Creating space is bunk!

[golferdude54]

3 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I had to look up shoulder flexion. This?

 

(line drawing of me in my standard golf attire)

 

Yes, my bad, I meant shoulder extension. Sorry, I have the same drinking problem that Ted Striker does in Airplane movie except I don't know my lefts and rights.

[Hilts1969]

9 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Arguing arm angles and adduction by subtraction is bunk.

 

Unfortunately some people can never admit that they were wrong so to and fro is inevitable. 

[getitdaily]

19 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Unfortunately some people can never admit that they were wrong so to and fro is inevitable. 

And some folks can't get past "I have to be right".

[joedizzy1978]

12 hours ago, RayPlan said:

I can do that without increasing adduction

There's a moment where Sean says trail elbow connected to the side, stutters, tricep.  When I commented about trail arm connecting to the side seam, and it causing an increase in lead arm adduction, I'm referring to this specific wording.  Theres a big difference between the trail tricep on the side versus elbow on the side. In a perfect world, they would have edited out/reshot to eliminate the poor wording. 

[iacas]

Unlike some I can produce a video. And unlike a still from a moment in a video, I have two hands on the club.

 

 

 

[dpc]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Unlike some I can produce a video. And unlike a still from a moment in a video, I have two hands on the club.

 

 

 

This move right here, adding turn and speed at the bottom of the move is Gold, Jerry, Gold!

 

[KMeloney]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

No. Please share the link. I don't think I've ever seen anything like that from them. If they did, I feel like the context is missing (and important) here.

I can't find the video (it's older, and they're outside on a grass range..); but I've seen it a few times, and they were not promoting an arm-swing/crossing the midline or anything contradictory to what they promote in these current videos.

[airjammer]

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

Unlike some I can produce a video. And unlike a still from a moment in a video, I have two hands on the club.

 

 

 

Not saying you should be you can also reattach the trail arm to the ribcage thru lead should retraction which does move the hands closer to the midline. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CSvNyv5geB_/?igsh=MXI5bW4xMTRtNWNsNw==

 

 

 

[rsballer10]

18 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The demonstration was a little off because I didn’t understand things as well then as I do now, but this is from 13 years ago.

 

 

boy does this video bring back memories! I remember watching this in college...I'm 34 now 🙂. Been doing the "dump" or "magic move" for years now, so thank you. 

 

What would you change?

 

[golfie1]

3 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

 

Yes, my bad, I meant shoulder extension. Sorry, I have the same drinking problem that Ted Striker does in Airplane movie except I don't know my lefts and rights.

Honestly, I don't think shoulder extension is happening. I think the upper right arm appears to go line up with the spine angle due to thoracic flexion. Not sure why the AMG guys don't see this. But Shaun always looks weird when he demonstrates this. It doesn't look like a real golf swing.

[iacas]

47 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Not saying you should be you can also reattach the trail arm to the ribcage thru lead should retraction which does move the hands closer to the midline.

 

Do you think the lead shoulder is retracted at impact in the game's best players?

[golferdude54]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Unlike some I can produce a video. And unlike a still from a moment in a video, I have two hands on the club.

 

 

 

So do you just go on WRX and TST when you’re waiting on the tee box during your rounds? I can’t say I don’t do the same thing!

[joedizzy1978]

I guess theres yet another attempt to shuffle the P system. P4 was top of the swing and p5 was lead arm parallel during the downswing.  Someone produce a video. Lol. 

[iacas]

Imagine a triangle with these three points:

• Left shoulder (A)
• Right shoulder (B)
• Middle of the hands. (C)

 

AC (blue) is going to be longer than BC (green) because B bridges the gap of a bent right elbow.

 

The angle CAB (blue/magenta) is basically the adduction angle, or a close approximation for it, and you can rotate the triangle around the magenta axis to raise and lower point C. Rotate C upward, the right elbow is farther off the ribs. Rotate it downward, closer to the ribs.

 

In most good swings the right elbow and the adduction angle narrow slightly in transition, before widening again.

 

We (me, AMG, hundreds of others) have these measurements in 3D. This isn't guessing or going by feels. (3:55)

 

10 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

So do you just go on WRX and TST when you’re waiting on the tee box during your rounds? I can’t say I don’t do the same thing!

 

Rare that I got to play today. Only one guy ahead of us, we played casually in 2:40. But, yeah, I look occasionally online when I'm playing golf. Message a few people, have a few chuckles. So long as I can do it without taking myself away from the actual in-real-life people I'm with…

 

Long-time student of mine recorded that for me of course. That reminds me, here's a not-long-time student, a relatively new student, nearly 50. Was 17.8° open with the pelvis at impact, and 20 minutes later, was just over 51° open. Arms weren't working properly, so he had to stall to give his hands time to get down to the ball in the blue image (and right side bend to do it, too). Chest was open 14.something and then got to 37.something (slightly over-did the pelvis/chest rotation stuff).

 

Edited July 29 by iacas

[airjammer]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Do you think the lead shoulder is retracted at impact in the game's best players?

I haven’t seen the measurements but from video, I generally see the lead shoulder protracted. That’s why I said, not saying you should but…

 

As in most if not all golf instruction “truths”, there will be an outlier that makes you rethink that “truth”. Kinda like scottie sliding 6 inches on the downswing would have been a death move is you asked most coaches but now all the rage on social media accounts now is that “it’s a matchup”.
 

It’s always was been a matchup for someone who doesn’t rotate or separate well and still needs to keep the club on the right side of his body but actually get to the ball. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I haven’t seen the measurements but from video, I generally see the lead shoulder protracted. That’s why I said, not saying you should but…

 

Okay, then…

 

5 minutes ago, airjammer said:

As in most if not all golf instruction “truths”, there will be an outlier that makes you rethink that “truth”.

