Measuring GRF's is Overrated

[airjammer]

Just move better is such a “Bunk” statement imo.  A big portion of the “move better” movement revelations comes from GRF data revelations. 
 

For example, before force plates instructors had a very poor understanding of early extension and how to properly fix it. It’s actually not early extension at all, it’s proper term in A/P force deficiency which basically means your lead leg isn’t pushing harder than your trail leg. Most instructors before force plates just had golfers try to keep their butt on an object and swing. Now we know that if you aren’t forward enough when you push with your lead leg that it’s pretty dang hard to get 2x more force with the lead leg if you don’t get your pressure forward enough, which was the piece of instruction that most instructors didn’t know about. 
 

It’s certainly not the end all be all as there isn’t one in golf but if you aren’t measuring GFR in your lessons, then you probably aren’t giving the best lessons you possibly could especially in better players where the root cause may be hard to see with a camera 

[Josh H]

Out of interest (not that it matters as its bunk anyway) - how widely available are force plate type bays stateside? Not full GEARS but just the force plates?

 

I don't know of anywhere within reasonable distance of myself who has them, however there's a full blown gears and swing catalyst place circa 3hrs away and that's all I've been and to find. 

 

 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:
 

 

It’s certainly not the end all be all as there isn’t one in golf but if you aren’t measuring GFR in your lessons, then you probably aren’t giving the best lessons you possibly could especially in better players where the root cause may be hard to see with a camera 

If you can't see it in the camera, you might as well quit that side of things and just move into club fitting.

[KD1]

8 minutes ago, Josh H said:

Out of interest (not that it matters as its bunk anyway) - how widely available are force plate type bays stateside? Not full GEARS but just the force plates?

 

I don't know of anywhere within reasonable distance of myself who has them, however there's a full blown gears and swing catalyst place circa 3hrs away and that's all I've been and to find. 

 

 

 

I've never seen one but it's not like I get around much either...

 

Funny enough the instructor down the street has gears. I don't remember how we got into this conversation a few years ago but he also thinks force plates are overrated. that's the PG rated version of the conversation anyway.

[Snarkesor]

My instructor said that 99% of the time he knows what the pressure trace will look like from just observing a student’s swing. He also says that because there are a variety of ways to move one’s pressure as recorded by the plates, they are of limited use. You have to show the student the right way to move, not just say “get more pressure forward” or whatever the case may be. There’s an entire kinetic chain.

[virtuoso]

7 minutes ago, Snarkesor said:

My instructor said that 99% of the time he knows what the pressure trace will look like from just observing a student’s swing. He also says that because there are a variety of ways to move one’s pressure as recorded by the plates, they are of limited use. You have to show the student the right way to move, not just say “get more pressure forward” or whatever the case may be. There’s an entire kinetic chain.

Of course he can.

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

If you can't see it in the camera, you might as well quit that side of things and just move into club fitting.

Someone could say that about club fitting and launch monitors. Sure, there might be some savant that can accurately calculate club and ball data but no widely recognized club fitter that I know of is fitting clubs without a launch monitor and there is a reason for that. 
 

Dana doesn’t use his gasp plates every lesson because he’s measured enough that he has a good educated guess on what the pressures are just by video. However, most coaches don’t have 3d pressure plates and haven’t even been on them or used them so no I don’t believe most coaches have good educational guesses. Yes, I know 99% of the students of most coaches have a glaring issues that to fixing way before you even think about GRF. 
 

Even if I was a coach it would be a hard sell for me to shell out 40k for something that I might absolutely need 1 time a month if I’m lucky. If you are teaching very high level students, I think it’s a must. If anything just for extra buy in from students. 

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Someone could say that about club fitting and launch monitors. Sure, there might be some savant that can accurately calculate club and ball data but no widely recognized club fitter that I know of is fitting clubs without a launch monitor and there is a reason for that. 
 

Dana doesn’t use his gasp plates every lesson because he’s measured enough that he has a good educated guess on what the pressures are just by video. However, most coaches don’t have 3d pressure plates and haven’t even been on them or used them so no I don’t believe most coaches have good educational guesses. Yes, I know 99% of the students of most coaches have a glaring issues that to fixing way before you even think about GRF. 
 

Even if I was a coach it would be a hard sell for me to shell out 40k for something that I might absolutely need 1 time a month if I’m lucky. If you are teaching very high level students, I think it’s a must. If anything just for extra buy in from students. 

You're taking me a bit to seriously...but, since we are being serious, I pretty much agree with the last two paragraphs.

 

But on the first paragraph, no. If someone said you can do a really good club fitting with out a launch monitor, they would be a moron. Much easier to guess GRF through video and eyeballs than guess ball speed, launch and spin with eyeballs....especially if there is any wind at all......and in a room into a net.....fuuuugitt about it.

[sundaypins]

5 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Furthermore, I might give someone permission to get on my plates if they said they were doing it mostly for path work.

