Vega or Miura blades? Some technical and subjective questions.

[GolfRWX]

Input from metallurgists/folk who have tried both :)

Hello,

Just wondering what are some of the differences? Obviously there are a number of variables but wondered how they differ in feel and which you preferred and why.

In addition if you have tried the blades in some of the other 'top-end' Japanese lines please do share your experiences.

Also I have some other questions, which on re-reading sound a bit devils-advocat-y, but it's genuine curiosity - I'm fascinated by this aspect of clubs - and if I need to be taken in hand and straightened out as to my assumptions that's well and good:

I found a post on another forum, tourspec, where someone said that the heads for Vega, Miura and several others were all ground from the same rough heads:

'Here is something that may effect how people think, Miura, Vega, Kyoei product, Hiro Matsumoto, Zodia, Scratch and many many others are all using the same RAW heads and simply grinding them differently.'

The thread was here http://www.tourspecgolf.com/forum/t27471.h...ded#entry150875 and to be honest really surprised me - is this what happens? (If so that renders the next paragraph obsolete)

In addition something is bothering me about the 'science bit', this mystical forging process which apparently elevates the Samurai-lineaged manufacturers above others to the end user. I don't really understand the science behind the Vega irons from their website, and what makes them different. In the case of Miura, the 'magic' seems to simply be striking the forged head three times instead of two. If it is simply a case of striking the metal a third time to apparently improve the consistency of the metal, why do more Samurai-lineage manufacturers not choose to do it? As this seems to be one of Miura's unique selling points.

(There is much more of this metallurgic mystery in the putter world where steel is given mysterious three-digit numbers and four- and five- digit prices.)

I'm also a little confused about the differences between 'new' Vega and 'old' Vega that some people talk about, and why old is better than new or vice versa. Has something happened to the company to compromise its quality, or perhaps to improve it. I can't tell, it seems to depend on what you read.


Thanks so much for reading and for any responses you might have.

[bovi]

very interesting topic and especially that thread at TSG. sounds like the poster tourspecgolfer would have the answer to your questions. still would like to hear from members here

 

Shocked to read Yururi being blank heads. I've known about Scratch irons though, any idea who scratch gets their heads from?

 

Wonder if it makes a difference to use virgin carbon steel instead of recycled material - i.e left over materials from the forging process remelted and combined to make another head.

[rymail00]

very interesting topic and especially that thread at TSG. sounds like the poster tourspecgolfer would have the answer to your questions. still would like to hear from members here

 

Shocked to read Yururi being blank heads. I've known about Scratch irons though, any idea who scratch gets their heads from?

 

Wonder if it makes a difference to use virgin carbon steel instead of recycled material - i.e left over materials from the forging process remelted and combined to make another head.

 

 

+1 Very interested in this topic

[iteachgolf]

Kyoei and Vega are the same but from my knowledge Miura's are forged in house and completely different than Kyoei/Vega. Scratch heads are made for them by a small foundry that has very strict quality control standards. I wouldn't say "simply" grinding them differently. Grinding the way Jeff @ Scratch does is truly an art and to go from a raw head to any of the many grinds Scratch has is very difficult and time consuming. As far as the others I don't know for certain but can tell you Scratch, Miura, and Vega heads are all different.

[varsityhacker]

I have not hit Vega but, I have owned Epon and Miura. The Epon's are a little harder feeling than Miura they have a click to them when you hit them. Miura is softer feeling but, I feel the quality is a little better with the Epons and they seem to have the least face wear of any iron I have ever hit and I believe that has to do with the double nickel plating used. Both brands make excellent high quality gear so you can't really go wrong with either brand. I will say this that Endo which is the parent company of Epon has the most advanced foundry in golf and is able to forge clubs that Kyoei simply can't. There is a reason that the irons coming out of Kyoei all look the same besides the need for a catalog heads. To forge a club with a notch cavity for example takes a lot more effort than banging out a flat CB iron.

 

As far as materials go a lot of people believe that 1020 is softer feeling or better feeling than say 1025 but, that is not always true depending on the steel (purity) and the grain structure (how the club was forged) a club that is 1025 can still feel better than one that is 1020. For example Titleist 681’s (Tiger’s irons pre Nike) were forged with 1030 steel yet they feel much softer than other Titleist blades forged with 1025 steel.

 

Hopefully FairWayFred (Ari from Scratch) can chime in on this topic and what Chris from Tourspec wrote.

[Brando5105]

I tried Vega Blades and I somewhat stuggled to hit them (had a hard time hitting the sweetspot). I really wanted to hit them well but maybe my swing at the time was not up to it. They felt soft, almost like hitting a set of Mizuno's, but more demanding.

