The cause of suppination?

[SamParker]

New member :)

Hey,

Im a new member and 16 yrs old, been reading up alot about supination.
Im interested in what causes the supination because it feels to me like it is virtually impossible to acheive this position, but when I do... what a strike, i just cant seem to find the route cause of why I can and cant get that bowed left wrist.

A few days ago I came up with a swing thought that worked awesome, but havnt been able to replicate the result! - Coming down to the ball, hide the back of your left hand from the ball until the last second then show it.

That evening my ball striking was unbeleivable! But I cant seem to replicate that feeling again. Ive been told im a very handsy player. Might i need more body rotaion??

Cheers!

[Dariusz J.]

Hey,

 

Im a new member and 16 yrs old, been reading up alot about supination.

Im interested in what causes the supination because it feels to me like it is virtually impossible to acheive this position, but when I do... what a strike, i just cant seem to find the route cause of why I can and cant get that bowed left wrist.

 

A few days ago I came up with a swing thought that worked awesome, but havnt been able to replicate the result! - Coming down to the ball, hide the back of your left hand from the ball until the last second then show it.

 

That evening my ball striking was unbeleivable! But I cant seem to replicate that feeling again. Ive been told im a very handsy player. Might i need more body rotaion??

 

Cheers!

 

Are you asking about supination (anticlockwise forearm turn) or palmar flexion (lead wrist arching) ?

 

Cheers

[downtoscratch]

Sam,

At your age you are spending your time in the wrong arena, IMO. It's like trying to catch

lightning in a bottle this whole supination thing you are chasing. Fundamentals, that's the place you

want to be........... let the hands find their own way. The hands make admirable followers but disastrous leaders in any conscious way in the golf swing, again IMO. In answer to the only part of your post that was in question form........ yes to more rotation. Conscious active hand action begets

a stalled body rotation and you have been called handsy so the shoe apparently fits.

 

Here's how I'd sum up my thoughts on your chasing after supination.

 

In a good golf swing certain things are *caused* to happen while other things must be *allowed*.

Trouble arises whenever we try to *cause* that which we should *allow*. DTS

[kwantfm]

Are you asking about supination (anticlockwise forearm turn) or palmar flexion (lead wrist arching) ?

 

Thank goodness someone has the terminology right.

 

To add just a little, anticlockwise forearm rotation is supination of the left arm. It's probably easier to describe supination as palm down to palm up forearm rotation. Supination of the right arm is clockwise forearm rotation.

 

If we're talking to a left handed golfer we'd have to refer to pronation instead of supination.

[SamParker]

I meant palmar flexion

 

Sorry its all abit confusing for me! But I have found that everytime I hit the ball crips the palmar flexion occurs, but should it move naturally? Or is It just the product of the kinetic chain??

 

Thanks for the replies! :P

[Squish]

I meant palmar flexion

 

Sorry its all abit confusing for me! But I have found that everytime I hit the ball crips the palmar flexion occurs, but should it move naturally? Or is It just the product of the kinetic chain??

 

Thanks for the replies! :P

 

The left hand is in dorsal flexion (cupped at the top) when the right elbow is flexed.

As the right arm flexes to 90* in the slot, that reaction is what is putting the left into palmar flexion.

 

You supinate the left forearm through impact, as the right arm straights post impact.

This is a move that can certainly be cultivated, so keep at it.

You are compressing (capturing) the ball, you feel it explode off the face, not a collision, you are on the right track.

[dream_stryker]

You can also figure out to use your body (active) to make your ENTIRE left arm (from the shoulder down) supinate in reaction to the pivot. Then you'll be on your way to making bacon as we say down south. There are many ways to skin this cat so you are going to have to experiment on your own. You down even need to make full swings. Browse thru the 9-3 drill sub forum to get an idea of how others achieve this. You can also do a search on the "magic of the cupped wrist" thread by Dariusz. Good luck.

[SamParker]

Cheers Dream Stryker!

 

I have 2 more questions...

 

1) Am I right in thinking that a perfectly struck golf ball would come out low?

 

2) Should the left wrist break down into a cupped positon at impact For flop shots?

