Creating space is bunk!

[Brokensticks]

These kind of threads always turn into the same debate. 
 

A. People with the opinion there is one way to swing a golfclub, can be good players despite their ”flaws”.

 

B. People thinking there are multiple ways and your best way depends on how you are built. Your best and most repeatable pattern can be unorthodox.

 

There are knowledgeable people supporting both these theories so maybe we should just acccept we dont know, yet. 

[virtuoso]

9 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Are there people who don’t want others to get better so they keep their instructor secret so other players don’t go see them and get better thus rendering the original student back to their previous rank within the group. Possibly 

 

Could it be that if too many people go to their instructor because of a particular students success, the instructor will have less time for them or will charge more per hour thus making the instructor unobtainable for them. Possibly as I’ve personally seen this happen in my area. 

Oooh, juicy. Now that this thread has dipped into the conspiratorial, its regained my interest.

Edited July 31 by virtuoso

[rsballer10]

6 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Let’s take this forum for example, how many people come here and sing praises of xyz instructor for helping them shoot lower scores. It’s almost unheard of on this forum which I believe it is the largest in the world. Why is that?  It’s an interesting question with many potential answers. 

I don't know if you've heard of this guy named Monte, but this forum has been singing his praises for over a decade.

 

6 minutes ago, airjammer said:

No it’s opinion based on my observations. I’m not stating anything as absolute fact, just my observations so others can give their opinions or stats or whatever as discussion to counter. It’s my fault, as I write very matter of factly. 

I made this mistake - the problem with intuition is it's only correct when it aligns with data. If the data points to a conclusion that doesn't make sense - test again.

8 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Golfers are a weird group in general. My best friend is playing his best golf of his life at 56 years old. I suggested that he get 3d analyzed so that when it goes south, he’ll have a road map to follow to hopefully find his way back. He won’t do it and he’s close to a genius who makes mega bucks in his field. Golfers are just weird individuals. 

is he a janitor at Harvard by chance?

[GoGoErky]

5 minutes ago, airjammer said:

No it’s opinion based on my observations. I’m not stating anything as absolute fact, just my observations so others can give their opinions or stats or whatever as discussion to counter. It’s my fault, as I write very matter of factly. 
 

Do you personally know someone who has been 3d evaluated and made great strides in an area in which they haven’t been in the past? I’m certain that many people have but such stories aren’t really widespread as you would think they are. 

One can have their own opinion but not their own facts. We know that people have been on 3d and made success. If they weren’t then instructors who have the tools and the skills to use them wouldn’t be as successful as they are. AMG has a waitlist so that might be an indication of the results.

 

TPi has plenty of examples of golfers who got better as result.

 

Just because successes aren’t broadcast don’t mean they aren’t happening. Remember we are very small minority of the golfing population. 
 

I do know someone who has been on 3d. I also know people who have been to TPI for the full experience of getting evaluated thru their assessments.

 

10 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Let’s take this forum for example, how many people come here and sing praises of xyz instructor for helping them shoot lower scores. It’s almost unheard of on this forum which I believe it is the largest in the world. Why is that?  It’s an interesting question with many potential answers. 

There are plenty of those who has sung the praises of iteach, Monte and several other instructors who have helped them get better. There are others who don’t like to talk about their improvements or their great play. See Monte’s post about Sean.

 

11 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Could it be that if too many people go to their instructor because of a particular students success, the instructor will have less time for them or will charge more per hour thus making the instructor unobtainable for them. Possibly as I’ve personally seen this happen in my area. 

I don’t know any instructors who charge more for one student compared to another. That may be different for a pro vs an amateur, but everyday lessons for the same level of instruction I have yet to see. If it happens that’s probably not a good instructor. 
 

 

[rsballer10]

6 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

These kind of threads always turn into the same debate. 
 

A. People with the opinion there is one way to swing a golfclub, can be good players despite their ”flaws”.

 

B. People thinking there are multiple ways and your best way depends on how you are built. Your best and most repeatable pattern can be unorthodox.

 

There are knowledgeable people supporting both these theories so maybe we should just acccept we dont know, yet. 