 

That's a swing on solid footing there.  Great hands, great feet.  

[JimmyC59]

I guess I'm dumb, but what is GRF?

[getitdaily]

5 minutes ago, JimmyC59 said:

I guess I'm dumb, but what is GRF?

It's how you pronounce "golf" in Switzerland...

 

 

 

 

 

[CoreyW1369]

26 minutes ago, JimmyC59 said:

I guess I'm dumb, but what is GRF?

Golf is Really Frustrating.

[Ajgaguy83]

1 hour ago, JimmyC59 said:

I guess I'm dumb, but what is GRF?

Ground Reaction Force. 

Edited July 25 by Ajgaguy83

[iacas]

11 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Just move your body correctly and the GRF's will take care of themselves.

…

Tell me I'm wrong!

 

You're wrong. I'll be brief, though.

 

"Just move correctly" is awfully loaded. No crap, "just move correctly and GRFs will take care of themselves." So will everything else. Ball flight. Contact. Distance. Whatever. How do you GET the student to "move correctly?"

 

Force plates are a tool to do that.

 

This topic is like telling a fitter "just look at the ball flight" and to not use their launch monitors or anything else.

 

Force plates are a tool. Like any other tool (GEARS, HackMotion, a launch monitor, training aids, mental imagery, SAM PuttLab, a loft/lie machine, a rangefinder, etc. etc. etc.), they have a time and a place.

 

11 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

Yep I was referring to them. Claiming that great players didn't shift to their trail side, and then they got a dose of that science.

 

Oh, I know all about that. Both sides of it. 😉 

 

7 hours ago, airjammer said:

Just move better is such a “Bunk” statement imo.  A big portion of the “move better” movement revelations comes from GRF data revelations.

 

Yup.

 

7 hours ago, airjammer said:

It’s actually not early extension at all, it’s proper term in A/P force deficiency which basically means your lead leg isn’t pushing harder than your trail leg.

 

Eh, most EE happens in the backswing. 🙂 Neither here nor there, but… a tour of this forum will show you what I mean.

[virtuoso]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You're wrong. I'll be brief, though.

 

"Just move correctly" is awfully loaded. No crap, "just move correctly and GRFs will take care of themselves." So will everything else. Ball flight. Contact. Distance. Whatever. How do you GET the student to "move correctly?"

 

Force plates are a tool to do that.

 

This topic is like telling a fitter "just look at the ball flight" and to not use their launch monitors or anything else.

 

Force plates are a tool. Like any other tool (GEARS, HackMotion, a launch monitor, training aids, mental imagery, SAM PuttLab, a loft/lie machine, a rangefinder, etc. etc. etc.), they have a time and a place.

 

 

Oh, I know all about that. Both sides of it. 😉 

 

 

Yup.

 

 

Eh, most EE happens in the backswing. 🙂 Neither here nor there, but… a tour of this forum will show you what I mean.

Yeah, on second thought, you’re probably right.

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, virtuoso said:

If you can't see it in the camera, you might as well quit that side of things and just move into club fitting.

You were born able to see it in the camera?  Or maybe it's a learned skill acquired by observing force plate data?

[virtuoso]

38 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

You were born able to see it in the camera?  Or maybe it's a learned skill acquired by observing force plate data?

Yeah, I think that was Iacas’s point. He might suspect something using only the camera, but would use force plate data to confirm it and give him a more granular understanding of what’s actually happening.

Edited July 25 by virtuoso

[TheDeanAbides]

This thread is the best of Wrx. 

[JimmyC59]

9 hours ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Ground Reaction Force. 

I'm still in the dark.

Reminds me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQVFhqAKcMg?si=MU1AzOwWIErPLGwG

[Ajgaguy83]

1 hour ago, JimmyC59 said:

I'm still in the dark.

Reminds me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQVFhqAKcMg?si=MU1AzOwWIErPLGwG

 

This isn’t the end-all-be-all answer, but see if this helps. 

https://swingcatalyst.com/resources/articles/ground-reaction-force

 

https://golf.psu.edu/biomechanics-of-golf/biomechanical-assessment-of-3d-data/ground-reaction-forces

 

For many, we don’t understand everything our optometrist, cardiologist, neurosurgeons, know/do while they help. It’s ok to leave certain topics to experts. That said, if your curiosity is peaked, by all means,  google away, ask questions, and try to learn. 

Edited July 25 by Ajgaguy83

[JimmyC59]

38 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

 

This isn’t the end-all-be-all answer, but see if this helps. 

https://swingcatalyst.com/resources/articles/ground-reaction-force

 

https://golf.psu.edu/biomechanics-of-golf/biomechanical-assessment-of-3d-data/ground-reaction-forces

 

For many, we don’t understand everything our optometrist, cardiologist, neurosurgeons, know/do while they help. It’s ok to leave certain topics to experts. That said, if your curiosity is peaked, by all means,  google away, ask questions, and try to learn. 