[dream_stryker]

Cheers Dream Stryker!

 

I have 2 more questions...

 

1) Am I right in thinking that a perfectly struck golf ball would come out low?

 

2) Should the left wrist break down into a cupped positon at impact For flop shots?

 

No. A ball is perfectly struck when it has the trajectory and shape that the golfer intended for it to have. If you are turning the face down thru impact, you're taking loft off the club so your shots will be low. I set up with a vertical shaft and don't turn the face down into impact so a perfectly struck shot for me is a mid-height 3-5 yard fade.

 

 

setting up with a cupped wrist and maintaining it throughout the swing for a specialty high shot is acceptable if you practice it ALOT. I would NEVER attempt to come into the ball with a wrist cupping motion. Too much to go wrong.

 

If you have any other non-Hogan related questions try asking them on the main forum. There are lots of teachers there willing to help. Not as many venture into this neck of the woods as its fill with Hogan nuts. :man_in_love:

[tembolo1284]

Fun thread.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323281734' post='3905889']
Fun thread.
[/quote]

LOL!!! How the heck you found this

But this is quite short thread...

[dap]

Supination and palmar flexion in the golf swing is an intergrated move in the golf swing as Hogan indicated in his book.

There has been EMG studies done that may conclude that palmar flexion while swinging a club is more easily facilitated when using the muscles that supinate the forearm these being the biceps Brachii and the supinator (longus and brevis).

"Although neither of these actions move the wrist into either dorsiflexion or plantarflexion each share fascia and connective sheathes with the long wrist extensors and flexors. Supination of the lead arm (straight) will pull on the flexors on the palmar (untanned side) of the forearm and allow for a relaxed extensor mechanism giving you an easier time to bow the lead wrist with a CP release. "

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323312620' post='3908589']
Supination and palmar flexion in the golf swing is an intergrated move in the golf swing as Hogan indicated in his book.

There has been EMG studies done that may conclude that palmar flexion while swinging a club is more easily facilitated when using the muscles that supinate the forearm these being the biceps Brachii and the supinator (longus and brevis).

"Although neither of these actions move the wrist into either dorsiflexion or plantarflexion each share fascia and connective sheathes with the long wrist extensors and flexors. Supination of the lead arm (straight) will pull on the flexors on the palmar (untanned side) of the forearm and allow for a relaxed extensor mechanism giving you an easier time to bow the lead wrist with a CP release. "
[/quote]

Dap: really only thing you are able to do is that you copy someones text when you find something that fits to your ideas. You just don't have anatomic knowledge and understanding like me and Dariusz for examples. We really work with those things and they are two different moves and the other is not needed to make the other.

What I still wonder is that you keep on reading those texts, keep on posting them, but you don't spend five minutes to look at all those photos of Hogan after impact and bit before. You will not find those where the leading forearm supinates at impact and after it. You can find few where it's been pronated, and lot of those where it's about neutral, but not supinated.

I accept totally that when PF happens, there is also same kind of move in forearm muscles at least in EMG, because it only measures the activity, not the direction really. And not PF can make it, but when you put together UD and PF, there you are. I also accept that PF can be easier to do with sup nation, but that's not at all relevant here. It doesn't help your golf if it's easier to do and you are always 60yds left

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323315644' post='3908839']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323312620' post='3908589']
Supination and palmar flexion in the golf swing is an intergrated move in the golf swing as Hogan indicated in his book.

There has been EMG studies done that may conclude that palmar flexion while swinging a club is more easily facilitated when using the muscles that supinate the forearm these being the biceps Brachii and the supinator (longus and brevis).

"Although neither of these actions move the wrist into either dorsiflexion or plantarflexion each share fascia and connective sheathes with the long wrist extensors and flexors. Supination of the lead arm (straight) will pull on the flexors on the palmar (untanned side) of the forearm and allow for a relaxed extensor mechanism giving you an easier time to bow the lead wrist with a CP release. "
[/quote]

Dap: really only thing you are able to do is that you copy someones text when you find something that fits to your ideas. You just don't have anatomic knowledge and understanding like me and Dariusz for examples. We really work with those things and they are two different moves and the other is not needed to make the other.