 

THen I went to my current miura blade/201 combo and had no problem hitting them. They feel buttery soft as can be and where easier for me to hit. 2 years and close to 400 rounds later I still wonder about that set of Vega blades, even though I am extremely happy with the quality and near perfection of the Miuras

[iteachgolf]

Just to add Scratch owns and designed all the dies that their "blanks" are made from.

[potterman513]

First, I'm sure this is common knowledge at this point, but just in case it's not, Kyoei is the foundry that produces Vega irons as their own brand.

 

While I won't debate that there are certainly "open stock" models that are produced widely in Japan, the person who posted that comment on TourSpec is very misinformed if he believes that those companies don't have any original designs or that they simply all pick out of a pile of raw heads and "grind them differently". Kyoei and Miura both forge everything in-house…and if you compare MiuraGolf.com and VegaGolfUSA.com, there aren't nearly as many similarities as people tend to think.

 

Samurai-lineage is nothing more than a marketing tactic. Notice that Vega-Golf.com (the UK distribution) has this story while and VegaGolfUSA.com (the US distribution) does not. The man on the UK website is the former Chairman of Kyoei Golf who does maintain some ties into Kyoei by being the founder's son-in-law and distributor of Vega in Japan.

 

As for the 'new' and 'old' Vega, I'm not sure I follow… Vega has been produced in the same fashion by the same foundry since it's inception about ten years ago. Designs may have changed, but other than that I'm not sure where people claim to difference is. The name Vega is owned by Kyoei directly as it was when it was created, this coming directly from Ms. Sakamoto, the wife of the founder who still assists in day-to-day operations despite being well into her 70s. Her son, Keisuke Sakamoto, was named President last year and has started looking more heavily into the incorporation of CNC milling along with their forging techniques, but the traditional forged irons are still produced and available as always.

 

There is one primary difference between Miura and Kyoei (Vega) forgings…Miura's irons are two-piece and Kyoei's are one piece. There are many schools of thought on Miura's two-piece process, some say it does what it claims and allows for very consistent hosels…others say that having a weld between the hosel and head dampens feel. That's up to you to decide. However, the rest of the forging process is almost identical between the two foundries.

 

A couple of interesting factoids that not many people know:

 

The similarities between the two foundries should come as no surprise. Kyoei was founded in 1958 (named in 1961) by Tamaki Samakoto…and guess who is married to Sakamoto's younger sister? Yep, you guessed it… Miura got his start in the golf business by learning to grind at Kyoei for his brother in law and eventually ended up renting out a back room to apply custom grinds and start his own business, which he eventually turned into the incredibly successful Miura Golf that you know today. Also, the foundries are right down the road from each other…as in almost next door.

 

Alright that went on for far too long, sorry for the rambling—a lot of things have been put out there in the past that seemed a little inaccurate…so there you go! And this is coming secondhand from Ms. Sakamoto and her daughter, Mizue, who also works at Kyoei.

 

Now, anyone else thinking they want to buy a ticket to that next family get-together???

[mizunogrrl]

Great topic, this was a fun read. :)

[varsityhacker]

Yes it was thank you.

[Duffy19]

Perhaps you can add the linkage of Hiro Matsumoto, the great Japanese putter maker in the mix or family gathering.

[bovi]

potterman, thanks for the info. really interesting stuff

 

btw i think what the poster at TSG meant was some miura stuff are blanks, some not - this was mentioned in his subsequent posts in that thread.

 

We have to admit 1 particular scratch iron design is seen in many other "no-brand" iron heads. even on ebay. the similarity is too close to ignore.. since its not a classic blade design. Really nice design though

 

By the way are Epon's cavities forged or milled out? didn't know you can forge out a cavity.

 

Another issue, I hear there is a difference between Miura stuff offered in Japan (Giken?) and Miura USA besides just design. Anyone know?

[xxio]

Another issue, I hear there is a difference between Miura stuff offered in Japan (Giken?) and Miura USA besides just design. Anyone know?

 

 

Grind.

 

Most Japanese irons (not just Miura) will have sharper leading edges because the turf conditions in Japan are on the hard side. They have to keep them that way to survive extreme conditions.

 

The Miura USA models are deigned for lush (think California and Florida type) conditions.

[rymail00]

potterman, thanks for the info. really interesting stuff

 

btw i think what the poster at TSG meant was some miura stuff are blanks, some not - this was mentioned in his subsequent posts in that thread.

