Are Match-Play Penalties Applied Immediately, Or After Completion Of Hole?

[EmperorPenguin]

I mentioned this in another thread.  Suppose I am dormie in a match and all I need to do is halve a hole to win.  A sinister way to win the match is to ask for friendly advice and hopefully my opponent will answer. 

 

"Which way will this putt break?"

"It will break to the right about a foot, but it plays slower than it looks."

 

Because the Rules prohibit seeking as well as giving advice, both of us would be penalized by loss of hole.  I asked, which is a penalty, and he answered, which is also a penalty.  So being dormie we both lost the hole, which is essentially a halve, so my opponent is closed out.  There is a discussion that would imply that because I asked first, that penalty is applied immediately and I lost the hole, regardless if he answered or not.  True?

Edited July 15 by EmperorPenguin

[Mr. Bean]

This was already answered in the other thread.

 

The one who breaches the Rule first loses the hole, and it is the hole being played.

[Tiger_Stud]

Besides the question being answered already, someone even thinking winning this way makes him a big time AH!

[Augster]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

This was already answered in the other thread.

 

The one who breaches the Rule first loses the hole, and it is the hole being played.

This. 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Tiger_Stud said:

Besides the question being answered already, someone even thinking winning this way makes him a big time AH!

 

He's been here a looooong time,,,,,,,,, 

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I mentioned this in another thread.  Suppose I am dormie in a match and all I need to do is halve a hole to win.  A sinister way to win the match is to ask for friendly advice and hopefully my opponent will answer. 

 

"Which way will this putt break?"

"It will break to the right about a foot, but it plays slower than it looks."

 

Because the Rules prohibit seeking as well as giving advice, both of us would be penalized by loss of hole.  I asked, which is a penalty, and he answered, which is also a penalty.  So being dormie we both lost the hole, which is essentially a halve, so my opponent is closed out.  There is a discussion that would imply that because I asked first, that penalty is applied immediately and I lost the hole, regardless if he answered or not.  True?

The answer was given in the other thread - no reason for another. A silly idea to even entertain, trying to induce another player to break a rule. 

[Newby]

6 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

There is a discussion that would imply that because I asked first, that penalty is applied immediately and I lost the hole, regardless if he answered or not.  True?

Yes.

Can't you read?

[davep043]

This is simple, ANY General Penalty immediately ends the hole in Match Play.  Advice, Wrong Place, Wrong Ball, setting down an object to aim at, just to name a few.  

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

This is simple, ANY General Penalty immediately ends the hole in Match Play.  Advice, Wrong Place, Wrong Ball, setting down an object to aim at, just to name a few.  

Right!  Go to the next tee, "Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200" 😀

[antip]

9 hours ago, Tiger_Stud said:

Besides the question being answered already, someone even thinking winning this way makes him a big time AH!

I understand the sentiment but occasionally see some bizarre behaviours in match play, often influenced by limited understanding of the rules. I have no issue whatsoever with someone asking hypotheticals on a rules site, even if the actions reek of poor sportsmanship. Multiple forms of outright cheating (eg foot wedge and hands on ball without justification) and handicap manipulation are more prevalent problems.

[nsxguy]

On 7/15/2025 at 10:25 AM, EmperorPenguin said:

I mentioned this in another thread.  Suppose I am dormie in a match and all I need to do is halve a hole to win.  A sinister way to win the match is to ask for friendly advice and hopefully my opponent will answer. 

 

"Which way will this putt break?"

"It will break to the right about a foot, but it plays slower than it looks."

 

Because the Rules prohibit seeking as well as giving advice, both of us would be penalized by loss of hole.  I asked, which is a penalty, and he answered, which is also a penalty.  So being dormie we both lost the hole, which is essentially a halve, so my opponent is closed out.  There is a discussion that would imply that because I asked first, that penalty is applied immediately and I lost the hole, regardless if he answered or not.  True?

 

This (below) is from the other thread of yours.

 

Did you think you'd get different answers here ?

 

[szaino]

On 7/15/2025 at 6:27 PM, davep043 said:

This is simple, ANY General Penalty immediately ends the hole in Match Play.  Advice, Wrong Place, Wrong Ball, setting down an object to aim at, just to name a few.  

 

Good to know this.

For team match play though -  A and B against C and D, I don't think all penalties apply to the team, some only to the individual player.  So the hole is played out.

Just tried to find this in the rules but couldn't.

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, szaino said:

 

Good to know this.

