Grant Horvat not playing in the Barracuda

[TiScape]

1 hour ago, TheOverratedPhotog said:

I think people are vastly underestimating the situation. The guy isn't a narcissist as some have claimed. He is a golfer and a businessman. Not just a businessman, a very successful one at that, I'm guessing the guy is earning in excess of $5 million a year. The guy is a big enough name to be snagging videos with Tiger and Rory doing the kinds of things he is doing now. People will argue that the PGA is doing him a favour but let's be realistic here, Grant isn't winning a PGA event any time in the near future so what is in it for him? He’s probably going to go out and miss a cut, so what is the PGA offering him other than an opportunity to experience something most people dream about. At this point he’s playing the duels with Rahm, Bryson and Phil so I'm guessing playing with some of the best isn't as big a deal as it once was.

 

So, I think he's right to ask for exclusions. He isn't going to post a video live which is when the prime viewership is being experienced for the PGA. It’s going to get cut and edited for days before it gets posted, but what it will do is change the landscape of media rights the next time they get negotiated, so allowances are made for YouTube golfers. He may not get what he wants now, but he will get it in future.

 

A lot of people will say the PGA doesn't need youtubers, but the next generation of golfers don't watch PGA events. At my course, there is a generation of golfers who haven't watched a televised PGA event ever, but they watch heaps of youtube golf. It’s sad, but the younger generation are different to us. Television rights only mean something if people are watching and the numbers are reducing.

 

Specific Examples:

 

• The final round of the PGA Houston Open was down significantly from previous years, including a 34% drop from 2015. 
• The 2025 PGA Championship first round average viewership dropped under 1 million, after years of being above that mark. 
• Round 3 of the 2025 PGA Championship was down 12% from 2024, and the first two rounds also saw decreases. 

Grant Horvat is currently get 15-16 million views a month. Let that sink in. The problem with the way we look at golf is that we look at who is best, and we think that's entertainment. The next generation want their golf to be entertaining, friendly banter between golfers, and the likes of Wyndham Clark isn't making the PGA any easier to watch.

 

Well, now we know Grant’s dad is a member of WRX and presumably a photographer! 📸 

 

 

 

 

*just kiddin’ TOP! Thanks for the well thought out post 😊

[MountainKing]

32 minutes ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

And I guess that’s the double edge sword of this kinda stuff. The tour extends an invite to a guy who positions himself as and “elite” golfer, who monetized his skills in a different way…all for him to say no, and place the blame on the tour for not allowing him to monetize this particular version of golf.  
 

The MP3 example is great. I don’t think the tour ever thought this through past giving the exemption, and when he asked to film the event, it spooked them and they said absolutely not. Saying yes to filming could have been their Pandoras Box, and destroyed their stranglehold on the media rights. 

 

I think there's a way to make it work for both sides, and there's an opportunity for the PGA Tour to possibly start taking what is already out there and using it potentially to their advantage.  Who knows what that looks like, but the tournament wanting him, and him saying "thanks, no thanks" because he isn't to do his thing, IMO speaks volumes on who has the power. 

[bscinstnct]

29 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

Social media, YouTube, the internet in general — are all related. The way people consume content has changed.

 

its not just on TV now, it’s on the phone. It’s on the computer. 
 

this is only going to increase.

 

the argument that YouTube/Internet golf is not important gets dumber every day. 

 

 

Start with the content.

 

Let’s take a pga tour event. It can be watched on tv or streamed. Or highlights can be watched on YouTube.
 

How does Horvat or any influencer increase viewership of this content?

 

His viewers watch his content. They go seek it out right?

 

They can watch pga tour events, and his followers either do or don’t watch on tv or the network streams. 

 

Edited July 16 by bscinstnct

[Frank Newport]

5 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

It's like anything in life - not everybody is going to be successful at it, much like somebody trying to make it on tour, but even low level success in content creation is more likely and easier to make money doing than it is being a nobody on tour grinding week after week.    

