Creating space is bunk!

[airjammer]

31 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I understand your post and there is some validity to all of that when discussing opinions (subjective beliefs).

 I think where the bickering comes into play is when people present opinions that conflict or oppose validated facts.   
 

it’s instruction forum and it loses its value if people represent opinions that conflict with what we know to be true.  

 

15 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, after experts speak, the amateur commentary following that presentation is more likely to confuse the issue than add clarity.

 

The AMG guys have taken complicated measurements and made it about as simple as it can be translated. There’s only one direction ignorant people can take it from there.

No, actually the gears equipment and software has taken complicated measurements. Amg is using gears measurements to use in videos as advertising for their business…just simple as that. They present data that fits their narrative the same as teachers in the past with video. Doesn’t mean their data is wrong, it just means they may not be applicable to you personally because of your physical makeup among other things. AMG may say 2+2 equals 4 which is true but so is 1.5 + 2.5 and 1+3 and so on and so forth. I can take measurements of Kevin Na who’s hips are square at impact and Jim Furyk with wide open hips and say the average of 2 tour winners is 45 degrees but most likely neither one of them would have won on tour with their hips at 45 degrees.

 

I take nothing on face value and over the years as there have been plenty of things that instructors on this forum and in instruction as a whole have preached only to be proven wrong, like the reverse K setup. 

Personally, I value everyones opinion and push back because you never get to think critically about a subject if you just take someone’s word for it. Everything is up for debate as far as I’m concerned and generally I come from the opposite starting point than most so I get more pushback than most and I’m cool with that. 

The instruction forum has always been an argumentative group and I think that’s a positive. If people want to just see positive slap on the back comments they can just read the bot comments under the videos. I think that’s if you post a video on this forum, you are asking people to video it a given their personal take on it and that may include personal experience that runs counter to the video. 

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

 

No, actually the gears equipment and software has taken complicated measurements. Amg is using gears measurements to use in videos as advertising for their business…just simple as that. They present data that fits their narrative the same as teachers in the past with video. Doesn’t mean their data is wrong, it just means they may not be applicable to you personally because of your physical makeup among other things. AMG may say 2+2 equals 4 which is true but so is 1.5 + 2.5 and 1+3 and so on and so forth. I can take measurements of Kevin Na who’s hips are square at impact and Jim Furyk with wide open hips and say the average of 2 tour winners is 45 degrees but most likely neither one of them would have won on tour with their hips at 45 degrees.

 

I take nothing on face value and over the years as there have been plenty of things that instructors on this forum and in instruction as a whole have preached only to be proven wrong, like the reverse K setup. 

Personally, I value everyones opinion and push back because you never get to think critically about a subject if you just take someone’s word for it. Everything is up for debate as far as I’m concerned and generally I come from the opposite starting point than most so I get more pushback than most and I’m cool with that. 

The instruction forum has always been an argumentative group and I think that’s a positive. If people want to just see positive slap on the back comments they can just read the bot comments under the videos. I think that’s if you post a video on this forum, you are asking people to video it a given their personal take on it and that may include personal experience that runs counter to the video. 

No.  You’re being petty and pedantic in this post pointing the gears equipment measuring it vs the AMG guys.

 

your arguement in general is like your saying the earth is flat.  People disagree and say we know it’s round and it’s been proven.  Then you say yeah but Florida is flat so it not all round.

[KD1]

16 minutes ago, airjammer said:

AMG may say 2+2 equals 4 which is true but so is 1.5 + 2.5 and 1+3 and so on and so forth. I can take measurements of Kevin Na who’s hips are square at impact and Jim Furyk with wide open hips and say the average of 2 tour winners is 45 degrees

 

You're looking at the mean, AMG is looking at the mode.

[sundaypins]

3 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

You're looking at the mean, AMG is looking at the mode.

 

But don't they sneak in mode value as a range?  

[Valtiel]

26 minutes ago, airjammer said:

 

I can take measurements of Kevin Na who’s hips are square at impact...

Na is a pretty "tour average" at being double digit degrees open, if we're being accurate. 



Albeit with a touch of "hump". 

