Bettinardi vs. Cameron?

[itype2slo]

Uhh, how many of Bettinardi's designs are just Anser copies also? Shoot, everybody copies the Anser design, not just Scotty. Why is he the only one to catch grief?

 

 

That may be true, but if you go to Studio B they have hundreds and hundreds of different variations of heads. The word from an insider is that Bettinardi is not happy with how Mizuno is marketing their product and will not be continuing their partnership. They, unlike Cameron, are not concerned on mass producing and are concentrating on more of the high end custom market. I look for good things to come from Bettinardi in the near future.

[iteachgolf]

I own or have owned many many putters. At least 10 bettis ranging from early japanese models from the 90s to the current BB2 I own. I've also owned over 30 camerons, and still own 2, of all varieties retail and tour. I currently putt with a putter made by David Mills. They all make good putters but I have to say the. Mills and Bettinardi putters have come out closer to spec. One of my tour camerons was 7 grams lighter than the weight stamped on the putter. I enjoy them all and just love milled putters. Bettinardi is happy where he's at. I will also add that the KOMBI isn't original. Its a milled Ping CrazE

[touch]

Great responses for this thread I started.

I give the highest mark to the post that RJB is not that happy with the

Mizuno marketing of his putters, and will not renew that deal. He also adds "wait to

see what comes from him in the upcoming years."

 

Second place to the post that states " everyone copy's Pings anser, and why does King Scotty

get the most guff for it?"

 

Keep the opinions coming.

I think he makes great putters, and should selling more. Years ago he was the talk of the town.

Not now.

[xxio]

Bettinardi back to high end custom doesn't sound good for my pocket.

 

I'd rather he continue with an OEM to make his putter affordable to us.

 

My BC7 will probably be my last new Bett for a while then. :(

[Hansch99]

I agree that I hope he stays with Mizuno. His OTR offerings are great, and in my price sweet spot.

 

That said, if he really wants to leave Mizuno but is still interested in milling putters for an OEM, I think he'd be a great fit milling putters for Nike. He's a little more aggressive and modern with his styling, and I think that fits Nike's image. Plus, you know Nike could flex its marketing muscle and give Bettinardi a boost.

 

On a side note, I don't buy the argument that he produces fewer putters because he's not satisfied with mass produced product. That's a convenient argument for someone who's not in first place. I think Bettinardi would absolutely love to have the sales volume of Cameron; and if his main business really is making high-tech parts for government contracts, I bet he could get putter quality control to an acceptable level even with those production numbers.

[dcl92]

 

"That said, if he really wants to leave Mizuno but is still interested in milling putters for an OEM, I think he'd be a great fit milling putters for Nike. He's a little more aggressive and modern with his styling, and I think that fits Nike's image. Plus, you know Nike could flex its marketing muscle and give Bettinardi a boost."

 

This would be very interesting. My understanding of Tiger's Nike contract has been that he can play other clubs if he feels they are better. Would it be conceivable that if Nike did bring in Bettinardi that Nike may make a play to get Tiger to move from his Cameron? This could be a big blow to Titleist/Cameron and may get Nike much more substantially visibility in the putter market. Though from the other threads on hear, it sounds like Bob B is much more interested in the quality than the quality.

[Gxgolfer]

I think Cameron production runs are in the 100ks of thousands per year.

 

I think Bob, Keith and the guys have a great relationship with Miz. If something were to occur, its probably going to be related to the economy more than anything else. As for Nike, unless they change their requirements on Maker's names on putters, I don't see that happening.

 

You need a Big OEM with alot of dollars to promote your brand. That's the game. Also, in terms of producing putters, I think(total guess), Cameron is 3rd behind Callaway and Ping.

[SwingMan]

Tiger Woods is probably the biggest reason why no putter maker has been able to catch Cameron.

 

With Tiger's help, Cameron has convinced players that his putters are the world's best equipment for the world's best players.

 

As silly as it sounds, I know that when I stand over a putt holding a Cameron, I think of Tiger doing the same with a similar piece of equipment.

 

 

I guess you're as talented as Tiger who is said from various sources to aim his Cameron putter to the right and makes other compensations ( a rotational release) to get it to the hole.

 

Now how confident are you?

[Hansch99]

Tiger Woods is probably the biggest reason why no putter maker has been able to catch Cameron.

 

With Tiger's help, Cameron has convinced players that his putters are the world's best equipment for the world's best players.

 

As silly as it sounds, I know that when I stand over a putt holding a Cameron, I think of Tiger doing the same with a similar piece of equipment.