 

Also—thinking this is just a trend is a mistake that a lot of older folks, likely including some PGAT leadership, are making. YouTubers have been around for 20 years (even longer if you count the pre-YouTube internet), and in the last 5 or so, they've really taken off in the golf world. The audience is only growing year over year.  You don't necessarily need talent, there's plenty of succesful youtube hacks that are heavily monetized. 

 

In 10 years, it might evolve or take a different form, but it's not a passing trend, and it's not going anywhere. Dismissing it as such is a huge misstep. The kids who are obsessed with this YouTube golf content aren't going to suddenly shift in five years and start consuming golf the way most of us over 40 do.  

 

"but even low level success in content creation is more likely and easier to make money doing than it is being a nobody on tour grinding week after week"

- Don't assume this. The average (#76) PGA tour golfer has made $1.7 million already this year on the course. 

 

"YouTubers have been around for 20 years (even longer if you count the pre-YouTube internet), and in the last 5 or so, they've really taken off in the golf world"

- Who were the successful YouTube golf influencers the previous 15 years?

[Pnwpingi210]

Can someone tell me what the pga tour gains from letting Horvat film?

 

their a for profit business and just because you get more eyeballs on your product doesn’t mean it translates to dollars, since all eyeballs aren’t created equal in a business sense

Edited July 16 by Pnwpingi210

[BSI99]

2 hours ago, TheOverratedPhotog said:

I think people are vastly underestimating the situation. The guy isn't a narcissist as some have claimed. He is a golfer and a businessman. Not just a businessman, a very successful one at that, I'm guessing the guy is earning in excess of $5 million a year. The guy is a big enough name to be snagging videos with Tiger and Rory doing the kinds of things he is doing now. People will argue that the PGA is doing him a favour but let's be realistic here, Grant isn't winning a PGA event any time in the near future so what is in it for him? He’s probably going to go out and miss a cut, so what is the PGA offering him other than an opportunity to experience something most people dream about. At this point he’s playing the duels with Rahm, Bryson and Phil so I'm guessing playing with some of the best isn't as big a deal as it once was.

 

So, I think he's right to ask for exclusions. He isn't going to post a video live which is when the prime viewership is being experienced for the PGA. It’s going to get cut and edited for days before it gets posted, but what it will do is change the landscape of media rights the next time they get negotiated, so allowances are made for YouTube golfers. He may not get what he wants now, but he will get it in future.

 

A lot of people will say the PGA doesn't need youtubers, but the next generation of golfers don't watch PGA events. At my course, there is a generation of golfers who haven't watched a televised PGA event ever, but they watch heaps of youtube golf. It’s sad, but the younger generation are different to us. Television rights only mean something if people are watching and the numbers are reducing.

 

Specific Examples:

 

• The final round of the PGA Houston Open was down significantly from previous years, including a 34% drop from 2015. 
• The 2025 PGA Championship first round average viewership dropped under 1 million, after years of being above that mark. 
• Round 3 of the 2025 PGA Championship was down 12% from 2024, and the first two rounds also saw decreases. 

Grant Horvat is currently get 15-16 million views a month. Let that sink in. The problem with the way we look at golf is that we look at who is best, and we think that's entertainment. The next generation want their golf to be entertaining, friendly banter between golfers, and the likes of Wyndham Clark isn't making the PGA any easier to watch.

 

Most watched Masters in 7 years

Players up 3%

John deere ratings up 32%

Travelers up 35%

RBC up 62%

Signature events as a whole up

 

Objectively numbers are not decreasing. You also realize the PGA championship isn't put on by the PGA tour right? Those aren't Tour viewership numbers and have nothing to do with the Tour's TV deal.

[dcmidnight]

17 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

Who were the successful YouTube golf influencers the previous 15 years?

 

Arent there two different questions to come out of this?

 

1 - Who have been "successful" golf influencers - meaning personal financial success, and I'd argue there are more than a few of them. But 

 

2 - Who of these have turned that into "second level" wealth, meaning hiring that person has been financially successful for the company that hired them.

