Are you a good student/proper practice

[GoGoErky]

Great episode from the spin axis about being a good student

 

https://thespinaxis.com/ep20/

 

And  good video about practicing from

AMG 

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

I didn't watch all the AMG video. Sounded like it was going to be an infomercial for that swing training app I can't use.

 

Listened to the podcast. I am not a very good student. I suck at drills and slow motion swinging. I also tend to have unrealistic expectations. It’s all on me for sure, though. Just grinding it out on my own right now. Maybe I'll do something online one day and try to be a good student. Otherwise I'll keep digging it out of the plastic.

[MonteScheinblum]

Being a good student only involves two factors in my opinion.

 

Listen and make an effort to do better.  How much effort doesn’t matter to me.  
 

What chaps may hide is people that come for a lesson, argue what they’ve heard to discount what I’m explaining to them. 
 

Then come back for a second lesson complaining they haven’t improved, I tell them X is still an issue and they say, “I tried that at the range the day after our last lesson and it didn’t really work so I’ve been working on (insert unrelated issue that they heard from a friend or found on YouTube).  
 

 

[Saijin]

32 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Being a good student only involves two factors in my opinion.

 

Listen and make an effort to do better.  How much effort doesn’t matter to me.  
 

What chaps may hide is people that come for a lesson, argue what they’ve heard to discount what I’m explaining to them. 
 

Then come back for a second lesson complaining they haven’t improved, I tell them X is still an issue and they say, “I tried that at the range the day after our last lesson and it didn’t really work so I’ve been working on (insert unrelated issue that they heard from a friend or found on YouTube).  
 

 

 

You should try teaching a Japanese kid from Japan.

 

[coloradocool32]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Being a good student only involves two factors in my opinion.

 

Listen and make an effort to do better.  How much effort doesn’t matter to me.  
 

What chaps may hide is people that come for a lesson, argue what they’ve heard to discount what I’m explaining to them. 
 

Then come back for a second lesson complaining they haven’t improved, I tell them X is still an issue and they say, “I tried that at the range the day after our last lesson and it didn’t really work so I’ve been working on (insert unrelated issue that they heard from a friend or found on YouTube).  
 

 

Monte what do you think of that app they're using? Seems like it could be beneficial for setup?

[TexasTurf]

I can't buy into this because when you try what they are saying, and go all in and get significantly worse, then try what cartoon Dr. Evil online is saying and you immediately get better results, it gets a little murky.

 

It feels dirty, like cheating on a wife I've never had. But not going to sacrifice my game to hang on to a failed relationship. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, coloradocool32 said:

Monte what do you think of that app they're using? Seems like it could be beneficial for setup?

Looks interesting but haven’t used it.

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I didn't watch all the AMG video. Sounded like it was going to be an infomercial for that swing training app I can't use.

 

Listened to the podcast. I am not a very good student. I suck at drills and slow motion swinging. I also tend to have unrealistic expectations. It’s all on me for sure, though. Just grinding it out on my own right now. Maybe I'll do something online one day and try to be a good student. Otherwise I'll keep digging it out of the plastic.

 

Haha, except for the plastic part, I would have written this - I'm a poor student.  By Monte's definition I'm okay but honestly "not much effort" has been me for some time and I've really regressed.  Captures at his clinic were scary and (unfortunately) my wife took some video of my playing at a course when we took a trip immediately following the clinic and I looked at them yesterday and my arms were so far behind just as they were a few days before, even in a bunker, yikes (but that bunker shot result on the 18th was one of the best bunker shots I've ever hit in my life and got rave reviews from my caddie - more like therapist that morning).  

 

Converse is she also took video of a couple of drills Monte had me doing and I just look at them and start swearing - just makes me mad that things can look so good and yes, that should encourage me, but it's more like "what the ______ you moron".

 

Ball doesn't matter on drills is really hard for many.  Two of the best drills I took away don't even use a ball so that helps.  

 

I'm not interested in an app ad either and don't generally follow links blindly but if they reinforce what is often said here about approach to practice then no doubt worth a watch or listen. 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Listen and make an effort to do better.  How much effort doesn’t matter to me.

