Ball on edge of cement path, but touching PA grass.

[jobin]

Long ago I read that if the ball lies in the general area, but is resting on a banana leaf which is growing from the OB area, that ball is OB.

True or False?

 

What about a ball resting on the cement path but is touching living leaves growing from the PA? Ball in the PA or not?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

Long ago I read that if the ball lies in the general area, but is resting on a banana leaf which is growing from the OB area, that ball is OB.

True or False?

 

What about a ball resting on the cement path but is touching living leaves growing from the PA? Ball in the PA or not?

 

You can find these answers in the rules. The first one is in the definition of OB:

Out of Bounds

All areas outside the boundary edge of the course as defined by the Committee. All areas inside that edge are in bounds.

The boundary edge of the course extends both up above the ground and down below the ground:

• This means that all ground and anything else (such as any natural or artificial object) inside the boundary edge is in bounds, whether on, above or below the surface of the ground.

• If an object is both inside and outside the boundary edge (such as steps attached to a boundary fence, or a tree rooted outside the edge with branches extending inside the edge or vice versa), only the part of the object that is outside the edge is out of bounds.

The boundary edge should be defined by boundary objects or lines:

 

The second one, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. Why is there a path, and where exactly are the leaves? But if it's like the above, the definition provides the clue again:

 

The edge of a penalty area extends both up above the ground and down below the ground:

• This means that all ground and anything else (such as any natural or artificial object) inside the edge is part of the penalty area, whether on, above or below the surface of the ground.

• If an object is both inside and outside the edge (such as a bridge over the penalty area, or a tree rooted inside the edge with branches extending outside the edge or vice versa), only the part of the object that is inside the edge is part of the penalty area.

 

Hope that helps.

[ArtMBgolf]

The boundary line is straight up from the OB stakes or line.  If your ball is on the course side, it 
is in bounds.   Touching something that extends OB does not matter.  All depends on where the
ball is.  

[antip]

The language of the definitions, as cited above, is complex.

 

The short answers:

1. If your ball is touching any part of the course, or is overhanging any part of the course (the leaf is irrelevant), it is in bounds.

2. If your ball is touching the edge of the penalty area or is overhanging the edge of the penalty area (as noted above, it is a vertical line), the ball is in the penalty area. Which would mean no relief from the concrete path. Things growing are not relevant in this process, it is about touching that vertical line.

Edited July 26 by antip
typo

[Nickb333]

2 minutes ago, antip said:

The language of the definitions, as cited above, is complex.

 

The short answers:

1. If your ball is touching any part of the course, or is overhanging any part of the course (the leaf is irrelevant), it is in bounds.

2. If your ball is touching the edge of the penalty area or is overhanging the edge of the penalty area (as noted above, it is a vertical line), the ball is in the penalty area. Which would mean no relief from the concrete path. Things growing are not relevant in this process, it is about touching that vertical line.

I thought a ball had to be completely in the penalty area to be in the penalty area. And I thought touching applied to every favorable position like, the green, fairway or course. 
 

Your 2 examples seem to be in conflict IMO. 

[antip]

1 hour ago, Nickb333 said:

I thought a ball had to be completely in the penalty area to be in the penalty area. And I thought touching applied to every favorable position like, the green, fairway or course. 
 

Your 2 examples seem to be in conflict IMO. 

They are not in conflict. Touching the course (or overhanging) is on the course. Touching the PA is in the PA. Touching the GUR is in the GUR, etc.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

I thought a ball had to be completely in the penalty area to be in the penalty area. And I thought touching applied to every favorable position like, the green, fairway or course. 
 

Your 2 examples seem to be in conflict IMO. 

A ball is always treated as lying in only one area of the course:

• If part of the ball is in both the general area and one of the four specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in that specific area of the course.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, antip said:

They are not in conflict. Touching the course (or overhanging) is on the course. Touching the PA is in the PA. Touching the GUR is in the GUR, etc.

Yes I think of it as the ball is always “in” something: in bounds, in the PA, in the bunker, in the teeing area … or in the green. 😀

[sui generis]

WHOBUD & BGURD it once was. 😉

[Nickb333]

13 hours ago, antip said:

They are not in conflict. Touching the course (or overhanging) is on the course. Touching the PA is in the PA. Touching the GUR is in the GUR, etc.

I just reread the definition of penalty area. I’m feeling dense I guess. 
 

If marked by a line, the line is in penalty area. Is it not possible for a ball to be touching both the line and the course? 

[rogolf]

39 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

I just reread the definition of penalty area. I’m feeling dense I guess. 
 

If marked by a line, the line is in penalty area. Is it not possible for a ball to be touching both the line and the course? 

Sure.  But because it's touching the line, it is in the penalty area.

[davep043]

57 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

I just reread the definition of penalty area. I’m feeling dense I guess. 
 

If marked by a line, the line is in penalty area. Is it not possible for a ball to be touching both the line and the course? 

See rule 17.1a, and rule 2.2c.  

[Nickb333]

41 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Sure.  But because it's touching the line, it is in the penalty area.

So again, why is the statement I first questioned not in conflict? He said touching the course is on the course. Touching the pa is in the pa. 
 

I wasn’t questioning the rule. I was questioning antips statements. 

[Nickb333]

33 minutes ago, davep043 said:

See rule 17.1a, and rule 2.2c.  

Thanks . 2.2 helped. And in my initial question to antip, I mistakenly thought the definition of ob applied to all penalty lines. 

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Thanks . 2.2 helped. And in my initial question to antip, I mistakenly thought the definition of ob applied to all penalty lines. 

 

You were wrong when you said this part:

 

17 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

And I thought touching applied to every favorable position like, the green, fairway or course.

 

That's not how it works. It works like I said.