[airjammer]

20 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

No.  You’re being petty and pedantic in this post pointing the gears equipment measuring it vs the AMG guys.

 

your arguement in general is like your saying the earth is flat.  People disagree and say we know it’s round and it’s been proven.  Then you say yeah but Florida is flat so it not all round.

No what I’m saying is that some people believe the government when they say inflation is 2.5% or whatever they say, when in fact my home insurance went up  20% this year and ribeye steaks that I buy went from $15.99 a pound to $21.99 this year and those are 2 small examples and I have 0 examples of anything in my life getting cheaper. 
 

You can believe all you want just because of some data..me personally I think its bunk and I am willing to say it’s bunk.😂

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, airjammer said:

No what I’m saying is that some people believe the government when they say inflation is 2.5% or whatever they say, when in fact my home insurance went up  20% this year and ribeye steaks that I buy went from $15.99 a pound to $21.99 this year and those are 2 small examples and I have 0 examples of anything in my life getting cheaper. 
 

You can believe all you want just because of some data..me personally I think its bunk and I am willing to say it’s bunk.😂

Yeah man….

[airjammer]

6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Na is a pretty "tour average" at being double digit degrees open, if we're being accurate. 



Albeit with a touch of "hump". 

Eye of the beholder 

[MK7Golf21]

The video was pretty good for what it is measuring, pga tour players probably average 45 degree's open with the hips at impact. The arms would have to be on the right side of the body to hit it at the target and they would technically be swinging right of your body alignment at impact.

 

The trick would be getting your everyday golfer to get their hips open 45 at impact to actually swing the arms that way. Maybe they are saying that attempting to swing with the arms on the right side of the body and out to the right will cause your hips to be open around 45 at impact? Otherwise, that ball is going right. 

 

I think the true goal of the video was to explain that pro's aren't swinging their hands in front of their body (midline) which can be sort of an illusion. I would think this would cause the hips to stall out a bunch.

Edited July 30 by MK7Golf21

[airjammer]

15 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

The video was pretty good for what it is measuring, pga tour players probably average 45 degree's open with the hips at impact. The arms would have to be on the right side of the body to hit it at the target and they would technically be swinging right of your body alignment at impact.

 

The trick would be getting your everyday golfer to get their hips open 45 at impact to actually swing the arms that way. Maybe they are saying that attempting to swing with the arms on the right side of the body and out to the right will cause your hips to be open around 45 at impact? Otherwise, that ball is going right. 

 

I think the true goal of the video was to explain that pro's aren't swinging their hands in front of their body (midline) which can be sort of an illusion. I would think this would cause the hips to stall out a bunch.

I agree with your assessment. 
 

The hard part is that it’s going require kinematic sequence change for the vast majority of all recreational golfers. I hope someone one day creates a Robopro like golf machine that actually guides your body into these positions not the club. I coined a saying a long time ago, you can’t tell what something feels like if you’ve never felt it before. 

[Valtiel]

37 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Eye of the beholder 

That's still very similar the gif I posted compared to address:



This is not square. It's not super open, and maybe this edges towards being less than PGA tour average, but definitely not square when you look at where the hip joints are at impact. 

This is what square hips at impact looks like:

Edited July 30 by Valtiel

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

I can take measurements of Kevin Na who’s hips are square at impact and Jim Furyk with wide open hips and say the average of 2 tour winners is 45 degrees but most likely neither one of them would have won on tour with their hips at 45 degrees.

 

No one including AMG is denying there are outliers. They run a business, not a funded research body that can create instruction for everyone including those who want to play towards the extremes, and as such they teach towards the composite of what works. Most better players have open hips at impact, in a range from zero that mostly mirrors the equivalent of what they have in the backswing. Can you be a Na or Furyk and succeed? Yes, but you'll more easily play your best golf by grooving a motion that has fewer points of failure and more easily allows the body to apply force efficiently. Na and Furyk models aren't going to manage the same impact numbers as a swing that looks more like the composite. 

 

If you're a business looking to instruct players for the most success are you going to teach an outlier model or the composite that's easier to create motor patterns for and produces better smash while having more margin for error? 