 

I mean, one of the items on the list (give it a listen, Monte!) is "be on time and take care of payment." 🤣 A student who no-show/no-calls isn't being a good student. They've wasted your time.

 

But that's one of the few items that isn't really about getting better at golf directly. Most of the items speak to how a student "makes an effort." Or makes their "best" effort. Because you can "make an effort" or really want to and try to get better, but how do you make that effort:

1. Be Open to Change.
2. Be Willing to Work.
3. Ask Good and Relevant Questions.
4. Be on Time and Take Care of Payment.
5. Be clear about your expectations and ability to practice.
6. Don’t say you want to be more consistent.
7. Slow down.
8. Be patient.
9. Be yourself.
10. Have a growth mindset.
11. Work on one thing at a time.
12. Accept that you may hit it a little worse for awhile.
13. Stay in touch with your coach, because they care.
14. Be willing to exaggerate.

Now…

• 1 and 10 are similar, but not identical.
• Ditto for 2 and 5.
• 6 is a bit of an inside joke as you know.
• 12 is different if you're in a place with seasons: I'm more skill based or make smaller changes with more immediate positive results in the summer than late fall/winter.
• 11 should be read a few times.
• 7 and 14 are big for me.

So, most of the items on the list are how a golf student "makes an effort."

 

Anyway, the episode is less than 20 minutes long, so give it a listen.

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I mean, one of the items on the list (give it a listen, Monte!) is "be on time and take care of payment." 🤣 A student who no-show/no-calls isn't being a good student. They've wasted your time.

 

But that's one of the few items that isn't really about getting better at golf directly. Most of the items speak to how a student "makes an effort." Or makes their "best" effort. Because you can "make an effort" or really want to and try to get better, but how do you make that effort:

1. Be Open to Change.
2. Be Willing to Work.
3. Ask Good and Relevant Questions.
4. Be on Time and Take Care of Payment.
5. Be clear about your expectations and ability to practice.
6. Don’t say you want to be more consistent.
7. Slow down.
8. Be patient.
9. Be yourself.
10. Have a growth mindset.
11. Work on one thing at a time.
12. Accept that you may hit it a little worse for awhile.
13. Stay in touch with your coach, because they care.
14. Be willing to exaggerate.

Now…

• 1 and 10 are similar, but not identical.
• Ditto for 2 and 5.
• 6 is a bit of an inside joke as you know.
• 12 is different if you're in a place with seasons: I'm more skill based or make smaller changes with more immediate positive results in the summer than late fall/winter.
• 11 should be read a few times.
• 7 and 14 are big for me.

So, most of the items on the list are how a golf student "makes an effort."

 

Anyway, the episode is less than 20 minutes long, so give it a listen.

How much of that list do you go over with students...both new and existing students? 

 

Some of those items have instructor myopathy that, when viewed through the lens of the student, really blur the lines a bit.

 

Be willing to work - if what work means isn't outlined to a student then there's a big issue. To many students, 30 drill.swings is work...not 30 drill swings, 3 times a week, for 2 months.

 

Ask good and relevant questions...this one is the one the screems instructor myopathy the most. Im coming to you for a lesson. I only have questions. Every question in my head is good and relevant. If I want to improve upon my "good and relevant" then I have to educate myself. That's basically opening up the YouTube rabbit hole. So what seems like good and relevant to me is a (hopefully) silent nuisance to you.

 

Don't say you want to be more consistent....well, as a student I say that this is EXACTLY what we students want. Telling us to not say this is like telling us to ask good and relevant questions. We students look to you instructors to tell us what is leading to inconsistency and how to be more consistent.

 

You're a good instructor. Monte is a good instructor. My instructor is a good instructor. But I've met plenty, and had lessons from, who were not good instructors.

 

I've overheard lessons where the student was doing drill work with a pw and wanted to know when he could move up to a 7i and then driver. This was after my own lesson. I never chime in on someone else's lesson, but I kind of reacted and said "after about 100 more" and my/our instructor smiled and said to the student "see?". 