What I still wonder is that you keep on reading those texts, keep on posting them, but you don't spend five minutes to look at all those photos of Hogan after impact and bit before. You will not find those where the leading forearm supinates at impact and after it. You can find few where it's been pronated, and lot of those where it's about neutral, but not supinated.

I accept totally that when PF happens, there is also same kind of move in forearm muscles at least in EMG, because it only measures the activity, not the direction really. And not PF can make it, but when you put together UD and PF, there you are. I also accept that PF can be easier to do with sup nation, but that's not at all relevant here. It doesn't help your golf if it's easier to do and you are always 60yds left
[/quote]
They are not "my" ideas.They are Hogan's and many others.

Yes I am quoting golow who has done EMG studies.You are basically saying that he is wrong and that he has no anatomical knowledge like youself.

3D machines are not 100% accurate and even if they were,they only tell part of the story.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323316465' post='3908879']
[
3D machines are not 100% accurate and even if they were,they only tell part of the story.
[/quote]

What the heck this got to do with 3D machines... just using one more possibility to throw mud on me?

This is getting crazier every moment..,

[golow]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323315644' post='3908839']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323312620' post='3908589']
Supination and palmar flexion in the golf swing is an intergrated move in the golf swing as Hogan indicated in his book.

There has been EMG studies done that may conclude that palmar flexion while swinging a club is more easily facilitated when using the muscles that supinate the forearm these being the biceps Brachii and the supinator (longus and brevis).

"Although neither of these actions move the wrist into either dorsiflexion or plantarflexion each share fascia and connective sheathes with the long wrist extensors and flexors. Supination of the lead arm (straight) will pull on the flexors on the palmar (untanned side) of the forearm and allow for a relaxed extensor mechanism giving you an easier time to bow the lead wrist with a CP release. "
[/quote]


I accept totally that when PF happens, there is also same kind of move in forearm muscles at least in EMG, because it only measures the activity, not the direction really.
[/quote]

Dap - some of those words are mine, but was posted to clarify what supination is and what happens easier mechanically as a result. You seem to be taking it out of context IMO. EMG indeed just registers muscle activation but in a pivot driven swing the supinators are isometric.

Hogan doesn't supinate. I only supinate when I quit and flip (fore right !!! ... Im lefty remember). Players who supinate will likely have a fast rate of closure generally. Some (?many) guys on tour have this release ... and the talent to make it work.

Go easy on Tee I think if you guys sat down you'd realize that you are visualizing different players swings entirely and simply have different nomenclature.

golow(TM)

[dap]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323317038' post='3908915']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323315644' post='3908839']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323312620' post='3908589']
Supination and palmar flexion in the golf swing is an intergrated move in the golf swing as Hogan indicated in his book.

There has been EMG studies done that may conclude that palmar flexion while swinging a club is more easily facilitated when using the muscles that supinate the forearm these being the biceps Brachii and the supinator (longus and brevis).

"Although neither of these actions move the wrist into either dorsiflexion or plantarflexion each share fascia and connective sheathes with the long wrist extensors and flexors. Supination of the lead arm (straight) will pull on the flexors on the palmar (untanned side) of the forearm and allow for a relaxed extensor mechanism giving you an easier time to bow the lead wrist with a CP release. "
[/quote]


I accept totally that when PF happens, there is also same kind of move in forearm muscles at least in EMG, because it only measures the activity, not the direction really.
[/quote]

Dap - some of those words are mine, but was posted to clarify what supination is and what happens easier mechanically as a result. You seem to be taking it out of context IMO. EMG indeed just registers muscle activation but in a pivot driven swing the supinators are isometric.

Hogan doesn't supinate. I only supinate when I quit and flip (fore right !!! ... Im lefty remember). Players who supinate will likely have a fast rate of closure generally. Some (?many) guys on tour have this release ... and the talent to make it work.

Go easy on Tee I think if you guys sat down you'd realize that you are visualizing different players swings entirely and simply have different nomenclature.

golow(TM)
[/quote]
Appreciate you posting again.I respect what you have to say.