There are instructors that teach a single model or pattern, but I don't think anyone claims there is (1) way to swing a club. The claim is that MOST good golf swings have a lot in common, and that outliers make bad models.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, ALIF said:

What did you do to get him into this position? What feels did you give him or what did he change in his thinking?  Just asking for a friend.😀

 

We changed the way and time in which he gets forward, which cascaded up to affect the sequencing of when and where the arms are… and then we worked on A/P and verticals with the left leg. He had to feel that he began doing that last thing at the start of his downswing. Like literally P4.1.

 

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

I honestly think it's a defence mechanism or wishful thinking and I understand why. If you have swung a certain way or followed a certain coach and then data drops that questions it you would prefer it to be wrong or convince yourself that the other way is just as valid.

 

Or more valid, or that your feels aren't truly real.

I've shared this story before. I had two lessons, back-to-back, in which I prescribed the same mechanical thing. The golfers had opposite feelings. (You see this sometimes when you have to work on someone getting across the line or laid off - some percentage of golfers will feel like the club is moving across the line when they're laying it off more or vice versa — I think because their hands and arms are nearly 180° from where they started).

 

Anyway, I've seen some people get upset when their feel — which works for them and produces a better golf swing — they learn isn't "real." For example, how much you push off the trail leg during the downswing.

 

I remain convinced that about 80% of arguments (and I almost always use that word the same way you would in a court of law or a debate — not to imply aggressive or emotional) boil down to "feel ain't real." That number may be lower than what I have previously said, and may continue to drop, because 2D ≠ 3D is growing in size in terms of its contribution to swing theory arguments.

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

What data do you have to support this?

 

He has no actual data to support this. He hasn't seen my guy MK who comes once or twice a year to get on GEARS and then works at home based on what we learn go from an 8 to a scratch in like three years while being a husband, a father to twin girls, and having a busy career.

 

He doesn't see or process things like the image I shared earlier (and here below) of a 40-something guy who wants to play on the Champions Tour.

 

And he doesn't care. He posts 2D pictures and talks about how things used to be. He misses the clear contradiction between saying these two things:

• What we have now is not better than what we used to have.
• We're still learning about things and things in the future will surely be better than what we have now.

It's a joke, except it's not funny.

 

Spoiler

 

56 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Where did the goalposts go? Oh, you moved them. 

 

Yep. The Playbook (for many of this type) includes healthy doses of:

• Goalpost shifting
• Flat out ignoring posts you don't like or find inconvenient
• Feel ain't real/2D imagery
• Logical fallacies (this covers a lot, including appeals to authority, straw men, etc.)

 

46 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s obvious you are anti instruction trolling at this point.

 

I'm still puzzled as to how someone will say something like (barely paraphrased): "I fully admit that I don’t and never will understand how the golf swing works" is aware enough to say something like that, while still arguing with measurements, 3D, etc. from people who have spent their lives dedicated to understanding this stuff and isn't just reading and occasionally asking questions.

 

21 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Agreed.  The bunk threads are designed to start bickering, not discussion .

 

Agreed. They're generally troll threads that rely on vague concepts like when "early" is or based on what one person needs to do or, worse yet, needs to feel like they do in their swing, applied generally. (Or attempted to be applied generally.)

 

9 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

I don’t know any instructors who charge more for one student compared to another. That may be different for a pro vs an amateur, but everyday lessons for the same level of instruction I have yet to see. If it happens that’s probably not a good instructor. 

 

I think you misread that part.

 

If I'm starting out and I charge $x/lesson, and I get popular and my lesson book fills, I can charge 1.5x, then 2x, then 3x… and still keep filling my lesson book (or taking fewer lessons while maintaining the same revenue). I think he was saying that.

[airjammer]

24 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s obvious you are anti instruction trolling at this point.

 

 

Oh god no…I’ve taken several in person and online lessons over the years. My goal is to get better like everyone else. That video didn’t further that pursuit for anyone imo..just advertisement. 
 

I don’t have an issue with anyone..my goal would be to have open discussions about whatever subject matter is presented without some going “but they told me there was data” even without presenting said data. Not only that but people willing to go along with unseen data and act like you shot their momma if you don’t just sing their praises like they parted the red sea. 
 

We’ve had to “major” events since I’ve been on this forum and they all went exactly the same way. You have the Jacobs 3d alpha wars in which they basically said “we have data that said x” you are either a believer or a denier.
 

Then we had the AMG/Gankas keep your hands up debate which was basically devolved into the same thing. 
 

