still succeed, but the masses need to stay away from flavor of the month…..which today involves excess rotation and side bend.

[MonteScheinblum]

You could make a case Watson was more a disciple of Nelson.

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Even elite young players copy the latest trend.

 

Cary Middlecoff was said to have the swing of the future by driving knees toward the target.

 

Nicklaus, Watson, Weiskopf, Kite….and Miller all did it and had great success but had physical issues later in life.  
 

IMO proof you can teach an elite player and hard worker about anything and they will still succeed, but the masses need to stay away from flavor of the month…..which today involves excess rotation and side bend.

How can an informed member of the masses ensure they're doing things that are fundamentally sound and not just fads? There are classic, seemingly timeless swing mechanics along with old methods that have fallen out of favor. But there are new methods that could be detrimental, but arise in an age where we can measure much more about the function of the swing than in the past. How do the masses learn to distinguish these things?

[GoGoErky]

23 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

How can an informed member of the masses ensure they're doing things that are fundamentally sound and not just fads? There are classic, seemingly timeless swing mechanics along with old methods that have fallen out of favor. But there are new methods that could be detrimental, but arise in an age where we can measure much more about the function of the swing than in the past. How do the masses learn to distinguish these things?

If they are informed that would somewhat suggest they know what the fundamentals are and what the fads are. 
 

Due the measurements we have we can tell what swings from the past were something that a good player made work even if not fundamentally correct Ala the reverse C or the X factor. 
 

Also since we have the data and measurements study that data to understand what it shows, thankfully we have Athletic Motion Golf that posts the data and discusses in videos and puts out other content about what one should be doing in their swing and what they shouldn’t based on the data.

 

an added bonus is if the informed person is a member on wrx they have Monte and Erik who share their knowledge. All someone has to do is read and learn from what is posted

Edited July 12 by GoGoErky

[MonteScheinblum]

23 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

How can an informed member of the masses ensure they're doing things that are fundamentally sound and not just fads? There are classic, seemingly timeless swing mechanics along with old methods that have fallen out of favor. But there are new methods that could be detrimental, but arise in an age where we can measure much more about the function of the swing than in the past. How do the masses learn to distinguish these things?

Listen to smart people.

 

Dalquist, Como, AMG, Blackburn, Rose. People that find commonalities among great players and study how it affects the body.  
 

Don’t listen to those that claim knowledge, misread data, and pull 💩 out of thin air because it seems to work for them.

[sundaypins]

38 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

How can an informed member of the masses ensure they're doing things that are fundamentally sound and not just fads?

 

One could deep dive into the game from its beginning forward.  It's quite revealing and worth the extra time because it provides a foundation for knowing and examining the differences between the science of a golf swing and the art of hitting a golf ball.     Being subject to your own diligence is a good place to start.

[Ballbeater1]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Even elite young players copy the latest trend.

 

Cary Middlecoff was said to have the swing of the future by driving knees toward the target.

 

Nicklaus, Watson, Weiskopf, Kite….and Miller all did it and had great success but had physical issues later in life.  
 

IMO proof you can teach an elite player and hard worker about anything and they will still succeed, but the masses need to stay away from flavor of the month…..which today involves excess rotation and side bend.

Did moe Norman drive his knees toward the target as well ?

[golferdude54]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You could make a case Watson was more a disciple of Nelson.

Which is kinda ironic because Byron’s finish position was pretty dang straight up and down, more so than Hogan was.
 

Sure he had the reverse C look well after impact with the head behind and driving knees but he never finished that way like players in the 70’s.

[joedizzy1978]

3 hours ago, Ballbeater1 said:

Can anyone explain the reverse C ? It definitely seems like a finish from yesteryear doesn’t seem like its in style anymore , why was it so popular in the 70’s … et Jonny miller etc , what was the concept behind it , what caused it , what was the point of it? Did they believe it was doing something ?

Spine extension is necessary in golf swings. Many good things in golf can be underutilized or in the case of "reverse c", overdone.  If your head finishes in the center of your stance, with the spine extended (head slightly behind trail hip), you'll be ok.....head finishing over your trail foot is probably not good for your physical health.  Figured I'd give you some boundaries before you start thinking head closer to target than lead foot in the finish is a good thing. 