 

You guys have a tough job because you're dealing more with people's expectations than their swings.

 

What's the ratio of students who out in the work vs those who don't/won't?  1 who will for every 20 who won't? 

[Quahog217]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I mean, one of the items on the list (give it a listen, Monte!) is "be on time and take care of payment." 🤣 A student who no-show/no-calls isn't being a good student. They've wasted your time.

 

But that's one of the few items that isn't really about getting better at golf directly. Most of the items speak to how a student "makes an effort." Or makes their "best" effort. Because you can "make an effort" or really want to and try to get better, but how do you make that effort:

1. Be Open to Change.
2. Be Willing to Work.
3. Ask Good and Relevant Questions.
4. Be on Time and Take Care of Payment.
5. Be clear about your expectations and ability to practice.
6. Don’t say you want to be more consistent.
7. Slow down.
8. Be patient.
9. Be yourself.
10. Have a growth mindset.
11. Work on one thing at a time.
12. Accept that you may hit it a little worse for awhile.
13. Stay in touch with your coach, because they care.
14. Be willing to exaggerate.

Now…

• 1 and 10 are similar, but not identical.
• Ditto for 2 and 5.
• 6 is a bit of an inside joke as you know.
• 12 is different if you're in a place with seasons: I'm more skill based or make smaller changes with more immediate positive results in the summer than late fall/winter.
• 11 should be read a few times.
• 7 and 14 are big for me.

So, most of the items on the list are how a golf student "makes an effort."

 

Anyway, the episode is less than 20 minutes long, so give it a listen.

How long should this be? I have been taking lessons and practicing hard with 12 months and still hitting it worse. There is positive signs but still a lot of destructive shots. Started a 2.4 now 5.0 index.

[getitdaily]

11 minutes ago, Quahog217 said:

How long should this be? I have been taking lessons and practicing hard with 12 months and still hitting it worse. There is positive signs but still a lot of destructive shots. Started a 2.4 now 5.0 index.

Your instructor either had you bite off too much at once or he's giving you bad advice on what to change.

[Quahog217]

14 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Your instructor either had you bite off too much at once or he's giving you bad advice on what to change.

He's stack and tilt so its a big change for me. To be fair I struggle with change, I had have a crappy steep swing, inside takeaway, OTT for 20 years and I play lots of golf so its really ingrained. I think that is the biggest problem.

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, Quahog217 said:

How long should this be? I have been taking lessons and practicing hard with 12 months and still hitting it worse. There is positive signs but still a lot of destructive shots. Started a 2.4 now 5.0 index.

 

Uhhh, not that long.

 

And "practicing hard" is good. Practicing well is often a different thing.

[MidwestHacker]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Work on one thing at a time.

Accept that you may hit it a little worse for awhile.

Im finding these are the two biggest factors for me, currently going through a swing rebuild with a coach. But also, my coach has been really good when we're changing something to clearly explain, "When we change X, you're probably going to have Y (bad outcome) happen because of Z (explanation of cause/effect of new movement pattern) as you learn the movement." Knowing that a negative outcome is planned for and even expected as the result of proper implementation of a new movement pattern is helpful as a student. 

[dpc]

7. 8. and 11.  I should write those numbers on my golf glove or bag so I see them every time I pick up a club.

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, Quahog217 said:

He's stack and tilt so its a big change for me. To be fair I struggle with change, I had have a crappy steep swing, inside takeaway, OTT for 20 years and I play lots of golf so its really ingrained. I think that is the biggest problem.

Did you purposefully seek out a stack and tilt guy or did you happen upon one while seeking instruction? 

[Quahog217]

10 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Did you purposefully seek out a stack and tilt guy or did you happen upon one while seeking instruction? 

No I didn't actually know this guy was stack and tilt when I started

[Quahog217]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Uhhh, not that long.

 

And "practicing hard" is good. Practicing well is often a different thing.

To be fair I think my practice is decent, I follow one of your old posts, slow swings, three quater swings etc. And i only do 20 min sessions so I'm really focused on the change as my mind can drift during long sessions.