[MK7Golf21]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I agree with your assessment. 
 

The hard part is that it’s going require kinematic sequence change for the vast majority of all recreational golfers. I hope someone one day creates a Robopro like golf machine that actually guides your body into these positions not the club. I coined a saying a long time ago, you can’t tell what something feels like if you’ve never felt it before. 

 

regarding kinematic sequence, I got on a 3d measuring device many years back on the system with all the wires and we were looking at my kinematic sequence. Was one of Manzella's guys. He was telling me that there is a kinematic sequence that looks good on paper and makes sense but the pro's are all over the place in their kinematic sequence when measured on the system. This was like 10 years ago.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

regarding kinematic sequence, I got on a 3d measuring device many years back on the system with all the wires and we were looking at my kinematic sequence. Was one of Manzella's guys. He was telling me that there is a kinematic sequence that looks good on paper and makes sense but the pro's are all over the place in their kinematic sequence when measured on the system. This was like 10 years ago.

 

I don't know what you saw or the context, but if you watch TPI videos, or Dr. Kwon videos, etc.… I don't think you'd describe what they see day in and day out from the game's best players as "all over the place."

 

Maybe you were looking at something a little different than those kinematic sequences… but as with most things in golf, the game's best all tend to be within a small window or range in terms of when and how much they do things.

[MK7Golf21]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I don't know what you saw or the context, but if you watch TPI videos, or Dr. Kwon videos, etc.… I don't think you'd describe what they see day in and day out from the game's best players as "all over the place."

 

Maybe you were looking at something a little different than those kinematic sequences… but as with most things in golf, the game's best all tend to be within a small window or range in terms of when and how much they do things.

yeah, I just remember him making that comment when he was trying to improve my sequence. He did have some good advice on how to improve my sequence though. 

[Pnwpingi210]

37 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

That's still very similar the gif I posted compared to address:



This is not square. It's not super open, and maybe this edges towards being less than PGA tour average, but definitely not square when you look at where the hip joints are at impact. 

This is what square hips at impact looks like:

These dudes are all upper core!

 

 Now we know

[jaffabell]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

 

No, actually the gears equipment and software has taken complicated measurements. Amg is using gears measurements to use in videos as advertising for their business…just simple as that. They present data that fits their narrative the same as teachers in the past with video. Doesn’t mean their data is wrong, it just means they may not be applicable to you personally because of your physical makeup among other things. AMG may say 2+2 equals 4 which is true but so is 1.5 + 2.5 and 1+3 and so on and so forth. I can take measurements of Kevin Na who’s hips are square at impact and Jim Furyk with wide open hips and say the average of 2 tour winners is 45 degrees but most likely neither one of them would have won on tour with their hips at 45 degrees.

 

I take nothing on face value and over the years as there have been plenty of things that instructors on this forum and in instruction as a whole have preached only to be proven wrong, like the reverse K setup. 

Personally, I value everyones opinion and push back because you never get to think critically about a subject if you just take someone’s word for it. Everything is up for debate as far as I’m concerned and generally I come from the opposite starting point than most so I get more pushback than most and I’m cool with that. 

The instruction forum has always been an argumentative group and I think that’s a positive. If people want to just see positive slap on the back comments they can just read the bot comments under the videos. I think that’s if you post a video on this forum, you are asking people to video it a given their personal take on it and that may include personal experience that runs counter to the video. 

Im curious about the reverse K setup reference, as I know Porzak raves about it. What would you say are the negatives with a reverse K setup? I've often wondered why he says its the best thing ever but others say its bad news, does it hinder getting to the trail side properly? 

[airjammer]

12 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

No one including AMG is denying there are outliers. They run a business, not a funded research body that can create instruction for everyone including those who want to play towards the extremes, and as such they teach towards the composite of what works. Most better players have open hips at impact, in a range from zero that mostly mirrors the equivalent of what they have in the backswing. Can you be a Na or Furyk and succeed? Yes, but you'll more easily play your best golf by grooving a motion that has fewer points of failure and more easily allows the body to apply force efficiently. Na and Furyk models aren't going to manage the same impact numbers as a swing that looks more like the composite. 