[naval2006]

A lot of young golfers took after Johnny Millers marvelous swing. Starting the downswing with the hips, coming from behind, head behind the ball. Too timing and coordination based. But as cool and beautiful as you could get. 

[cardoustie]

Johnny was the best iron player in the game for almost 10 years, learning point … spine extension

[RayPlan]

10 hours ago, joedizzy1978 said:

Spine extension is necessary in golf swings. Many good things in golf can be underutilized or in the case of "reverse c", overdone.  If your head finishes in the center of your stance, with the spine extended (head slightly behind trail hip), you'll be ok.....head finishing over your trail foot is probably not good for your physical health.  Figured I'd give you some boundaries before you start thinking head closer to target than lead foot in the finish is a good thing. 

 

What would Miller have needed to do to change to avoid the reverse-C finish?

 

 

 

Is it simply allowing his head to move up and toward the targer, along for the ride with the rest of his body?

[sundaypins]

14 hours ago, Ballbeater1 said:

Did moe Norman drive his knees toward the target as well ?

 

As Moe would say 'Suure, and lowered too, lowered too'.  

[sundaypins]

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

What would Miller have needed to do to change to avoid the reverse-C finish?

 

Basically change the mix from primary lateral to primary rotational.  

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, sundaypins said:

 

Basically change the mix from primary lateral to primary rotational.  

Since miller has an awesome pelvis movement, and canceling upper body hang back is more sternum (after it’s all over at impact), wouldn’t it be a matter of the opposite? IE, sternum goes more lateral from P8 to P10 to stand up the finish.

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, RayPlan said:

 

What would Miller have needed to do to change to avoid the reverse-C finish?

 

 

 

Is it simply allowing his head to move up and toward the targer, along for the ride with the rest of his body?

 

You'll need to explain that one.

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

You'll need to explain that one.

I don’t see how the explanation can be much simpler.

[MK7Golf21]

24 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Since miller has an awesome pelvis movement, and canceling upper body hang back is more sternum (after it’s all over at impact), wouldn’t it be a matter of the opposite? IE, sternum goes more lateral from P8 to P10 to stand up the finish.

Yeah, this is a big part of it. Also, I think the backswing might have to be a bit more rounded/shallow, nothing drastic though. Miller, Nicklaus had pretty vertical arm swings and the reverse C shallowed it out. 

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I don’t see how the explanation can be much simpler.

Simple? Yes.

 

All there is to it? Happy to hear the explanation.

[virtuoso]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Simple? Yes.

 

All there is to it? Happy to hear the explanation.

Release the head and shoulders up into a more vertical finish after the ball is gone.

 

Don’t do anything before the ball, because the guy was an unbelievable ball striker.

[MK7Golf21]

Look at Jason Day, all those people saying his old reverse c wasn’t hurting his back. I never really bought into that, was def. part of it along with restricting hip turn. 

 

Como got his hips turning more freely which shallowed out the backswing. Also, got him shallowing his arms instead of using his upper body. The hands being a little deeper allowed all those changes to happen. 

[Shilgy]

Where is @Christosterone when we need him?

[joedizzy1978]

5 hours ago, RayPlan said:

What would Miller have needed to do to change to avoid the reverse-C finish?

 
I would start with where his COM is relatively to his feet at p4, less towards his lead.....which would diminish the need for the reverse C.  I believe his reverse C was necessary to counteract a p4 that would normally produce low dynamic loft. 

Edited July 13 by joedizzy1978

[joedizzy1978]

 

Misread what you wrote and thought you said dont change the backswing....remarked that with Miller's p4, he'd likely look like Sergio p4-p10 without the reverse C

56 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

 

Edited July 13 by joedizzy1978

[sundaypins]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Since miller has an awesome pelvis movement, and canceling upper body hang back is more sternum (after it’s all over at impact), wouldn’t it be a matter of the opposite? IE, sternum goes more lateral from P8 to P10 to stand up the finish.

 

I'm only partially fluent in English and marginally fluent in ancient Sumerian language.  What is IE?  Internet Explorer?

[Hawkeye77]

26 minutes ago, sundaypins said:

 

I'm only partially fluent in English and marginally fluent in ancient Sumerian language.  What is IE?  Internet Explorer?

Try “i.e.”. 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, sundaypins said:

 

I'm only partially fluent in English and marginally fluent in ancient Sumerian language.  What is IE?  Internet Explorer?

Pretty close.