In regards to Hogan,do you believe that a weak left hand grip with clubs bent 5 degrees open and a pronating lead forearm(as Tee suggests) will make it mechanically easier to arch the lead wrist?

[golow]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323317991' post='3908987']

Appreciate you posting again.I respect what you have to say.

In regards to Hogan,do you believe that a weak left hand grip with clubs bent 5 degrees open and a pronating lead forearm(as Tee suggests) will make it mechanically easier to arch the lead wrist?
[/quote]

Thanks for the vote. I am a swing amateur but I just know anatomy and physics so discussions like this keep my interest. I've read every post in the other epic thread.

To answer your question ... not really. First, I just don't buy into any active pronation or active resisting the supination move or resisting the triangle closing effort. I tried this the next day after it was discussed in that thread. Hard to do and resulted in an open face chop. I'm no Hogan and I stuck with it for 20 range balls so science be damned.

5º open club means nothing in terms of impact wrist positions of course.

Weak grip may have helped if he gripped lightly ... Hogan did have heavy total weights and a non-stop pivot. This can only serve to have a hands ahead no roll delivery.

I think Hogan had two brains - the analytical practice brain and the pivot driven, strong handed, loose jointed playing brain.

golow(tm)

[dap]

Golow,we should be clear that Hogan is being discussed here regarding supination and not say the average tour pro who uses a much stronger grip.Hogan bent his clubs 5 degrees open which effectively makes his already weak left hand even weaker.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323319623' post='3909093']
Golow,we should be clear that Hogan is being discussed here regarding supination and not say the average tour pro who uses a much stronger grip.Hogan bent his clubs 5 degrees open which effectively makes his already weak left hand even weaker.
[/quote]

How weak you would say Hogans grip was and of which part and why?

[eightiron]

Hogan wrote about his grip changes in the life magazine secret article ... Lots of pics at his supposed address position show it stronger than he wrote , but Imop he had already started his trigger to swing when the camera snapped him .... Venturi spoke about this secret move in a video

[golow]

Looking at 5 Lessons and watching later footage I don't thing his grip is all that weak ... neutral ? Weaker than the line of guys at the range today trying to band-aid their fades (read wicked slices) ? Sure.

I still don't don't feel qualified to start defining golf parameters - weak, strong, neutral, plane shift, accumulators. I can keep up, but can't and won't join in. I know my place and only jump in when I think I can hang. And I really do mean that.

golow(TM)

[dap]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323319340' post='3909079']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323317991' post='3908987']

Appreciate you posting again.I respect what you have to say.

In regards to Hogan,do you believe that a weak left hand grip with clubs bent 5 degrees open and a pronating lead forearm(as Tee suggests) will make it mechanically easier to arch the lead wrist?
[/quote]

Thanks for the vote. I am a swing amateur but I just know anatomy and physics so discussions like this keep my interest. I've read every post in the other epic thread.

To answer your question ... not really. First, I just don't buy into any active pronation or active resisting the supination move or resisting the triangle closing effort. I tried this the next day after it was discussed in that thread. Hard to do and resulted in an open face chop. I'm no Hogan and I stuck with it for 20 range balls so science be damned.

5º open club means nothing in terms of impact wrist positions of course.

Weak grip may have helped if he gripped lightly ... Hogan did have heavy total weights and a non-stop pivot. This can only serve to have a hands ahead no roll delivery.

I think Hogan had two brains - the analytical practice brain and the pivot driven, strong handed, loose jointed playing brain.

golow(tm)
[/quote]
Golow,I am certainly no Hogan either.I play more consistently with a stronger grip and quiet hands and wrists through impact.

But I don't make the mistake of many to assume that rolling open and closed would not work for Hogan just because I can't do it.Hogan not only had tour talent,he had the passion to hone his skills through practice that is unprecented.Copying Hogan's swing has not worked out too well for many.Those who believe they know his secret don't swing like him at all and we have seen evidence of that.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323322036' post='3909213']

Golow,I am certainly no Hogan either.I play more consistently with a stronger grip and quiet hands and wrists through impact.