 

 

I guess you're as talented as Tiger who is said from various sources to aim his Cameron putter to the right and makes other compensations ( a rotational release) to get it to the hole.

 

Now how confident are you?

 

 

 

I think you missed the point of my post.

[SwingMan]

Tiger Woods is probably the biggest reason why no putter maker has been able to catch Cameron.

 

With Tiger's help, Cameron has convinced players that his putters are the world's best equipment for the world's best players.

 

As silly as it sounds, I know that when I stand over a putt holding a Cameron, I think of Tiger doing the same with a similar piece of equipment.

 

 

I guess you're as talented as Tiger who is said from various sources to aim his Cameron putter to the right and makes other compensations ( a rotational release) to get it to the hole.

 

Now how confident are you?

 

 

 

I think you missed the point of my post.

 

That's OK. My guess is your point is "confidence."

 

My point is whether that confidence is well-founded?

 

Cameron makes a nice putter. But Tiger reads greens better than anyone. That's why he makes putts. It's not that the putter fits him.

 

Off topic -- if you want to see if your putter fits - get one of those SeeMore triangulators or a small mirror and a laser and see if your putter fits or what compensation you're making to get the ball to the hole. Good luck.

 

As to Bett v. Cameron, marketing and Tiger put Cameron near the forefront every year. It's a nice putter, too, no doubt.

[Hansch99]

Confidence is part of it, but the Tiger connection is what I'm really after. Tiger's my golfing hero, and I grew up watching him. When I have a crucial putt, I like to envision myself as Tiger stalking one of his putts. Putting with a Cameron helps me do that even more. That's probably why I own a stainless Newport 2 and a TEI3 Newport . . . they're similar to Tiger's most famous putters.

 

Are my priorities misaligned? Maybe. Are some better performers than the two Camerons I have? Probably (although I'd say marginally if so). Are some putters better values? Absolutely. But I'd still three-putt with those sticks, too. At least when I play my Cameron, I have that connection to Tiger that's special to me, and I'm willing to pay a little more for that.

[SwingMan]

Confidence is part of it, but the Tiger connection is what I'm really after. Tiger's my golfing hero, and I grew up watching him. When I have a crucial putt, I like to envision myself as Tiger stalking one of his putts. Putting with a Cameron helps me do that even more. That's probably why I own a stainless Newport 2 and a TEI3 Newport . . . they're similar to Tiger's most famous putters.

 

Are my priorities misaligned? Maybe. Are some better performers than the two Camerons I have? Probably (although I'd say marginally if so). Are some putters better values? Absolutely. But I'd still three-putt with those sticks, too. At least when I play my Cameron, I have that connection to Tiger that's special to me, and I'm willing to pay a little more for that.

 

 

It's indeed a crazy game -- whatever works for you. Do you wear a red shirt and a black cap, too? I'm wondering how far this hero worship extends. (yes, I'm joking)

[TM golf guy]

Kombi, Detour, Futura

 

Wow, interesting designs indeed. Two of those are some of the biggest flops ever made. The Kombi looks like it might do alright, but it is just a Craz-E copy and it is too early to tell still.

 

Its all about the money. Cameron pays more guys. Plain and simple.

[xxio]

On a side note, I don't buy the argument that he produces fewer putters because he's not satisfied with mass produced product. That's a convenient argument for someone who's not in first place. I think Bettinardi would absolutely love to have the sales volume of Cameron; and if his main business really is making high-tech parts for government contracts, I bet he could get putter quality control to an acceptable level even with those production numbers.

 

 

I don't think Bettinardi's putter making facilities can compete with the guys making the putters for Cameron in terms of numbers.

 

The pics of Studio B in the production videos seems like the part of the facility for making putters is not that big. I hear Camerons reach into the hundred thousand in a year. Anyone care to confirm or deny that?

[Gxgolfer]

Bob has the capacity and would buy more machines if he had to. Heck, he's using them to make belt buckles and divot tools.

[Jkunzy1690]

he is a family guy, I played against his son in a sectional high school tournement. Sam bettinardi is now a freshman in college, and im sure bob goes to a lot of tournements as he did when sam was in high school. yes, he is a great putter designer, one of the best ever, but I dont think he is just taking timne off because he has already made money. Just my .02 cents

[xxio]

Bob has the capacity and would buy more machines if he had to. Heck, he's using them to make belt buckles and divot tools.

 

 

Key word is if he had to.

 

Again from what I read from interviews and the Bettinardi site it doesn't seem that he is interested in mass producing and mass marketing putters and having quality control suffer. Yes, the more you make the harder it is to control quality on any product.

