OB rules question

[Petethreeput]

Quick question.  This weekend my opponent hit the ball out of bounds... but it bounced off the building and nestled against a tree trunk in bounds about 12" from the OB line painted on the cart path.  Starting here, we know the ball is in play, but this is where I get a little squirrely and I am not complaining about the ruling, but wanted others to reflect on what they think.

 

The player, in order to hit the ball would have to stand on the cart path to execute his shot, effectively standing OB. 

 

One school of thought is, because it is a cart path and the player gets relief with no penalty.

 

The other school is, the cart path is out of bounds and therefore is not part of the course and subsequently the player would not be entitled to a free drop and must play the ball as it lies.

 

What do the rules illuminati think?

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

Relief is an option but not free as you’ve described it. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Relief is an option but not free as you’ve described it. 

 

Can you explain why you've said that?

 

3 hours ago, Petethreeput said:

Starting here, we know the ball is in play, but this is where I get a little squirrely and I am not complaining about the ruling, but wanted others to reflect on what they think.

 

I read "the ball is in play" as the ball is in bounds.

 

So, I know I have my answer, but I'm curious as to why you've answered as you have @Hawkeye77.

Edited July 21 by iacas
Added a "

[Hawkeye77]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Can you explain why you've said that?

 

 

I read "the ball is in play as the ball is in bounds.

 

So, I know I have my answer, but I'm curious as to why you've answered as you have @Hawkeye77.

Two in a row, lol, I’m like Jefferson in “Hamilton” - “What’d I miss?”    
 

Yep, ball is on the in course side of the path. I need to slow down or quit trying my to read stuff on the phone instead of the laptop. Sorry, OP! 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Petethreeput said:

this is where I get a little squirrely and I am not complaining about the ruling

 

So, @Petethreeput, what's your issue with the rules here?

[Petethreeput]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

So, @Petethreeput, what's your issue with the rules here?

No issue, I thought I knew the answer, but then the pro picked a different answer and I am just wondering what folks thought which is why I felt a little squirrely about the answer.  The assistant pro didn't know so he had to call out to the head pro for the final decision.

 

I realize it is a gray line (at least to me) but just wanted to pick the brains of the rules illuminati.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

I realize it is a gray line (at least to me) but just wanted to pick the brains of the rules illuminati.

 

That's what I'm trying to get to: why is it a grey line for you?

 

The player's ball is in bounds. He's standing OB but on a cart path. Yes?

[Petethreeput]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That's what I'm trying to get to: why is it a grey line for you?

 

The player's ball is in bounds. He's standing OB but on a cart path. Yes?

Exactly, so I don't want to say which I am leaning in the two rules decisions and possibly influence the response.  But because the cart path is OB it could either be it isn't germane to the ruling, or the ruling could be the cart path is considered a cart path regardless, and in which case, the player would get a free drop.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

That's what I'm trying to get to: why is it a grey line for you?

 

The player's ball is in bounds. He's standing OB but on a cart path. Yes?

Sure….but does he get the free path relief?  Let me spin it this way.  If there was an electrical box out of bounds and it interfered with stance or swing at a ball in bounds would the player get relief?  Or a wire supporting a newly planted tree out of bounds…wire is also out of bounds…free relief because of stance?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Two in a row, lol, I’m like Jefferson in “Hamilton” - “What’d I miss?”    
 

Yep, ball is on the in course side of the path. I need to slow down or quit trying my to read stuff on the phone instead of the laptop. Sorry, OP! 

 

Ah, I may have tricked you. 🙂

 

32 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

Exactly, so I don't want to say which I am leaning in the two rules decisions and possibly influence the response.  But because the cart path is OB it could either be it isn't germane to the ruling, or the ruling could be the cart path is considered a cart path regardless, and in which case, the player would get a free drop.

 

16.1 Abnormal Course Conditions (Including Immovable Obstructions)

(2) Relief Allowed Anywhere on Course Except When Ball Is in Penalty Area. Relief from interference by an abnormal course condition is allowed under Rule 16.1 only when both:

• The abnormal course condition is on the course (not out of bounds), and

• The ball is anywhere on the course, except in a penalty area (where the player’s only relief is under Rule 17).

Seems pretty clear to me? Does that help you clear up your feelings about it?

 

P.S. It's odd that they drew the line ON the cart path, and not on the EDGE of the cart path.

[Colin L]

32 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

Exactly, so I don't want to say which I am leaning in the two rules decisions and possibly influence the response.  But because the cart path is OB it could either be it isn't germane to the ruling, or the ruling could be the cart path is considered a cart path regardless, and in which case, the player would get a free drop.

That the path is OOB is entirely germane to the ruling.  You do not get relief from an obstruction that is OOB.  See Rule 16.1a(2)

[Petethreeput]

7 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You do not get relief from an obstruction that is OOB.

 

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

• The abnormal course condition is on the course (not out of bounds), and

• The ball is anywhere on the course, except in a penalty area (where the player’s only relief is under Rule 17).

It appears 16 seems to imply the ball is in a hazard.  This wasn't a hazard, it was simply moving slow enough to roll into the tree well and rest right against a tree that is not in a hazard but it part of the course.

 

When we walked around the tree and saw his ball sitting there, with no shot to the green (its a 70' tree) and really no way to play it without hitting it OOB I figured just as if it is a fence (or whatever impediment OOB the player doesn't get relief), but the ruling was he did get free relief because a cart path is a cart path regardless of where it is.

 

I felt like this was a misinterpretation of the rules, as I understood them, but it appears I know more than I thought.  