 

If you're a business looking to instruct players for the most success are you going to teach an outlier model or the composite that's easier to create motor patterns for and produces better smash while having more margin for error? 

Honestly, I think if you look at current golf instruction business, I’d pick an outlier, it seems to have worked amazingly well for Gankas from a pure money perspective. 
 

 On the other hand, it’s extremely safe to say like Mayo… I’m not going get you a position to possibly hit good shots, i’m going to get you a position that it’s mathematically probable that you will have good shots. That hasn’t seemed to have worked out so far for Mayo in the full swing instruction world and I kind of feel that’s what AMG’s motto is. I understand it but I feel it’s the safe choice when you really don’t know what makes a swing truly work. Which I fully admit that I don’t and never will. I believe that Butch is probably the only one that truly does, which probably isn’t fair to all

other instructors. Everyone else just gets everyone into accepted positions. I’m sure it happens but it’s about impossible to find someone who Butch made worse. 
 

The ability to make someone better is what separates the great instructors from the not great instructors. It’s not just information but a lot of trust.
 

 There is nothing in that video that is going to make anyone better as it’s not a matchup video..it’s just an advertisement for their business. It’s their business and they don’t owe anyone something for free. It creates discussion and threads like this funnel people to their channel, website, and facility. 
 

 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

Im curious about the reverse K setup reference, as I know Porzak raves about it. What would you say are the negatives with a reverse K setup? I've often wondered why he says its the best thing ever but others say its bad news, does it hinder getting to the trail side properly? 

 

That feels off topic for this thread, especially given a quick search reveals…

• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/265400-reverse-k-setup/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1097082-reverse-k-setup…anyone-ever-said-screw-it/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1095450-backwards-k-spine-tilt/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/804272-help-w-weight-distribution-on-reverse-k-set-up/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1124948-reverse-k-set-up-question/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1210252-questions-regarding-reverse-k-setup/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/269986-slicefixer-reverse-k-position/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1571562-reverse-k-at-setup/
• https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/930494-reverse-k-question-and-weight-slicefixers/

 

That said, do what you want. I'll share this while being fully aware it's an average alone, and when I teach it, I look at ranges/windows:

 

Spoiler

 

 

21 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Which I fully admit that I don’t and never will.

 

One who is aware of this might ask more questions and make fewer statements. I do want to thank you for validating my recent decision, though. I appreciate it, AJ!

 

Edited July 30 by iacas
Added Picture

[airjammer]

42 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

Im curious about the reverse K setup reference, as I know Porzak raves about it. What would you say are the negatives with a reverse K setup? I've often wondered why he says its the best thing ever but others say its bad news, does it hinder getting to the trail side properly? 

It’s all in the magnitude. I’ve been here for a long time and at one time slicefixer, Dfw1500, Fortworth Pro among others were teaching a pronounced Hogan like reverse K setup. Once Forthworth Pro got actual data from Jon Sinclair he realized that nobody on tour does that. 
 

Most pros only have the shoulder tilt because their trail hand is lower than the left. 

 

[GoGoErky]

52 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I believe that Butch is probably the only one that truly does, which probably isn’t fair to all

other instructors. Everyone else just gets everyone into accepted positions. I’m sure it happens but it’s about impossible to find someone who Butch made worse. 

Thats far com fair considering two of the instructors posting here and former instructors have some high level juniors they have taught, still teach along with working so the touring pros.

 

What accosted positions are you referring too? Setup/address it each of the positions throughout the swing?

[KD1]

55 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Could you decode this graphic a bit? I'm thinking bottom labels 1 through 7 are meant to be P1 through P7?

[MK7Golf21]

nm

Edited July 30 by MK7Golf21

[Snarkesor]

The real problem with the AMG the video is that they are denigrating the "wipe" move as being something simply like shoving the arms forwards linearly, when Tyler Ferrell who coined the wipe term, has always been explicit that it occurs along with rotation and is not simply a linear movement. Are they really suggesting that the arms don't extend through the release?

[airjammer]

34 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Thats far com fair considering two of the instructors posting here and former instructors have some high level juniors they have taught, still teach along with working so the touring pros.