In the end people are still teaching what they want even though someone has data that says they should be teaching something else. Are these instructors anti data and unable to teach…nope. 
 

I’m not a flat earther…I’m a “not that long ago doctors told pre diabetics that eating carbs wasn’t harmful”, and we know know that was absolutely the worst thing someone can do and you can actually reverse some of that damage but I’m also open to the fact at some point in the future we may learn you can’t actually reverse the damage the way we previously thought.
 

Everything is open to debate. 

[airjammer]

20 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Oooh, juicy. Now that this thread has dipped into the conspiratorial, its regained my interest.

Well go ahead don’t just tease us. State an opinion and get 🔥  by the mob😂

[TheDeanAbides]

29 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

These kind of threads always turn into the same debate. 
 

A. People with the opinion there is one way to swing a golfclub, can be good players despite their ”flaws”.

 

B. People thinking there are multiple ways and your best way depends on how you are built. Your best and most repeatable pattern can be unorthodox.

 

There are knowledgeable people supporting both these theories so maybe we should just acccept we dont know, yet. 

Not true at all. Nobody on these forums suggests that there is only one way to swing a club. Show me where anyone has. 

 

What is suggested is that for the majority of players - especially those with obvious flaws that lead to them playing at best average golf - it's better to be in an acceptable range of motions. Some parts of the swing have more leeway for good golf than others, some are okay with certain matchups, and some are just plain bad because they require inefficient compensations. 

 

 

[airjammer]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

We changed the way and time in which he gets forward, which cascaded up to affect the sequencing of when and where the arms are… and then we worked on A/P and verticals with the left leg. He had to feel that he began doing that last thing at the start of his downswing. Like literally P4.1.

 

 

Or more valid, or that your feels aren't truly real.

I've shared this story before. I had two lessons, back-to-back, in which I prescribed the same mechanical thing. The golfers had opposite feelings. (You see this sometimes when you have to work on someone getting across the line or laid off - some percentage of golfers will feel like the club is moving across the line when they're laying it off more or vice versa — I think because their hands and arms are nearly 180° from where they started).

 

Anyway, I've seen some people get upset when their feel — which works for them and produces a better golf swing — they learn isn't "real." For example, how much you push off the trail leg during the downswing.

 

I remain convinced that about 80% of arguments (and I almost always use that word the same way you would in a court of law or a debate — not to imply aggressive or emotional) boil down to "feel ain't real." That number may be lower than what I have previously said, and may continue to drop, because 2D ≠ 3D is growing in size in terms of its contribution to swing theory arguments.

 

 

He has no actual data to support this. He hasn't seen my guy MK who comes once or twice a year to get on GEARS and then works at home based on what we learn go from an 8 to a scratch in like three years while being a husband, a father to twin girls, and having a busy career.

 

He doesn't see or process things like the image I shared earlier (and here below) of a 40-something guy who wants to play on the Champions Tour.

 

And he doesn't care. He posts 2D pictures and talks about how things used to be. He misses the clear contradiction between saying these two things:

• What we have now is not better than what we used to have.
• We're still learning about things and things in the future will surely be better than what we have now.

It's a joke, except it's not funny.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Yep. The Playbook (for many of this type) includes healthy doses of:

• Goalpost shifting
• Flat out ignoring posts you don't like or find inconvenient
• Feel ain't real/2D imagery
• Logical fallacies (this covers a lot, including appeals to authority, straw men, etc.)

 

 

I'm still puzzled as to how someone will say something like (barely paraphrased): "I fully admit that I don’t and never will understand how the golf swing works" is aware enough to say something like that, while still arguing with measurements, 3D, etc. from people who have spent their lives dedicated to understanding this stuff and isn't just reading and occasionally asking questions.

 

 

Agreed. They're generally troll threads that rely on vague concepts like when "early" is or based on what one person needs to do or, worse yet, needs to feel like they do in their swing, applied generally. (Or attempted to be applied generally.)

 

 

I think you misread that part.

 

If I'm starting out and I charge $x/lesson, and I get popular and my lesson book fills, I can charge 1.5x, then 2x, then 3x… and still keep filling my lesson book (or taking fewer lessons while maintaining the same revenue). I think he was saying that.