 

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Yes I think of it as the ball is always “in” something: in bounds, in the PA, in the bunker, in the teeing area … or in the green. 😀

 

A ball is always treated as lying in only one area of the course:

• If part of the ball is in both the general area and one of the four specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in that specific area of the course.

• If part of the ball is in two specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in the specific area that comes first in this order: penalty area, bunker, putting green.

 

[sui generis]

Memorize this folks, it works:

 

iacas said: "I think of it as the ball is always “in” something: in bounds, in the PA, in the bunker, in the teeing area … or in the green."

[Nickb333]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You were wrong when you said this part:

 

 

That's not how it works. It works like I said.

 

 

 

A ball is always treated as lying in only one area of the course:

• If part of the ball is in both the general area and one of the four specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in that specific area of the course.

• If part of the ball is in two specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in the specific area that comes first in this order: penalty area, bunker, putting green.

 

Thank you. I understand that now. Yet none of it excuses the incorrect and conflicting statement made by intip. 

 

20 hours ago, antip said:

They are not in conflict. Touching the course (or overhanging) is on the course. Touching the PA is in the PA. Touching the GUR is in the GUR, etc.

Touching the course clearly doesn’t mean the ball is always in the course. 
 

I appreciate learning the different definitions of a ball ob and in a pa. I was pretty sure the ball needed to entirely ob to be ob. I assumed the pa line was treated the same. Funny because the latter has never come up where it mattered in 45+ years. Perhaps everyone and I would take a hack at almost any ball just touching a red line. Unless it was in the mud… I don’t remember ever having an unplayable lie that was touching the line while still touching the course. Heck I’d probably swing at a mud ball too before I’d take a drop. But I digress. 
 

 

[Nickb333]

2 hours ago, sui generis said:

Memorize this folks, it works:

 

iacas said: "I think of it as the ball is always “in” something: in bounds, in the PA, in the bunker, in the teeing area … or in the green."

True. But if like me you didn’t know there was a different method to determine in bounds and in a pa you’re missing an important part. Simply touching a white line doesn’t matter. Touching a red line does. 

[Nickb333]

And fwiw, I couldn’t get any of those links to work. Just a 404. 
 

I did consult the rules app and learned something today. Thanks again. 

Edited July 28 by Nickb333
Typo

[antip]

6 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Thank you. I understand that now. Yet none of it excuses the incorrect and conflicting statement made by intip. 

 

Touching the course clearly doesn’t mean the ball is always in the course. 
 

I appreciate learning the different definitions of a ball ob and in a pa. I was pretty sure the ball needed to entirely ob to be ob. I assumed the pa line was treated the same. Funny because the latter has never come up where it mattered in 45+ years. Perhaps everyone and I would take a hack at almost any ball just touching a red line. Unless it was in the mud… I don’t remember ever having an unplayable lie that was touching the line while still touching the course. Heck I’d probably swing at a mud ball too before I’d take a drop. But I digress. 
 

 

Clearly, you have a unique opinion on whether there is any contradiction in my words. 

[st1800e]

13 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

I just reread the definition of penalty area. I’m feeling dense I guess. 
 

If marked by a line, the line is in penalty area. Is it not possible for a ball to be touching both the line and the course? 

The definition of course:

 

“The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee.”

 

11 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

He said touching the course is on the course. Touching the pa is in the pa. 

Penalty areas are part of the Course.  Penalty areas and the course are not mutually exclusive

 

6 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Touching the course clearly doesn’t mean the ball is always in the course. 

If the ball is touching the course it’s in the course, and  it would be in one of the 5 areas:

 

“The five defined areas that make up the course:

The general area,

The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole they are playing,

All penalty areas,

All bunkers, and

The putting green of the hole the player is playing.”

[antip]

7 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

True. But if like me you didn’t know there was a different method to determine in bounds and in a pa you’re missing an important part. Simply touching a white line doesn’t matter. Touching a red line does. 

In this part of the world, white lines normally represent GUR, OOB is usually marked differently (white stakes with black tops, black stakes or a variety of other reference to fences and boundaries), so touching the GUR white line matters, relief is available.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, antip said:

In this part of the world, white lines normally represent GUR, OOB is usually marked differently (white stakes with black tops, black stakes or a variety of other reference to fences and boundaries), so touching the GUR white line matters, relief is available.

Marking methods are not universal.  In my area, OB can be marked with white stakes, a white line, or sometimes a definition on the Notice to Players like "the inside edge of all fences".  But we also see white lines used to mark GUR.  

[Nickb333]

On 7/27/2025 at 3:09 AM, antip said:

Clearly, you have a unique opinion on whether there is any contradiction in my words. 

I understand now. I’m not very bright but at least I’m a slow learner. 
 

For folks like me I’d probably have written your initial response differently. Perhaps…

 

Unless the ball is completely out of bounds, it’s on the course. What part of the course is determined by what the ball is touching. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Nickb333 said:

I understand now. I’m not very bright but at least I’m a slow learner. 
 

For folks like me I’d probably have written your initial response differently. Perhaps…

 

Unless the ball is completely out of bounds, it’s on the course. What part of the course is determined by what the ball is touching. 

 

Take a look at 2.2c.

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#section=rules&itemNum=5&subItemNum=2

[Nickb333]

52 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Take a look at 2.2c.

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#section=rules&itemNum=5&subItemNum=2

Ya, davep posted that earlier. Very helpful for the uneducated me. 

[sui generis]

59 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Ya, davep posted that earlier. Very helpful for the uneducated me. 

Oh good, davep knows his stuff . . . I missed it. (Red Sox on MLB this evening.)

 

That's not one some Rulies memorize . . . we'd hate to get in wrong on the course. Most are not afraid to say, "Give me a minute, I'd like to look it up."