But I don't make the mistake of many to assume that rolling open and closed would not work for Hogan just because I can't do it.Hogan not only had tour talent,he had the passion to hone his skills through practice that is unprecented.Copying Hogan's swing has not worked out too well for many.Those who believe they know his secret don't swing like him at all and we have seen evidence of that.
[/quote]

Is there any measurements done how much your shoulders are open at impact of what is your left arm angle by orientation ?

[tembolo1284]

Tee question about that. If I have a stronger grip....I don't need to have such an open body as Hogan's right?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323347910' post='3909815']
Tee question about that. If I have a stronger grip....I don't need to have such an open body as Hogan's right?
[/quote]

Actually, the shoulders being open would result more to an open clubface, unless you stall somewhere mid-BS and then re-drive the pivot pre-impact until impact.

[Guia]

The cause of supination is supinates.

Forgive my frivolity and welcome to the blog.

[Pinsplitter59]

hee heee SamParker.
look what you've done, i bet you're shaking your head in disbelief.
and i thought Tee Ace was on holiday.
been been having a great time in 2 Tee Ace free threads, and now look, he's back.

Sam, cupping your wrist through impact on flop shots, chips, putts etc is not only acceptable is a really good idea.
hiding and showing the back of your left hand is great too.
you can add hitting the ball with your right forefinger.
being a handsy player is great, Hogan was a very very hands conscious player.
just look at his waggle - rehearsing the hands motion for the swing.
just make sure the hands work within the overall motion.

don't let them confuse you in here,
those who think they know just pontificate but can't do.
those who know they don't know but wish they did say stupid meaningless things like "the secret's in the dirt".
you are only 16 that's great, don't let the modern internet thing ruin your natural talent.
don't fall for the latest discovery or meaningless buzzwords like "compression"

look at good golf swings and learn from them.
be very very sceptical of any expert, forum, instructor etc.
why? because they don't know and they have no idea how to teach you.

so many golfers are put through years of pain by instructors who are simply no good.
if you try something new and it doesn't work or help within 15 shots then throw it away.
if you find something that works then you lose it, look at other reasons why it might have worked when it did.
often when you consciously do one thing another thing also happens that you don't notice,
the one you don't notice might be the real cause of it working.

look, listen learn - but trust your own swing to tell you the truth.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1326255011' post='4062659']
hee heee SamParker.
look what you've done, i bet you're shaking your head in disbelief.
and i thought Tee Ace was on holiday.
been been having a great time in 2 Tee Ace free threads, and now look, he's back.

Sam, cupping your wrist through impact on flop shots, chips, putts etc is not only acceptable is a really good idea.
hiding and showing the back of your left hand is great too.
you can add hitting the ball with your right forefinger.
being a handsy player is great, Hogan was a very very hands conscious player.
just look at his waggle - rehearsing the hands motion for the swing.
just make sure the hands work within the overall motion.

don't let them confuse you in here,
those who think they know just pontificate but can't do.
those who know they don't know but wish they did say stupid meaningless things like "the secret's in the dirt".
you are only 16 that's great, don't let the modern internet thing ruin your natural talent.
don't fall for the latest discovery or meaningless buzzwords like "compression"

look at good golf swings and learn from them.
be very very sceptical of any expert, forum, instructor etc.
why? because they don't know and they have no idea how to teach you.

so many golfers are put through years of pain by instructors who are simply no good.
if you try something new and it doesn't work or help within 15 shots then throw it away.
if you find something that works then you lose it, look at other reasons why it might have worked when it did.
often when you consciously do one thing another thing also happens that you don't notice,
the one you don't notice might be the real cause of it working.

look, listen learn - but trust your own swing to tell you the truth.
[/quote]

So who should we listen to now? Teeace, we need your expertise here...lol So if your swing is really bad you shouldn't listen to that man? C'mon, be fair to Teeace...lol He's just not fit...lol

IMO shoulders being open indicates your pivot is driving hard, unless as I said you stall midway and redrive it for impact. You think continuous non-stalling pivot doesn't effect an opening on the clubface? I mean, compared to a stalling pivot, the continuous driving pivot opens the face or retards face closure. It's the left arm folding and supinating (whether intent or no intent) that closes the face.

[tembolo1284]

We need TeeAce back!