I don’t believe I moved goal posts, as the thread evolved the subject changed from this particular video to just why golf instruction hasn’t been as successful as other sports and it may be even perceived that golf instruction hasn’t been as successful. 
 

if anyone can say they understand exactly how the golf swing works and they aren’t the most sought after golf coach in the world…they are either delusional, the worst communicator, or the worst promoter of all time. 
 

Anyway, if someone wants to continue this conversation they can just DM me as I will be happy to converse. 

[virtuoso]

28 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Well go ahead don’t just tease us. State an opinion and get 🔥  by the mob😂

Oh, that’s easy. There are no conspiracies. Everyone is too dumb, and no one can keep a secret. Look at your own posts—you can’t help but tell everyone that will ever visit this forum everything that is crossing your mind at every moment.

 

….but I do enjoy hearing people talk about them. 🙂

Edited July 31 by virtuoso

[NosajNeelik]

22 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Are you calling me personally a pathetic dick? I'm not sure how that's helpful in any other way than you being the forum police. Maybe you should consider thinking before you type.

Oops

Edited July 31 by NosajNeelik

[NosajNeelik]

37 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Everything is open to debate.

No it’s not. Facts are indisputable. Spinach is green. The earth is round. The sun is really hot.
 

Are those “debatable” ??

[getitdaily]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

What data do you have to support this?

 

AMG in a recent video said they have more gears data on amateurs than they do pros.

 

again what data supports this?

Easy...there are less than 50 GEARS systems in use in thr US. Most recent estimate is that there are 32 systems in use, but that data is a little old. 

 

The cost of a lesson on GEARS is not cheap. 

 

The data is clear that not many people get lessons where GEARS type tech is used. 

[Brokensticks]

15 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Not true at all. Nobody on these forums suggests that there is only one way to swing a club. Show me where anyone has. 

 

What is suggested is that for the majority of players - especially those with obvious flaws that lead to them playing at best average golf - it's better to be in an acceptable range of motions. Some parts of the swing have more leeway for good golf than others, some are okay with certain matchups, and some are just plain bad because they require inefficient compensations. 

 

 

Its more about the concept. 

 

Its like the question which already has been asked here and sums it up pretty good. Is Scottie world #1 because he lets a few things be unorthodox or is he leaving gas in the tank? There are also levels to this ofc. AMG talking about big ranges that are fine (like you mentioned), MyTPI talking about measurements finding the most efficient swing for you and to more extreme examples of Mike Adams "The 9 archetypes of golf swings" where very unorthodox trail arm folding patters could be considered the best way for you to move. 

 

In my mind the above is not the same thing as "every amateur in here should aim to swing like Adam Scott". Its very confusing for amateurs like myself.

[TheDeanAbides]

Just now, Brokensticks said:

Its more about the concept. 

 

Its like the question which already has been asked here and sums it up pretty good. Is Scottie world #1 because he lets a few things be unorthodox or is he leaving gas in the tank? There are also levels to this ofc. AMG talking about big ranges that are fine (like you mentioned), MyTPI talking about measurements finding the most efficient swing for you and to more extreme examples of Mike Adams "The 9 archetypes of golf swings" where very unorthodox trail arm folding patters could be considered the best way for you to move. 

 

In my mind the above is not the same thing as "every amateur in here should aim to swing like Adam Scott". Its very confusing for amateurs like myself.

Again, nobody said everyone should swing like Adam Scott. Adam Scott is used as a model for someone with a very neutral swing (mostly). 

 

Scottie is world #1 because he has a repeatable action, elite game management, a great mental game and he makes more putts than he used to. You still don't teach his move to ams or say, "Yeah, it's fine for you to make that quirky move even though you can't break 90 cos Scottie also makes some quirky moves."

 

It's just arguing for limitations and staying stuck. 

[TheDeanAbides]

14 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

No it’s not. Facts are indisputable. Spinach is green. The earth is round. The sun is really hot.
 

Are those “debatable” ??

Well, spinach isn't green, it just reflects green light, and the Earth isn't exactly round, but now I'm being unnecessarily pedantic. No wonder I have no friends! 

[Golfbeat]

14 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

No it’s not. Facts are indisputable. Spinach is green. The earth is round. The sun is really hot.
 

Are those “debatable” ??

 

Spinach is not green to a dog. The earth is not perfectly round. The sun is maybe not so hot compared to other stars.

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Spinach is not green to a dog. The earth is not perfectly round. The sun is maybe not so hot compared to other stars.