[GoGoErky]

13 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I didn't watch all the AMG video. Sounded like it was going to be an infomercial for that swing training app I can't use.

 

Listened to the podcast. I am not a very good student. I suck at drills and slow motion swinging. I also tend to have unrealistic expectations. It’s all on me for sure, though. Just grinding it out on my own right now. Maybe I'll do something online one day and try to be a good student. Otherwise I'll keep digging it out of the plastic.

Not really an infomercial, more about how to go about making a change but also using the data from the app for each session

[BSI99]

I'm a good student in the sense I'll listen, I'm a terrible student in the sense I hate slow motion swings. I'm paying for range balls I don't want to waste half of them on shots that go 100 feet. 

[getitdaily]

47 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

I'm a good student in the sense I'll listen, I'm a terrible student in the sense I hate slow motion swings. I'm paying for range balls I don't want to waste half of them on shots that go 100 feet. 

Your statement is a big, big statement. 

 

Have thought about making a thread that talks about that as an obstacle to people getting better. Right or wrong, there's a value marker on each ball for people who go to a range and dont have an unlimited range membership. 

 

It's easy for someone to say "ballflight doesn't matter" or "hit 75% of your practice balls as half shots". But when someone forks over $25+ for a basket of balls, they're thinking about repetition and full flight. 

[BSI99]

13 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Your statement is a big, big statement. 

 

Have thought about making a thread that talks about that as an obstacle to people getting better. Right or wrong, there's a value marker on each ball for people who go to a range and dont have an unlimited range membership. 

 

It's easy for someone to say "ballflight doesn't matter" or "hit 75% of your practice balls as half shots". But when someone forks over $25+ for a basket of balls, they're thinking about repetition and full flight. 

Also part of it is straight up embarrassment I think. People are embarrassed to hit 40 yard pitch shots on the range

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

6 hours ago, getitdaily said:

How much of that list do you go over with students...both new and existing students? 

 

Some of those items have instructor myopathy that, when viewed through the lens of the student, really blur the lines a bit.

 

Be willing to work - if what work means isn't outlined to a student then there's a big issue. To many students, 30 drill.swings is work...not 30 drill swings, 3 times a week, for 2 months.

 

Ask good and relevant questions...this one is the one the screems instructor myopathy the most. Im coming to you for a lesson. I only have questions. Every question in my head is good and relevant. If I want to improve upon my "good and relevant" then I have to educate myself. That's basically opening up the YouTube rabbit hole. So what seems like good and relevant to me is a (hopefully) silent nuisance to you.

 

Don't say you want to be more consistent....well, as a student I say that this is EXACTLY what we students want. Telling us to not say this is like telling us to ask good and relevant questions. We students look to you instructors to tell us what is leading to inconsistency and how to be more consistent.

 

You're a good instructor. Monte is a good instructor. My instructor is a good instructor. But I've met plenty, and had lessons from, who were not good instructors.

 

I've overheard lessons where the student was doing drill work with a pw and wanted to know when he could move up to a 7i and then driver. This was after my own lesson. I never chime in on someone else's lesson, but I kind of reacted and said "after about 100 more" and my/our instructor smiled and said to the student "see?". 

 

You guys have a tough job because you're dealing more with people's expectations than their swings.

 

What's the ratio of students who out in the work vs those who don't/won't?  1 who will for every 20 who won't? 

Lots of great content in thread, from both the instructors (which I'm used to seeing.  We're spoiled here.) and the students.

 

Due diligence on the student's part "should" provide them with a clue about the instructor's philosophy, teaching style, and capabilities, so that trusting the instructor's content, and trying to implement it, can proceed at once.  

 

Agreed there are a lot of bad and mediocre instructors.  With those, you start (understandably) second-guessing what they want you to do, then you're toast as a student.  In my limited experience, anyway.