 

LIV has a lot of popular YT creators. Love him or not, Phil puts out some really good stuff. Bryson. Rick Shiels. Grant. So - does picking up "views" from all those fans who allegedly dont watch golf any other way, is that a financially good thing for anyone other than the content creator?

 

I cant say for sure but I'd lean towards no.

Edited July 16 by dcmidnight

[MountainKing]

5 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

 

"but even low level success in content creation is more likely and easier to make money doing than it is being a nobody on tour grinding week after week"

- Don't assume this. The average (#76) PGA tour golfer has made $1.7 million already this year on the course. 

 

"YouTubers have been around for 20 years (even longer if you count the pre-YouTube internet), and in the last 5 or so, they've really taken off in the golf world"

- Who were the successful YouTube golf influencers the previous 15 years?

 

If you're in the top 100 - you're not in that low level.  $1.7 in earnings on tour also isn't that much when you start taking in what it costs to survive on tour with travel, taxes and the expense of having a team around you.    The guys I'm talking about tho are guys who are struggling year after year going broke to try and keep a card. 

 

 

Re-read that quote - I'll break it down better in case you struggle with english.

 

Youtube has been around for 20 years.  

Content creators have been around for 20+ years in other aspects of life that are not golf related

Content creation in the golf world hasn't really taken off until the last 5 years

 

As far as golf specific, just because you weren't aware of them, doesn't mean there weren't guys out there doing it and making a name.  Everything starts somewhere.  Golf was probably 10 years late to the party.  Some of the early guys tho:

 

Rick Sheils and Mark Crossfield I think both started back in 2010.  

Me and My Golf I think started not long after those two.

TXG has been putting content out there for probably 10 years now.

Garret, who eventually ended up on Good Good, has been on youtube for many years prior to Good Good.  

 

 

 

[Frank Newport]

Too many people see these huge subscriber numbers and assume the creator is cleaning up. Some of them are and most of them are just putting off sitting in a cubicle for as long as possible.

 

A lot of influencers get paid in free merchandise/experiences and never see an actual dollar from some of the companies they promote. "Influencing" is not as easy and lucrative as many believe and plenty of "successful' content creators have revealed the truth behind the numbers. Just search for it. You'd be surprised how expensive and time consuming creating content is and how little they actually get paid.

[Mr.Cleeks]

1 hour ago, 5 O'Clock Charlie said:

Yea I think a You Tube golfer should get a spot over someone cutting their teeth out there every week who actually needs the start to maybe help their season and career.  Call me old fashioned.

Can you give an actual example of who's spot Grant would've taken? All the big guns are teeing it up at The Open and the Barracuda is gonna have 100 PGAT players + 50 DPWT players. By my count nearly every player with some form of status on tour is teeing it up this week.

[MountainKing]

12 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Can someone tell me what the pga tour gains from letting Horvat film?

 

their a for profit business and just because you get more eyeballs on your product doesn’t mean it translates to dollars, since all eyeballs aren’t created equal in a business sense

 

I'm not 100% sure that first question has a great answer today - I don't think they really gain anything immediately other than showing they're a partner into that world.  Who knows what the future holds, youtube golf world could die tomorrow, or it could become the way all golf is consumed by the future fan, and where all the sponsors go with their money, or something in between each extreme..  If it is the later, they could look at moments like this to where they had a chance to get in on it, and they elected not to.  Refusing to be forward thinking until it's too late has been the death of many companies.....  Blockbuster?  

[The Couv]

Did he film all his play in the Creator Classic he won?  I think there are other reasons at play here, but I won’t miss watching him miss the cut at Barracuda.

[TiScape]

18 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

*Can someone tell me what the pga tour gains from letting Horvat film?

 

their a for profit business and just because you get more eyeballs on your product doesn’t mean it translates to dollars, since all eyeballs aren’t created equal in a business sense

Tons of middle school kids that don’t posses the attention span to watch actual golf for more than ~8min! 