I'm glad I'm not the only pedant here! 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

Spinach is not green to a dog. The earth is not perfectly round. The sun is maybe not so hot compared to other stars.

 

You've almost made his point for him. These are the kinds of lengths people have to go to in order to try to salvage a shred of the point they try to make.

 

We're not talking about dogs playing golf (or how a dog sees things), when we say round it's to counter the argument that it's flat (and nobody says perfectly spherical), and "hot" is relative to general human existence, not to another sun or star somewhere else.

Edited July 31 by iacas

[golferdude54]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

I’m a “not that long ago doctors told pre diabetics that eating carbs wasn’t harmful”, and we know know that was absolutely the worst thing someone can do and you can actually reverse some of that damage but I’m also open to the fact at some point in the future we may learn you can’t actually reverse the damage the way we previously thought.

 

That explains everything. You're suffering from a macronutrient deficiency and your carbohydrate-deprived brain is making you argue with everyone on online golf forums! 

[NosajNeelik]

37 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Well, spinach isn't green, it just reflects green light, and the Earth isn't exactly round, but now I'm being unnecessarily pedantic. No wonder I have no friends! 

Yawn

[NosajNeelik]

37 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Spinach is not green to a dog. The earth is not perfectly round. The sun is maybe not so hot compared to other stars.

Thanks for proving my point. 

[NosajNeelik]

20 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

 

That explains everything. You're suffering from a macronutrient deficiency and your carbohydrate-deprived brain is making you argue with everyone on online golf forums! 

Yea vegetables are so bad for you 

[airjammer]

39 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Oh, that’s easy. There are no conspiracies. Everyone is too dumb, and no one can keep a secret. Look at your own posts—you can’t help but tell everyone that will ever visit this forum everything that is crossing your mind at every moment.

 

….but I do enjoy hearing people talk about them. 🙂

Absolutely true..it’s a discussion forum. If you aren’t allowed to give you opinions or different views or facts this instruction forum about might as well be a new YouTube video list with comments closed. On top of that it might was well say in the listing what channel sponsored the video so when someone is all screwed up by going down a rabbit hole that never fit them…they know who to go visit to fix them😂

We already have a section for posting your own swing videos so what exactly is this section for?  As long as I have been here, it’s been swing theory discussion. 
 

Even though it might not come across in text…all of this is friendly conversation that ai expect push back in hopes of diving deeper into the subject matter. Otherwise, why even comment at all?

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, NosajNeelik said:

Yawn

You know that I was kidding around, right? 

[KD1]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

My goal is to get better like everyone else. That video didn’t further that pursuit for anyone imo.

 

Jury is still out. While I thought I was familiar with AMG's swing off the right side concepts that video provided a slightly different perspective that I find pretty interesting. 

[airjammer]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

3 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Jury is still out. While I thought I was familiar with AMG's swing off the right side concepts that video provided a slightly different perspective that I find pretty interesting. 

Care to expand on that comment as in what is interesting?

[virtuoso]

15 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Absolutely true..it’s a discussion forum. If you aren’t allowed to give you opinions or different views or facts this instruction forum about might as well be a new YouTube video list with comments closed. On top of that it might was well say in the listing what channel sponsored the video so when someone is all screwed up by going down a rabbit hole that never fit them…they know who to go visit to fix them😂

We already have a section for posting your own swing videos so what exactly is this section for?  As long as I have been here, it’s been swing theory discussion. 
 

Even though it might not come across in text…all of this is friendly conversation that ai expect push back in hopes of diving deeper into the subject matter. Otherwise, why even comment at all?

Of course, I’m not saying it’s bad. I’m just saying there are no secrets.  Everyone can’t wait to tell you what they think.

[dpc]

2 hours ago, airjammer said:

 

Do you personally know someone who has been 3d evaluated and made great strides in an area in which they haven’t been in the past? I’m certain that many people have but such stories aren’t really widespread as you would think they are. 

 

I'll take a swing at this one.  I don't know him personally, but virtually everyone on here knows of him: Mark Crossfield - popular YouTuber.  He made a series a few years ago where he was measured with all the tech available to him.  I don't believe he used Gears specifically, but was wired up like the devices TPI uses.  Plus force plates and GC Quad.  Just by using the data feedback from this tech he went from an accurate but relatively short (270?) driver to accurate and over 300 cruising distance.