 

Belt buckles are a lot easier to make than putters divots tools I wouldn't know but would guess so as well. Again if he had to.

 

If Bettinardi was interested in a race he could always sub-contract as well. IMHO I don't think he think he is in a race.

 

He only produces 2-4 high quality retail offerings in a year. He actually puts 343 grams on a head, not 345 or 340, meaning the quality control has to be good.

 

If he was in a race, he could have produced/released the C lines all together (1-6) then BC line (1-7) all together. He produces a certain number for the Japan market as well every year that he doesn't broadcast. His website says 50 employees. That is not a lot at all. K-net probably has that many working on one head shape.

 

Lastly if you look at his site it is just about the company, putters, golf accessories and a fitting experience in Studio B. No numerous video presentations, no emphasis on counts, So far I don't see a reference on the front page to the BG win. Just an additional listing on the Tour Victories page.

 

If this was a race it wouldn't make sense to offer a studio fitting for Joe Hack for $100. It would take away from the time of producing putters. He just probably thinks there is more to putter making than gaining 10% of market share.

[nickpoz]

Bob has the capacity and would buy more machines if he had to. Heck, he's using them to make belt buckles and divot tools.

 

 

Key word is if he had to.

 

Again from what I read from interviews and the Bettinardi site it doesn't seem that he is interested in mass producing and mass marketing putters and having quality control suffer. Yes, the more you make the harder it is to control quality on any product.

 

Belt buckles are a lot easier to make than putters divots tools I wouldn't know but would guess so as well. Again if he had to.

 

If Bettinardi was interested in a race he could always sub-contract as well. IMHO I don't think he think he is in a race.

 

He only produces 2-4 high quality retail offerings in a year. He actually puts 343 grams on a head, not 345 or 340, meaning the quality control has to be good.

 

If he was in a race, he could have produced/released the C lines all together (1-6) then BC line (1-7) all together. He produces a certain number for the Japan market as well every year that he doesn't broadcast. His website says 50 employees. That is not a lot at all. K-net probably has that many working on one head shape.

 

Lastly if you look at his site it is just about the company, putters, golf accessories and a fitting experience in Studio B. No numerous video presentations, no emphasis on counts, So far I don't see a reference on the front page to the BG win. Just an additional listing on the Tour Victories page.

 

If this was a race it wouldn't make sense to offer a studio fitting for Joe Hack for $100. It would take away from the time of producing putters. He just probably thinks there is more to putter making than gaining 10% of market share.

The first 2 slides on the site are about Brian Gays win and how the winner of the Masters wore their belt buckle. On the Mizuno site there is an entire page of videos, they are pretty neat btw

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/putters/

[xxio]

Sorry that must've been put up lately. My mistake. Last time I checked was 2-3 days after the BG win.

 

I still stand by my opinion that if Bettinardi wanted a race he would've subcontracted out a long time ago. He present facilities will not be able to compete unless he does that as well.

[jockr]

Its all about buying the tour count...whether you want to believe it or not, that is the difference maker.

 

 

Race it on Sunday and sell it on Monday. The thing that has always amazed me is that Scotty (and almost all other putter makers) have "borrowed" the designs from PING. Scotty sells more ANSER putters than PING. I guess there was no patent. Scotty makes a whole lot of money on someone elses design and by fueling the feeding frenzy with collectable products (head covers etc).

[iteachgolf]

The patent on the Anser died in the 80s. Everyone has that design. The comments on marketing, quality control, technology, etc is fine but enough of the copying thing. Yes he does it and so does everyone else in all clubs not just putters. The best ideas are usually borrowed ones. How many companies now have adjustable or changeable shafts.

[Gxgolfer]

Its all about buying the tour count...whether you want to believe it or not, that is the difference maker.

 

 

Race it on Sunday and sell it on Monday. The thing that has always amazed me is that Scotty (and almost all other putter makers) have "borrowed" the designs from PING. Scotty sells more ANSER putters than PING. I guess there was no patent. Scotty makes a whole lot of money on someone elses design and by fueling the feeding frenzy with collectable products (head covers etc).

 

I am not sure of the numbers but, I do believe Ping sells more putters in total. Scotty I believe sells more in total dollar rev. Scotty is like 3 or 4 on the sales volume side. If RJB was the subcontractor for Scotty before, then why couldn't he make as many putters today under his own name? I know its been a few years but, I believe the numbers produce seem to be around the same.