 

What accosted positions are you referring too? Setup/address it each of the positions throughout the swing?

I’m not going to make any friends but I put very little credence to having top level juniors and especially tour pros. Those individuals can succeed in spite of bad instruction as I don’t believe those type of players necessarily makes a coach a good coach. Tour players are born not made imo. Sure you can screw players up but the club is the best teacher and some players just have all the advantages like living in a climate where they can play 12 months out of the year. 

Scottie apparently had magic hands from the age of 7. How much structured instruction like, you must do it this way, do you think he really got? I believe that Randy Smith nudged him in certain directions but overall just kept an eye on him to prevent him from doing something crazy like reverse pivoting or something of that nature. 
 

How many people think Haney was a great coach…obviously he has some success for Tiger to even think about having him as a coach. Haney openly admitted that Tiger didn’t really listen to him sometimes and wouldn’t do some things.  
 

Again this is just thoughts and theory for discussion purposes. I’m absolutely sure I’m wrong about things I have said. 

[KD1]

28 minutes ago, Snarkesor said:

Are they really suggesting that the arms don't extend through the release?

Not what I gathered at all. The opposite. They're saying from the player perspective the swing extends 45 degrees off the shoulder line. so if you isolated the arm movement and took out any rotation the swing path would look like a circle to first base. 

[Pnwpingi210]

[PedronNiall]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I’m not going to make any friends but I put very little credence to having top level juniors and especially tour pros. Those individuals can succeed in spite of bad instruction as I don’t believe those type of players necessarily makes a coach a good coach. Tour players are born not made imo. Sure you can screw players up but the club is the best teacher and some players just have all the advantages like living in a climate where they can play 12 months out of the year. 

Scottie apparently had magic hands from the age of 7. How much structured instruction like, you must do it this way, do you think he really got? I believe that Randy Smith nudged him in certain directions but overall just kept an eye on him to prevent him from doing something crazy like reverse pivoting or something of that nature. 
 

How many people think Haney was a great coach…obviously he has some success for Tiger to even think about having him as a coach. Haney openly admitted that Tiger didn’t really listen to him sometimes and wouldn’t do some things.  
 

Again this is just thoughts and theory for discussion purposes. I’m absolutely sure I’m wrong about things I have said. 

 

Golf is not magic, as much as you might be convinced the swing can never be understood nor truly taught through study and analysis but only by a single instructor. You can go look at the TPI vids where what they find with players aligns with what their instructors explained and then through measurement they are able to go into even more depth about what's happening and needs to happen in a few minutes. Things like that are beyond what can be fully discerned in multiple traditional or even video recorded lessons in many cases.

 

Take a look at Clark's session where they are able to cite the same thing Butch identified then tackle it in only a few minutes because they can look at far more inputs than ball flight, sound, and positions. 

 

Could also cite Hoffman having an issue with his grip addressed in 10 minutes because 3D gave him and his coach an established baseline to work from. Or when TPI and one of their associates are able to see on plates that various pros and ams weren't using their lower body correctly and in a single session again addressed things that aren't readily seen by the eyes or on video. Not going to link them all since you only believe in magic, but they're available if you want to see. 

 

The pros and ams who avail themselves of modern tech are able to achieve increased efficiency that working solo with traditional instruction never emerged or didn't emerge in nearly as much clarity or nearly as quickly. No idea why golfers are so hard up about ignoring the data when literally every other sport is steeped in it, not only for improving performance but also avoiding injury. 

[sundaypins]

2 hours ago, jaffabell said:

Im curious about the reverse K setup reference, as I know Porzak raves about it. What would you say are the negatives with a reverse K setup? I've often wondered why he says its the best thing ever but others say its bad news, does it hinder getting to the trail side properly? 

 

No negatives if sequenced properly,  and finding trail side can be easier than the more stacked or centered options. 

[Snarkesor]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

Not what I gathered at all. The opposite. They're saying from the player perspective the swing extends 45 degrees off the shoulder line. so if you isolated the arm movement and took out any rotation the swing path would look like a circle to first base. 

In other words the “wipe” move