[Colin L]

29 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Sure….but does he get the free path relief?  Let me spin it this way.  If there was an electrical box out of bounds and it interfered with stance or swing at a ball in bounds would the player get relief?  Or a wire supporting a newly planted tree out of bounds…wire is also out of bounds…free relief because of stance?

No.  You don't get  relief from an obstruction that is out of bounds. 

[Colin L]

14 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

 

It appears 16 seems to imply the ball is in a hazard.  This wasn't a hazard, it was simply moving slow enough to roll into the tree well and rest right against a tree that is not in a hazard but it part of the course.

 

When we walked around the tree and saw his ball sitting there, with no shot to the green (its a 70' tree) and really no way to play it without hitting it OOB I figured just as if it is a fence (or whatever impediment OOB the player doesn't get relief), but the ruling was he did get free relief because a cart path is a cart path regardless of where it is.

 

I felt like this was a misinterpretation of the rules, as I understood them, but it appears I know more than I thought.  

The ruling was wrong.   

 

 

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

No.  You don't get  relief from an obstruction that is out of bounds. 

That’s what I thought.  @iacas reply threw me off a bit as the post I replied to from him had me thinking he meant relief would be granted. Which is why I mentioned other obstructions that wouldn’t be given relief from if OOB.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Petethreeput said:

It appears 16 seems to imply the ball is in a hazard.

 

No. 16 is about ACCs.

 

I bolded and made the part red that said the ACC had to be on the course.

[Petethreeput]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

No. 16 is about ACCs.

 

I bolded and made the part red that said the ACC had to be on the course.

I noted that, but wanted to read the whole thing and it started with ball in the hazard.  Again, I thought that was the case, but capitulated based on the pros expertise. 

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

I noted that, but wanted to read the whole thing and it started with ball in the hazard.  Again, I thought that was the case, but capitulated based on the pros expertise. 

Expertise?

[Petethreeput]

29 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Expertise?

He's a pro.  I am guy who slaps the ball around and chases it.  He should have (and does) more expertise or knowledge than I do.

[rogolf]

Not all “pros” know the Rules of golf. This situation is pretty simple. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Not all “pros” know the Rules of golf. This situation is pretty simple. 

 

Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, it's not really one of the core things they generally have to do, though I do prefer when they say "I don't know, let's find out together" rather than giving an answer they think might be right (but often isn't).

[LeoLeo99]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, it's not really one of the core things they generally have to do, though I do prefer when they say "I don't know, let's find out together" rather than giving an answer they think might be right (but often isn't).

This mindset applies to a lot of things in life.  

[TroyB123]

I'm confused about the line being painted on the cart path.   Is the line on the course side of the cart path?   Is the path a boundary object, or is there some part of the path that is in bounds by where he is playing the ball?   

[SNIPERBBB]

11 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

I'm confused about the line being painted on the cart path.   Is the line on the course side of the cart path?   Is the path a boundary object, or is there some part of the path that is in bounds by where he is playing the ball?   

line painted on the path makes for some interesting possibilities if the line isnt painted perfectly along the edge of the path or the path isnt perfectly squared off.

[Petethreeput]

The line is right along the edge of the grass.  It was just easier to do that rather than spraying it every 3 days when it was in the grass.  So grass is in, the cart path is the boundary and demarcated with the line.

[rogolf]

27 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

line painted on the path makes for some interesting possibilities if the line isnt painted perfectly along the edge of the path or the path isnt perfectly squared off.

The paved entrance road to our club is on the left side of the first hole.  We put white stakes along the course side of the road to indicate out of bounds.  Out of bounds is defined as the course side of the pavement - anything on or over the road is out of bounds.  There is no free relief for artificially-surfaced roads or cart paths that are not on the defined golf course.  

Edited July 22 by rogolf

[SNIPERBBB]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The paved entrance road to our club is on the left side of the first hole.  We put white stakes along the course side of the road to indicate out of bounds.  Out of bounds is defined as the course side of the pavement - anything on or over the road is out of bounds.  There is no free relief for artificially-surfaced roads or cart paths that are not on the defined golf course.  

just to clear, is that the course rule that the road is OB or that your stakes are placed such that its not possible at a turn in the road be slightly outside(on the course side) the stakes

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

just to clear, is that the course rule that the road is OB or that your stakes are placed such that its not possible at a turn in the road be slightly outside(on the course side) the stakes

By Local Rule, the stakes do not define the out of bounds, they only indicate that there is out of bounds present.  The edge of the road itself defines the out of bounds.

See Committee procedures 2A(1)c and d for clarification between white stakes "indicating" and "defining" out of bounds.

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

line painted on the path makes for some interesting possibilities if the line isnt painted perfectly along the edge of the path or the path isnt perfectly squared off.

It actually doesn't matter where the line is painted on the path;  the boundary line is the course side edge of the line.  Beyond that edge is out of of bounds.    If the line were painted down the middle of the path, part of the path is on the course and the other is our off bounds.  It's  no different from a line painted on grass.

 

By the way, as a general point, I get the impression from this and many other threads that a cart path seems to be regarded by some in the USA as something special rules-wise but it isn't.  A cart path is either an immovable obstruction if artificially surfaced or just part of the course if grass or earth.  Free relief (except in a penalty area) from the former and play the ball as it lies from the latter.  

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

By the way, as a general point, I get the impression from this and many other threads that a cart path seems to be regarded by some in the USA as something special rules-wise but it isn't.

I don’t get that perception (but I’m in the USA). It’s just that they’re more common here and they’re almost always on the course, so they come up a lot.