[TiScape]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Cleeks said:

Can you give an actual example of *who's spot Grant would've taken? All the big guns are teeing it up at The Open and the Barracuda is gonna have 100 PGAT players + 50 DPWT players. By my count nearly every player with some form of status on tour is teeing it up this week.

The other SM golfer guy w/the man bun??? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[MountainKing]

6 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

Too many people see these huge subscriber numbers and assume the creator is cleaning up. Some of them are and most of them are just putting off sitting in a cubicle for as long as possible.

 

A lot of influencers get paid in free merchandise/experiences and never see an actual dollar from some of the companies they promote. "Influencing" is not as easy and lucrative as many believe and plenty of "successful' content creators have revealed the truth behind the numbers. Just search for it. You'd be surprised how expensive and time consuming creating content is and how little they actually get paid.

 

 

Grants making $4-5 million a year just in content alone, nevermind sponsor money.  If that's not cleaning up, I don't know what is.  

 

A lot of the lesser known guys are still making well into the 6 figures, traveling free of charge and playing golf for a living.  Even if the end result is a desk job in 10 years - who cares?   The PGA tour average of 1.7 million is not a lot of money when you break down how expensive it is to play on tour as a nobody, and it's not anything they can live off of if they lose their card, so yeah end result there would also be a desk job.  

[BSI99]

5 minutes ago, The Couv said:

Did he film all his play in the Creator Classic he won?  I think there are other reasons at play here, but I won’t miss watching him miss the cut at Barracuda.

No laying up has a video of every one of their shots from the Classic. Probably different rules than a normal tour event though

[Hawkeye77]

9 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Tons of middle school kids that don’t posses the attention span to watch actual golf for more than ~8min! 

I can't even get through a lot of the posts on here!

[TiScape]

15 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

 

Grants making $4-5 million a year just in content alone, nevermind sponsor money.  If that's not cleaning up, I don't know what is.  

 

A lot of the lesser known guys are still making well into the 6 figures, traveling free of charge and playing golf for a living.  Even if the end result is a desk job in 10 years - who cares?   The PGA tour average of 1.7 million is not a lot of money when you break down how expensive it is to play on tour as a nobody, and it's not anything they can live off of if they lose their card, so yeah end result there would also be a desk job.  

 “playing golf for a living”. Ppl thinking that being an influencer is easy money. Imagine having to wake up every day and document ur life. Constantly having to create new, “exciting” content. Knowing there are millions of teens out there with their eyes set on taking ur place… It’s not hanging drywall by any means. But also not the “dream” most think it is. 
 

SM influencer… Hard pass for me dawg

[PZero]

I get it.

 

This is exactly why I won't play on the PGA Tour too.

[Frank Newport]

5 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

If you're in the top 100 - you're not in that low level.  $1.7 in earnings on tour also isn't that much when you start taking in what it costs to survive on tour with travel, taxes and the expense of having a team around you.    The guys I'm talking about tho are guys who are struggling year after year going broke to try and keep a card. 

 

 

Re-read that quote - I'll break it down better in case you struggle with english.

 

Youtube has been around for 20 years.  

Content creators have been around for 20+ years in other aspects of life that are not golf related

Content creation in the golf world hasn't really taken off until the last 5 years

 

As far as golf specific, just because you weren't aware of them, doesn't mean there weren't guys out there doing it and making a name.  Everything starts somewhere.  Golf was probably 10 years late to the party.  Some of the early guys tho:

 

Rick Sheils and Mark Crossfield I think both started back in 2010.  

Me and My Golf I think started not long after those two.

TXG has been putting content out there for probably 10 years now.

Garret, who eventually ended up on Good Good, has been on youtube for many years prior to Good Good.  

 

 

 

 

English isn't my strong suit. Math is so I'll break it down for you with numbers.