 

We have to admit 1 particular scratch iron design is seen in many other "no-brand" iron heads. even on ebay. the similarity is too close to ignore.. since its not a classic blade design. Really nice design though

By the way are Epon's cavities forged or milled out? didn't know you can forge out a cavity.

 

Another issue, I hear there is a difference between Miura stuff offered in Japan (Giken?) and Miura USA besides just design. Anyone know?

 

Are talking about the SB-1, or AR-1, or EZ-1? I just dont understand what you mean (what head style thats all).

 

Thanks

[iteachgolf]

AR1 he is talking about. As stated above, Scratch Golf owns and designs its own dies used to build their clubs. There are sets the look similar in the cavity but from setup have a much thicker topline and more offset.

[rymail00]

AR1 he is talking about. As stated above, Scratch Golf owns and designs its own dies used to build their clubs. There are sets the look similar in the cavity but from setup have a much thicker topline and more offset.

 

 

Ok thats what I thought he was talking about. And yes I have seen "look-a-likes". They have the same type of cavity. Now I know what you mean.

 

Thanks

Ryan

[GolfRWX]

Yes, many thanks for the replies so far, it has cleared up a lot for me.

 

I was also reading about the 'best' forgings being put aside for the Japanese market at Miura, and how a professional clubmaker who had taken apart a set of Mizunos intended for Japan and those intended for overseas found some differences which showed the set intended for Japan in a favorable light. I need to dig up the thread, but it was here on golfwrx. And just to be clear - this is only two sets of Mizunos, and no domestic/export Miuras had been compared.

But apart from grind, has anyone evidence of truth in these differences?

 

It might be one of those things that is impossible to either prove or disprove, so perhaps speculation is not useful. In addition such differences are very unlikely to be noticed by a vast majority of players. But I can't help but wonder about it too.

[cigarnut81]

Miura only strikes their heads three times? I know a company that has a five step forging process. It is forged five different times to help with the consistency of the heads. The whole samurai mystique is all marketing. True samurai swords are folded hundreds of times not just three.

[finalist]

An aspect of forging that never gets talked about is not only how many times a head is struck, BUT under what pound per square inch of pressure. The more the better. For example striking a head 3 times under say 2 pounds per square inch is nothing compared to a head that is struck 2 times under 1,000 pounds per square inch.

 

Somewhere deep in the search engine of Wrx there is an awesome post where someone listed what most OEMs do to their forgings.. How many strikes with how much pressure. It's surprising how "cheaply" made and quality some of the major OEMs go about producing heads. For example the old Titleist 704 could hardly even be considered forged, yet they are stamped forged on the cavity. I think (it's been a long time) that Srixon was up there in quality of strikes and pps.

 

So with forging we have:

 

1. Number of strikes

2. Amount of pressure per strike (this is huge and never listed)

3. Head design and grind

4. head weight tolerances

5. Grade of steel used.. 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030, etc.

[joey3108]

Interesting! ;)

 

I don't need to say to much here since the horse already say enough.

 

I just want to say that somebody need to be very careful before saying something that makes him look like a fool. But we can't blame them for their own motives ( From a quoted bold first post ).

 

My 2 cents!

 

Joe

[bovi]

An aspect of forging that never gets talked about is not only how many times a head is struck, BUT under what pound per square inch of pressure. The more the better. For example striking a head 3 times under say 2 pounds per square inch is nothing compared to a head that is struck 2 times under 1,000 pounds per square inch.

 

Somewhere deep in the search engine of Wrx there is an awesome post where someone listed what most OEMs do to their forgings.. How many strikes with how much pressure. It's surprising how "cheaply" made and quality some of the major OEMs go about producing heads. For example the old Titleist 704 could hardly even be considered forged, yet they are stamped forged on the cavity. I think (it's been a long time) that Srixon was up there in quality of strikes and pps.

 

So with forging we have:

 

1. Number of strikes

2. Amount of pressure per strike (this is huge and never listed)

3. Head design and grind

4. head weight tolerances

5. Grade of steel used.. 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030, etc.

 

interesting info. if you locate that thread pls post the link. Apparently some recent Srixon's go through a 5 stage forging process (5 stage = 5 hits?). Have heard some good things about 301s, 404s & 506.

 

I watched an incredibly detailed documentary on how Samurai swords were made. The quality of the carbon steel used to make the blade is so dependent on the right person in charge of the process. This was perhaps the most delicate & demanding of all the stages. the folding itself wasnt as fascinating.

 

IMO, folding for samurai swords is not applicable to iron heads. Iron heads are just reheated and stamped "forged" again to increase density.. perhaps refine shape... not sure.

 

slightly off topic but how do ft.worth (pre 1993?) forged Hogan irons compare?