 

I generally see outliers as just that: outliers. I don't look at Matt Wolff and think "we should re-think the truth about the efficient windows through which we should teach players to move the clubhead through space."

 

5 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Kinda like scottie sliding 6 inches on the downswing would have been a death move is you asked most coaches but now all the rage on social media accounts now is that “it’s a matchup”.

 

That's not an outlier. Depending on the club, 6" of pelvis sway would be almost 50th percentile.

 

12 minutes ago, airjammer said:

It’s always was been a matchup for someone who doesn’t rotate or separate well and still needs to keep the club on the right side of his body but actually get to the ball. 

 

Uhhhh, okay.

[PedronNiall]

28 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I haven’t seen the measurements but

 

There are multiple AMG videos where they show the measurements in detail. There's one where pretty much all they do is cover the shoulder angles, and many more where you can see the angles of most of the body including the shoulders throughout the swing. If you want to know it's available through them, not to mention in threads here, elsewhere, and on blog posts where measurements are shared.

 

Even better part is you can see exactly what most better players do on average instead of eyeballing what might be going on. Eyeballing instead of measurement is exactly why people got away with selling "Hold the door! lag" and "swing to right field" for so long.

[airjammer]

28 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

There are multiple AMG videos where they show the measurements in detail. There's one where pretty much all they do is cover the shoulder angles, and many more where you can see the angles of most of the body including the shoulders throughout the swing. If you want to know it's available through them, not to mention in threads here, elsewhere, and on blog posts where measurements are shared.

 

Even better part is you can see exactly what most better players do on average instead of eyeballing what might be going on. Eyeballing instead of measurement is exactly why people got away with selling "Hold the door! lag" and "swing to right field" for so long.

The exact measurements wasn’t needed in this case as I was just stating it can be done another way. 
 

Virtual everyone swings to “right field”even slicers the only difference is to what extent and everyone is holding the lag too also to what extent as well. There the only real arguments in golf instruction is amount of force, duration of movements, and when they start/end. 

[rsballer10]

6 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Virtual everyone swings to “right field” even slicers

The problem with euphemisms is they are hard to define. What does this mean? Plenty of slicers shift their hands out and steepen the club in the downswing. Is this swinging to right field?

 

10 minutes ago, airjammer said:

There the only real arguments in golf instruction is amount of force, duration of movements, and when they start/end. 

I mean those are things that matter. I keep coming back to the basic premise that through force plates/ GEARS/ video/ launch monitors we have a pretty good idea what great players do. Some people may get caught up in the granular detail and that's important. But this thread went off on a crazy biomechanics tangent, when simply lowering the arms in transition is pretty easily demonstrated and understood. 

[KD1]

It all seems consistent.. I'm not sure what all the confusion is about.

 

They state in the linked video that this is the sequel to the famous shallowing video. Here's some numbers from that video that might help?

 

Pro level mobility test (P4 to p5):
1. Adduct trail arm 10 degrees
2. Internally rotate trail arm 5 degrees
3. Extend trail elbow 10 degrees
4. Supinate trail arm 20 degrees
5. Lower arm 20 - 25 degrees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfvVnWwhQFc?si=o8jrXfVlYNwuJmuS&t=829

 

[Pnwpingi210]

25 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The exact measurements wasn’t needed in this case as I was just stating it can be done another way. 
 

Virtual everyone swings to “right field”even slicers the only difference is to what extent and everyone is holding the lag too also to what extent as well. There the only real arguments in golf instruction is amount of force, duration of movements, and when they start/end. 

[golferdude54]

29 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The exact measurements wasn’t needed in this case as I was just stating it can be done another way. 
 

Virtual everyone swings to “right field”even slicers the only difference is to what extent and everyone is holding the lag too also to what extent as well. There the only real arguments in golf instruction is amount of force, duration of movements, and when they start/end. 

 

[GoGoErky]

15 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

The problem with euphemisms is they are hard to define. What does this mean? Plenty of slicers shift their hands out and steepen the club in the downswing. Is this swinging to right field?

Yep. I know lots of ott golfers who hit banana balls

[rsballer10]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

Yep. I know lots of ott golfers who hit banana balls

I think we all do lol. I know more that do than don't 🙂 

[airjammer]

Once the club head moves away and to the inside even a tenth of a degree, technically for a right handed player, it has to have some degree of right path to get back to the ball. 

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, airjammer said:

Once the club head moves away and to the inside even a tenth of a degree, technically for a right handed player, it has to have some degree of right path to get back to the ball. 

Hope this helps you….

 

 

[airjammer]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Hope this helps you….

 

 

No because you are thinking about at impact I’m referring to backswing.  The only way someone wouldn’t be swing right for even a brief period of time is if there club was outside the ball line. 

[rsballer10]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Once the club head moves away and to the inside even a tenth of a degree, technically for a right handed player, it has to have some degree of right path to get back to the ball. 

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

8 minutes ago, airjammer said:

No because you are thinking about at impact I’m referring to backswing.  The only way someone wouldn’t be swing right for even a brief period of time is if there club was outside the ball line. 

We are taking about swing path.  If you slice, your path is likely to the left.  The exception is neutral with an open face and it would be a push fade.

 

this isn’t up for debate…..it’s been measured

Edited July 29 by Pnwpingi210
Edit - changed right to lef…

[airjammer]

3 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

We are taking about swing path.  If you slice, your path is likely to the right.  The exception is neutral with an open face and it would be a push fade.

 

this isn’t up for debate…..it’s been measured

Exactly it is to the right until you swing in a way that makes the clubhead gets outside the ball line in which the path is left.