[hypergolf]

We all the know the backing of Scotty and the TOUR usage, but why has Bettinardi not kept even

a wee bit of market share. Has he made all the money he wants, and will just rest on the Mizuno putter's he puts out every 3 years? Did he cash in years ago when he made the Hogan putters?

He is such a talented putter craftsman, and I wonder how with his reputation that he does not

hit home runs a lot more often. I know he will never sell the #'s of Cameron's,or market share, and that is not my point.

He was the strong # 2 craftsman, talked about for years, sold and made great putters, and now what have you done lately?

Thoughts?

 

Anything new and great comming our way from BOB??

 

I was recently talking to one of the tour players regarding this topic. He said basically choosing Mizuno as his partner was a bad move. If Bettinardi joined Titlieist instead it would have been a complete different story. He said that Bettinardi should have stayed independent or should have joined with a brand that has stronger presence. It all comes to dollars and cents.

[nickpoz]

We all the know the backing of Scotty and the TOUR usage, but why has Bettinardi not kept even

a wee bit of market share. Has he made all the money he wants, and will just rest on the Mizuno putter's he puts out every 3 years? Did he cash in years ago when he made the Hogan putters?

He is such a talented putter craftsman, and I wonder how with his reputation that he does not

hit home runs a lot more often. I know he will never sell the #'s of Cameron's,or market share, and that is not my point.

He was the strong # 2 craftsman, talked about for years, sold and made great putters, and now what have you done lately?

Thoughts?

 

Anything new and great comming our way from BOB??

 

I was recently talking to one of the tour players regarding this topic. He said basically choosing Mizuno as his partner was a bad move. If Bettinardi joined Titlieist instead it would have been a complete different story. He said that Bettinardi should have stayed independent or should have joined with a brand that has stronger presence. It all comes to dollars and cents.

At the time Cameron joined Titleist, Bettinardi was machining putters for others people based on their designs. When did Bettinardi start making his own putters with his name on it? I guess it was sometime around 1998 but dont know for sure.

Just wondering

[xxio]

I am not sure of the numbers but, I do believe Ping sells more putters in total. Scotty I believe sells more in total dollar rev. Scotty is like 3 or 4 on the sales volume side. If RJB was the subcontractor for Scotty before, then why couldn't he make as many putters today under his own name? I know its been a few years but, I believe the numbers produce seem to be around the same.

 

 

It would be nice to find out how many total SC's were produced annualy during the Bettinardi era and how many per year since. Please include the non-retail SCs (009s, etc).

 

Anyone?

[touch]

Just for fun, and that I started this thread....... I went to the 4 month old Golfsmith Superstore here in

So California and looked at the enormous putting section.

At least 400-700 putter's in stock. Guess what? Not ONE Bettinardi, Mizuno or not.

Well there was in the used putter section a beat up Bettinardi for Hogan Big Ben for $49.99!

Tht was Bettinardi's representation!

 

 

That was amazing to me. 30-50 pieces each of Cameron's, Rife's, Yes, Ping, Odessey's,

Cleveland's, Taylor Made's and on and on.

 

Went to 3 other golf stores in the area and found one store that had 2 of the Mizuno Carbon's on sale for $179.00 with 1/4 inch of dust on them. This is an area with over 100 golf courses. Amazed? I was.

[Pure745]

Roger Dunn usually carries a bunch maybe 10-15 in Santa Ana.. but the customer service at that store is a complete joke.

[kyo-nax]

Once thing I regret not doing was going to the facility when I lived in Chicago.

Custom made putter for $500 seems helluva deal now that I have money.

 

Scotty don't let you do that. :D

[jockr]

Here is my theory:

Cameron putters have become for the most part mass produced. The new heads are all the same and he just has to change the weight for different length putters.

 

Bettinardi produces less and IMO are more works of ART. 10-20 years down the road I think the Bettinardis will become more collector pieces due to their relative rarity.

 

Maybe it will happen, maybe not. I don't personally buy putters to collect, I just haven't found the right one to use (I have about 50 of them).

[Calif_Mulligan]

Here is my theory:

Cameron putters have become for the most part mass produced. The new heads are all the same and he just has to change the weight for different length putters.

 

Bettinardi produces less and IMO are more works of ART. 10-20 years down the road I think the Bettinardis will become more collector pieces due to their relative rarity.

 

Maybe it will happen, maybe not. I don't personally buy putters to collect, I just haven't found the right one to use (I have about 50 of them).

 

Off subject.... Where does Cameron mass produce his putters? I know he has the Studio....but I would believe that the majority are created elsewhere. Does anyone have info on where the off the shelf Cameron's are created?