Thanks 

[jaffabell]

23 hours ago, getitdaily said:

And yes, I'm a foot pressure freak...because I got measured once and saw what I could be.

 

To your notion of "use your body correctly..." i agree. But this is hard to do for most folks. I watch videos from grf golf on YouTube and I see how they teach body movement and I love their stuff. But I dont see any other folks who post videos of lessons where they're teaching grf through body movement and not relying on plate data much (they have them). 

 

One of the things I learned in my shallowing journey this last year is just how much the club path is guided by where the hips/CoM is going. That's probably been a bigger aha than the data I got from pressure/force plates. 

Watch stuff from Liam Robinson here in the UK - he has done videos with James Wiltshire on his channel and just released another video this week. Honestly its eye opening and he explains it all in a different way. No force plates, just drills with and without a ball focussing on moving off the ball and creating space to get back on to it. For someone like me who doesn't have enough movement its really eye opening. I have messed around this week with some of his step drills and you can feel how much more dynamic the swing is, even after 5 mins of the drills. A lot of his drills are step drills and hitting a towel, I highly recommend you give it a watch. Learned it all from a coach called Gary Barter

 

 

[iacas]

12 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, on second thought, you’re probably right.

 

Ha, but you were just playing devil's advocate anyway… 🙂 

 

10 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, I think that was Iacas’s point. He might suspect something using only the camera, but would use force plate data to confirm it and give him a more granular understanding of what’s actually happening.

 

Yeah, basically. I can see that someone's not doing something, but the tool does a few things:

• It shows them that they're not doing something.
• It shows them how much they need to exaggerate something to actually do it.
• It shows them that they actually changed it and achieved it when they do.

It's a tool in the toolbox. They're not useful in every lesson, but they're useful when they're useful. I'd rather have an impact driver and not need it than need an impact driver but not have it.

 

With a lot of tech, what I've found is (and I've typed this before, so I'm starting to feel like @MonteScheinblum talking about the old woman who smokes):

• Before GEARS, I'd see someone whose pelvis moved 3" toward the ball in the backswing, and I'd show them this on camera, and say to them "okay, try to feel this to accomplish this change." They'd make the next swing, thinking they'd done it, but they'd still move their pelvis 2.6" toward the golf ball. I'd say "no, do it more" and I always thought some of them, in their minds, were thinking "This guy's nuts. There's no way I didn't do that way differently. He can't possibly want as much as he's asking! I don't know about this guy…"
• Now, on GEARS, I'll put that up as the only data point (or that's the only one I'll talk about while I silently monitor one or two others), and they'll look back at the screen and say "Oh, I didn't do it. I have to do it MORE." 😄 

So, often, the tool is for the students more than it is for the instructor.

 

On force plates, for example, you can go into live mode, and show just one graph (vertical, lateral, whatever) and students can experiment, live, with the feels that produce forces. A lot of them seem counter-intuitive to people. Having them be able to see what changes feel like, either live or immediately after a swing where they tried out a feel, is helpful.

[Jtgavigan]

54 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

Watch stuff from Liam Robinson here in the UK - he has done videos with James Wiltshire on his channel and just released another video this week. Honestly its eye opening and he explains it all in a different way. No force plates, just drills with and without a ball focussing on moving off the ball and creating space to get back on to it. For someone like me who doesn't have enough movement its really eye opening. I have messed around this week with some of his step drills and you can feel how much more dynamic the swing is, even after 5 mins of the drills. A lot of his drills are step drills and hitting a towel, I highly recommend you give it a watch. Learned it all from a coach called Gary Barter

 

 

Love his content and a very unique approach. 

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, jaffabell said:

Watch stuff from Liam Robinson here in the UK - he has done videos with James Wiltshire on his channel and just released another video this week. Honestly its eye opening and he explains it all in a different way. No force plates, just drills with and without a ball focussing on moving off the ball and creating space to get back on to it. For someone like me who doesn't have enough movement its really eye opening. I have messed around this week with some of his step drills and you can feel how much more dynamic the swing is, even after 5 mins of the drills. A lot of his drills are step drills and hitting a towel, I highly recommend you give it a watch. Learned it all from a coach called Gary Barter

 

 

Just subscribed to his channel. This first short told me all I needed to know about his style...

 

 

 

[jaffabell]

48 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Just subscribed to his channel. This first short told me all I needed to know about his style...

 

 

 

You like?

[getitdaily]

Just now, jaffabell said:

You like?

Just from that one short, I'll give him a shot. Haven't had the time to look in-depth.

[jaffabell]

1 minute ago, getitdaily said:

Just from that one short, I'll give him a shot. Haven't had the time to look in-depth.

I would watch the lessons he has given to James Wiltshire too, on James channel. I think you would enjoy it