[Pure745]

Interesting! ;)

 

I don't need to say to much here since the horse already say enough.

 

I just want to say that somebody need to be very careful before saying something that makes him look like a fool. But we can't blame them for their own motives.

 

My 2 cents!

 

Joe

 

Please explain?

[joey3108]

1st, Look at the first post in bold quotation.

 

Every one in this business knows that even big OEM could buy out any house design mold for their line.

 

Yes, most of them put up a long list to match what ever they have on their book to suit their goals on every factors of it.

 

VEGA and MIURA are probably some of the last true Japanese forging companies who can give best of the best. Japanese are always known to give the best for their own brand. This is become their culture. Bad or good, that is the way they are.

 

As Of Scratch products, Most of you a long timer knows my relationship with Ari...I will back Ari up any day at anytime, he is a man with integrity to give his best. No doubt he is a human being just like every one of us...however, he will always back up every thing he does.

 

If we hear or read somewhere from a person who claim they are in this industry knows his stuff and yet shoot his own foot at the end of the day, he should reconsider or at least think 5 times to post something he can't back it up.

 

Every members knows that I rarely make any comment on thing like this, unless it's way out line already.

 

Sorry, It's just who I am!

 

Joe

[Pure745]

1st, Look at the first post in bold quotation.

 

Every one in this business knows that even big OEM could buy out any house design mold for their line.

 

Yes, most of them put up a long list to match what ever they have on their book to suit their goals on every factors of it.

 

VEGA and MIURA are probably some of the last true Japanese forging companies who can give best of the best. Japanese are always known to give the best for their own brand. This is become their culture. Bad or good, that is the way they are.

 

As Of Scratch products, Most of you a long timer knows my relationship with Ari...I will back Ari up any day at anytime, he is a man with integrity to give his best. No doubt he is a human being just like every one of us...however, he will always back up every thing he does.

 

If we hear or read somewhere from a person who claim they are in this industry knows his stuff and yet shoot his own foot at the end of the day, he should reconsider or at least think 5 times to post something he can't back it up.

 

Every members knows that I rarely make any comment on thing like this, unless it's way out line already.

 

Sorry, It's just who I am!

 

Joe

 

YIKES! :help: :aggressive:

[joey3108]

Well, You asked me to explain! ;)

[m3nace]

Very interesting discussion, and one I would be glad to continue reading.

 

As we all know, marketing rules the day, and golf products are no exception.

 

Were the veil to be lifted, so to speak, even for a brief peak, I wouldn't turn away.

[iteachgolf]

From what I know Scratch, Vega, and Miura make a phenomenal product and all 3 are forged in different forging houses. You can't go worng with any of them. Miura has/does make some clubs for others but best stuff is their own line. Same could be said with Vega. Scratch designs and owns all their own dies that their iron heads are forged from.

[shuttle1]

It was a great topic until Joe goes off topic and insinuates the OP is posting for other reasons than discussion.

 

Nobody's posts are more self serving than Joes. Yes it is just my opinion, which I'm entitled to. But that's the way it is.

 

Do I care you don't agree with me? No.

 

Will this post be deleted? probably.

 

Sorry, it's just who I am!

[joey3108]

Not a surprise coming out of you.

 

Members here can look at your post & my post and be the judge.

 

I can hold my own!

[bovi]

i too think the OP has/had no shadowy purpose or was insinuating anything. just curiosity. TSP have alot of dealings with all the J forging houses and are based in Japan. they sell miura, vega etc. So to read something said from 1 of their administrators is intriguing. The OP was just pointing to what TSGolfer said at their forums. Unless the OP is TSGolfer, i see no problem. The OP did not post his own opinion.

 

I dont see how this was an attack on Ari or Scratch golf or have anything to do with Ari's integrity. I've heard and i think mizuno has publicly said a 3rd party foundry does all their forgings (read it on their website once or the mizuno mini documentary). This 3rd party has been said to be Endo. As long as the product's quality is as advertised, its only left to the potential buyer to decide if he's willing to pay that price.

 

My interest in this topic is to ask are all forged irons from Japan created equally? If not, what are the differences and how do different methods/materials (if any) affect the final product. Are Yururi's the same as Vega's etc? We all know Epon is supposedly the creme de la creme of anything Endo can produce, but what (difference) and how? could it be just cosmetic? Why is mizuno the only 1 using the term grain-flow forged and no other company is using a comparable term?

 

with just 3rd hand info, this is merely a discussion. If some1 who is involved in the manufacturing process or has been to the foundries would care to share info (preferably w/o bias), it'll greatly help out what this thread is about.