 

I get that learning golf is going to be three steps forward, two steps back.  Setbacks in learning don't really concern me, because with a good instructor, and mutually agreed upon goals, I'll eventually figure it out.  Might mean a few more loops on that particular bullet point in the pedagogy plan, but I'll get there.  But if there's no plan, no path, no typical set of milestones and times, then I start getting concerned that this will be like the popular stereotype of psychoanalysis:  a bunch of frequent lessons with no learning, no improvement, continually going in circles, so long as my money keeps flowing.  But enough about franchised golf instruction...

 

Anyway, neat thread.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Your statement is a big, big statement. 

 

Have thought about making a thread that talks about that as an obstacle to people getting better. Right or wrong, there's a value marker on each ball for people who go to a range and dont have an unlimited range membership. 

 

It's easy for someone to say "ballflight doesn't matter" or "hit 75% of your practice balls as half shots". But when someone forks over $25+ for a basket of balls, they're thinking about repetition and full flight. 

Having been that guy, and realizing that (for me) the problem is paying that much to hit half-shots that go a bit further, but I can't go retrieve them.  Like I can in the 40-50 yd field by my house.  We're agreeing, btw.

 

The solution I found was to take a lot of data on each practice shot.  Strike location, divot location.  Window.  Distance.  Did it stop quickly or zip away?  Feels & impressions?  Take your time, working through a pre-shot routine on each shot, and even a small basket lasts awhile.  Plus, now I have data, trends even.

 

Ego gets in the way, for me.  A lot.  "Hit it further than that guy!  Awe him with the sound of your zipping ball!"  Even if it doesn't make sense according to the practice plan.  Sounds stupid, right?  It certainly looks stupid, writing it here.

 

[MidwestHacker]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Your statement is a big, big statement. 

 

Have thought about making a thread that talks about that as an obstacle to people getting better. Right or wrong, there's a value marker on each ball for people who go to a range and dont have an unlimited range membership. 

 

It's easy for someone to say "ballflight doesn't matter" or "hit 75% of your practice balls as half shots". But when someone forks over $25+ for a basket of balls, they're thinking about repetition and full flight. 

Get a net and a mat for you to hit balls at home if you cant stomach paying $25/basket to hit half shots. Would help with the embarrassment aspect as well, although the only time anyone really pays attention to what anyone else is doing is if you're hosel shanking some ground rockets at them. Or if they're hitting absolute piss missles, I'll usually watch a swing or two while Im cleaning off a club or something. 

[johnrobison]

4 hours ago, BSI99 said:

I'm paying for range balls I don't want to waste half of them on shots that go 100 feet. 

If your goal is to hit balls far, that makes sense.

If your goal is to improve, they're not wasted. That's exactly why you paid for them.

Edited July 24 by johnrobison

[ThinkingPlus]

4 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Not really an infomercial, more about how to go about making a change but also using the data from the app for each session

I didn't let it go far enough I guess. The app is irritating to me because it is iOS only. Apple's hardware was always brilliantly designed. Their software not so much. Way too touchy, feely for me. 

[sundaypins]

3 hours ago, BSI99 said:

Also part of it is straight up embarrassment I think. People are embarrassed to hit 40 yard pitch shots on the range

 

Range sessions can be very productive while being tons of challenging fun.    What do you think would happen if you wanted to have the ball run out by 40 yards but bounce off the ground 3 times along the way, what about bouncing 2 times before it rolls to a stop, or once.   You're only limited by your own view, and maybe a few range rules. 

[ThinkingPlus]

4 hours ago, BSI99 said:

I'm a good student in the sense I'll listen, I'm a terrible student in the sense I hate slow motion swings. I'm paying for range balls I don't want to waste half of them on shots that go 100 feet. 

We have a range membership.  Range balls are free (LOL). Actually 3 large buckets a day. That's roughly 300 balls for the two of us. It we hit all of them every day, we would be crippled in a week.

 

My struggle with slow motion swings is I can't hit the ball (embarrassing). My stock 8i goes 130 or so. I can hit it 100 or 110 or 120, but not with a slow full swing. I choke down and hit various length punches to dial in the distance. Not great at it, but doable. Full slow swing is topped, bladed, chunked, and shanked (sounds like an incompetent law firm).