For team match play though -  A and B against C and D, I don't think all penalties apply to the team, some only to the individual player.  So the hole is played out.

Just tried to find this in the rules but couldn't.

 

Look in Rule 23.9 for Fourball Match Play.  As you say, generally its only the player involved who gets the General Penalty, his score cannot count for the Side on that Hole.  There are a few situations where the GP is applied to the Side:

Quote

(2) Three Situations Where Player’s Penalty Also Applies to Partner.
When Player Breaches Rule 4.1b (Limit of 14 Clubs; Shared, Added or Replaced Clubs). In match play, the side gets the penalty (adjustment of the match score); in stroke play, the partner also gets the same penalty as the player.

When Player’s Breach Helps Partner’s Play. In either match play or stroke play, the partner also gets the same penalty as the player.

In Match Play, When Player’s Breach Hurts Opponent’s Play. The partner also gets the same penalty as the player.

 

[szaino]

On 7/22/2025 at 4:57 PM, davep043 said:

Look in Rule 23.9 for Fourball Match Play.  As you say, generally its only the player involved who gets the General Penalty, his score cannot count for the Side on that Hole.  There are a few situations where the GP is applied to the Side:

 

thanks for the reference. I had kept looking and finally found it.

[rogolf]

On 7/22/2025 at 12:13 PM, szaino said:

 

Good to know this.

For team match play though -  A and B against C and D, I don't think all penalties apply to the team, some only to the individual player.  So the hole is played out.

Just tried to find this in the rules but couldn't.

 

Perhaps a bit pedantic, but what you have described is fourball match play, not team play.  A and B are playing together as a side, not a team.  Rules for team play are quite different and are in Rule 24.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Perhaps a bit pedantic, but what you have described is fourball match play, not team play.  A and B are playing together as a side, not a team.  Rules for team play are quite different and are in Rule 24.

Absolutely correct, and the use of the right terms would have made a search for the rule a lot easier for @szaino.  But many people never learn the correct terminology.

[szaino]

18 hours ago, rogolf said:

Perhaps a bit pedantic, but what you have described is fourball match play, not team play.  A and B are playing together as a side, not a team.  Rules for team play are quite different and are in Rule 24.

 

Unfortunately, the USGA rules are overly complicated. Almost every thread on this forum becomes pedantic to the average golfer.  

 

I don't think I used incorrect terminology in my example as it relates to this thread. Team rules in 24, outside of having a captain and dealing with giving advice, have nothing to do with how penalties may be enforced differently. 

 

My example was a team match play. The only pertinent info for this thread is that it is "match play." Teams may be made up of sides, a four ball is also made up of sides.  Penalties may be enforced differently based upon whether it is stroke play or match play but whether the side is part of a larger team or not, I don't believe, changes "how" penalties are enforced.

Edited July 24 by szaino
clarity

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, szaino said:

Unfortunately, the USGA rules are overly complicated. Almost every thread on this forum becomes pedantic to the average golfer.  

 

Have you ever seen the Rule book for other sports ?

 

The only real difference is all the other sports have officials at the event making all the calls, whereas in golf, the players are expected to know the Rules and, in most instances, apply them properly themselves.

 

Average (most ?) golfers know very few rules and care not at all. Only about (roughly) 1 in 8 keep a handicap and presumably play BY the rules. The other 87% couldn't care less.

 

But for golfers who play in "events", where they can be penalized or DQ'd whether they knew the rule or not ? They better know the rules AND the terminology.

 

So, "pedantic" ? Maybe, but for very good reasons imo. 

[davep043]

2 hours ago, szaino said:

My example was a team match play.

Sorry, but your example was Fourball match play.  You used the phrase "A and B against C and D" which means either Foursomes or Fourball, but not necessarily a Team competition unless that Match is one of a number of matches.  And reading the rest of your question, it seemed obvious that you meant Fourball, because in Foursomes a General Penalty is applied against the Side, not against one of the Partners.  Fourball was the specific term you needed to get to Rule 23 dealing with Fourball play. 

For my personal interest, I did a search for "better ball penalty" in the USGA rules website, since many people use the term "better ball" for Fourball play.  The first item that came up was

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2024/05/rules-guide-four-ball.html

At least that might have got you to Rule 23.

[Newby]

Side

Two or more partners competing as a single unit in a round in match play or stroke play.

Each set of partners is a side, whether each partner plays their own ball (Four-Ball) or the partners play one ball (Foursomes).

A side is not the same as a team. In a team competition, each team consists of players competing as individuals or as sides.