It costs a PGA Tour member about $200,000-$300,000 to play 30+ tournaments in a season. $1.4 million is double the salary ($700k) it takes to be in the top 1% of earners in the U.S.

That's not including whatever sponsorship deals these gentlemen have. 

 

Guys who are struggling to keep their tour card aren't going to be able to just pivot to content creation seamlessly. It' harder to be entertaining than you assume. Just go to amateur night at your local comedy club. You'll see.

 

Golf content creation and golf, in general, exploded 5 years ago. Try to think about what was going on 5 years ago that made golf and content viewing so popular. I'll give you a hint, its related to Covid. 

 

None of those guys peaked before 2020 and most of them were nobodies. Rick Shiels had ~720k subscribers on January 1st, 2020. Considering that most of his viewers likely skip ads, he likely wasn't making $1.4 million after costs.

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

And I guess that’s the double edge sword of this kinda stuff. The tour extends an invite to a guy who positions himself as and “elite” golfer, who monetized his skills in a different way…all for him to say no, and place the blame on the tour for not allowing him to monetize this particular version of golf.  
 

The MP3 example is great. I don’t think the tour ever thought this through past giving the exemption, and when he asked to film the event, it spooked them and they said absolutely not. Saying yes to filming could have been their Pandoras Box, and destroyed their stranglehold on the media rights. 

 

Let's be factual, the PGAT didn't extend Grant Horvat an invitation to play in the Barracuda Championship, it was a sponsor invite.

 

He declined because the PGAT doesn't allow the filming of its content. The media rights were exclusively sold to CBS, NBC, ESPN, and Golf Channel.

[Frank Newport]

41 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Arent there two different questions to come out of this?

 

1 - Who have been "successful" golf influencers - meaning personal financial success, and I'd argue there are more than a few of them. But 

 

2 - Who of these have turned that into "second level" wealth, meaning hiring that person has been financially successful for the company that hired them.

 

LIV has a lot of popular YT creators. Love him or not, Phil puts out some really good stuff. Bryson. Rick Shiels. Grant. So - does picking up "views" from all those fans who allegedly dont watch golf any other way, is that a financially good thing for anyone other than the content creator?

 

I cant say for sure but I'd lean towards no.

 

1. I agree.

 

2. This is where things get complicated and very few, if any, people actually no the answer. I don't take the tv ratings people post about the PGA Tour and LIV tour at face value. They are only a part of the story and maybe even a very small part of it. Its like the old saying "50% of advertising is effective and 50% is a total waste of money. We just don't know which is which." Are influencers creating value for the Tours? Maybe, but not likely much. 

[MountainKing]

20 minutes ago, TiScape said:

 “playing golf for a living”. Ppl thinking that being an influencer is easy money. Imagine having to wake up every day and document ur life. Constantly having to create new, “exciting” content. Knowing there are millions of teens out there with their eyes set on taking ur place… It’s not hanging drywall by any means. But also not the “dream” most think it is. 
 

SM influencer… Hard pass for me dawg

 

Never said it was easy money, or if I did I probably didn't spell out that it's a much easier living than trying to play - these influencers work harder than most imagine, and like anything at some point it's a job for them.  With that, if you're coming out of college and wanting to make money playing golf, and you're staring down grinding away on mini tours, Monday qualifiers and q school vs trying out the Youtube thing......   There's more ways than ever to make money from golf without having to beat yourself up on the range and tournament after tournament.   

[Frank Newport]

One of the AskGolfNut guys is a member on here. I'd love to hear take on the content creation industry. 

[TiScape]

10 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Never said it was easy money, or if I did I probably didn't spell out that it's a much easier living than trying to play - these influencers work harder than most imagine, and like anything at some point it's a job for them.  With that, if you're coming out of college and wanting to make money playing golf, and you're staring down grinding away on mini tours, Monday qualifiers and q school vs trying out the Youtube thing......   There's more ways than ever to make money from golf without having to beat yourself up on the range and tournament after tournament.   

For me it’s been watching videos and simply responding/reacting to them. Who woulda ever thought that could provide a decent ancillary income stream. Gotta love it. 

The whole golf thing just seemed like too much work to me. 

Edited July 16 by TiScape

[MountainKing]

20 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

 

English isn't my strong suit. Math is so I'll break it down for you with numbers.

It costs a PGA Tour member about $200,000-$300,000 to play 30+ tournaments in a season. $1.4 million is double the salary ($700k) it takes to be in the top 1% of earners in the U.S.

That's not including whatever sponsorship deals these gentlemen have. 

 

Guys who are struggling to keep their tour card aren't going to be able to just pivot to content creation seamlessly. It' harder to be entertaining than you assume. Just go to amateur night at your local comedy club. You'll see.

 

Golf content creation and golf, in general, exploded 5 years ago. Try to think about what was going on 5 years ago that made golf and content viewing so popular. I'll give you a hint, its related to Covid. 

 

None of those guys peaked before 2020 and most of them were nobodies. Rick Shiels had ~720k subscribers on January 1st, 2020. Considering that most of his viewers likely skip ads, he likely wasn't making $1.4 million after costs.

 

 

The pandemic accelerated a lot of things.  You can be in denial about it, but golf content is here and it's not a trend.  As you pointed out, it's had a slow uptick for many years and now we're seeing the results of how compounding numbers over time works.   Even if it dies off with a generation that still isn't born, it's not going to be an overnight drop, just like it wasn't an overnight success.  Youtube golf is here and it's going to be a thing for many years, and based on how the younger folks operate, it's probably going to eventually be THE thing.   If you were running the PGA Tour - why you wouldn't want to get in on that is beyond me, but it seems like a foolish business decision to turn it away.  

 

 

[Frank Newport]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

 

 

Grants making $4-5 million a year just in content alone, nevermind sponsor money.  If that's not cleaning up, I don't know what is.  

 

A lot of the lesser known guys are still making well into the 6 figures, traveling free of charge and playing golf for a living.  Even if the end result is a desk job in 10 years - who cares?   The PGA tour average of 1.7 million is not a lot of money when you break down how expensive it is to play on tour as a nobody, and it's not anything they can live off of if they lose their card, so yeah end result there would also be a desk job.  

 

Where did you get that $4-5 million figure from?

 

Where are you getting the information that lesser known influencers are making those kinds of numbers?

 

If I was in my 20s, I'd live paycheck to paycheck too if I could play golf everyday, but that's not relevant. I'm claiming that very few influencers make anywhere near what a PGA Tour Pro makes.

[MountainKing]

8 minutes ago, TiScape said:

For me it’s been watching videos and simply responding/reacting to them. Who woulda ever thought that could provide a decent ancillary income stream. Gotta love it. 

The whole golf thing just seemed like too much work to me. 

 

As somebody who tried to make money in golf, and has been an investor in content creation (not in the golf world but I am kicking myself at missing a few opportunities there), my golf earnings is in the red, my investment in content on the other hand has been some of the best returns I've seen on the dollar.   It is absolutely a wild world we live in right now. 

[MountainKing]

Just now, Frank Newport said:

 

Where did you get that $4-5 million figure from?

 

Where are you getting the information that lesser known influencers are making those kinds of numbers?

 

If I was in my 20s, I'd live paycheck to paycheck too if I could play golf everyday, but that's not relevant. I'm claiming that very few influencers make anywhere near what a PGA Tour Pro makes.

 

 

You said numbers are your thing - all the numbers are there across the various platforms, and it's easy to find out how many views/followers he has across various platforms he's on.   There's some variables in there so it's possible it's less than 4, and possible it's more than 5.   Even with that, it's still millions.   Excluding Grant specifically and golf, Youtube alone pays out to creators $10's of billions a year - it's an enormous space/industry with a ton of money floating out there.  And that's just YT, don't forget about all the other social media platforms out there as well, nobody is on just one. 

 

 

[FriedEgg]

Major week and this is an important story?