Vega or Miura blades? Some technical and subjective questions.

[varsityhacker]

First when I read Joe's post I thought he was being tongue in cheek about another poster in this discussion.

 

Second the quote is from Chris the owner or TourSpec Golf, very different from just being an admin on the site. So I understand why people would call out Chris for an obvious mistake, Vega and Miura are different foundry's for example, I am not sure who forges Scratch clubs but, they are their own designs with their own molds. Now you can read the remarks two ways IMOP. 1. This statement was self serving meaning he was trying to influence buyers to buy other brands that he sells. 2. He was making a general statement and lumped a bunch of manufactures that have in the past (Miura) or still do (Vega) make clubs using the same molds. I have believe he was making a general statement.

 

Now as most people know just because Vega makes the same model head for other companies does not mean they are the same head from a material stand point. The customer will determine the quality of the metal used in the forging process, fit and finish however should be very close. Meaning that 2 heads could look the same but feel different.

 

I also used to believe that the Japanese forged the best clubs in the world and in large they do. However, I really believe any forging house is capable of making just a good product as Japan, yes even China. It is really up to the customer (OEM) to decide what the quality of the product will be and how much are they willing to spend to get it. For example I have a set of the new Nike Vr TW blades and I have to tell you they feel better or just as good as any Japanese forged irons I have played in the past and that includes Miura, Epon, Tourstage and list goes on and on. I have not hit a Vega iron so I can't comment yet but, not for long should have my Vega T.50 blades arrive tomorrow. I will post back after I get a round in with them, I will say they are going to have to blow me away to kick the Nike's out of the bag.

[Pure745]

For example I have a set of the new Nike Vr TW blades and I have to tell you they feel better or just as good as any Japanese forged irons I have played in the past and that includes Miura, Epon, Tourstage and list goes on and on. I have not hit a Vega iron so I can't comment yet but, not for long should have my Vega T.50 blades arrive tomorrow. I will post back after I get a round in with them, I will say they are going to have to blow me away to kick the Nike's out of the bag.

 

My thoughts exactly.. I love the VR's, I tried the Adams Pro Blacks and the VR's are better, also gamed a set of Scratch SB1's and also thought the VR's are better.. SB1's are soft and I think the shafts I played may have had something to do with my impression (Nippon 1150's, I play TC's) But tested VR's agains Miura's etc and chose the VR's. I recently was going to get another set of VR's but came across a set of Mizuno MP-100's and will be gaming these for a bit, VR's will go back in the bag if I don't get along w/ the 100's.

 

I agree with your above post completely Varsity.

[bovi]

For example I have a set of the new Nike Vr TW blades and I have to tell you they feel better or just as good as any Japanese forged irons I have played in the past and that includes Miura, Epon, Tourstage and list goes on and on.

 

raises an interesting point. Read it somewhere in these forums that the old hogan ft worth guy(s) are working for Nike now? goes back to my earlier question on how Hogans (esp pre '93) compare to japan forgings. where are the VR tw blades forged?

[varsityhacker]

For example I have a set of the new Nike Vr TW blades and I have to tell you they feel better or just as good as any Japanese forged irons I have played in the past and that includes Miura, Epon, Tourstage and list goes on and on. I have not hit a Vega iron so I can't comment yet but, not for long should have my Vega T.50 blades arrive tomorrow. I will post back after I get a round in with them, I will say they are going to have to blow me away to kick the Nike's out of the bag.

 

My thoughts exactly.. I love the VR's, I tried the Adams Pro Blacks and the VR's are better, also gamed a set of Scratch SB1's and also thought the VR's are better.. SB1's are soft and I think the shafts I played may have had something to do with my impression (Nippon 1150's, I play TC's) But tested VR's agains Miura's etc and chose the VR's. I recently was going to get another set of VR's but came across a set of Mizuno MP-100's and will be gaming these for a bit, VR's will go back in the bag if I don't get along w/ the 100's.

 

I agree with your above post completely Varsity.

 

I really liked the Adams thought they were a solid iron, just found them to be a little on the big size for my taste I like my blades to be on the smaller size. The Nike's are the best iron offered by any US OEM if they were Titleist or Callaways they wouldn't be able to keep them on the shelves. People who say they suck have not a) hit them or b) complete tards who's opinion should be avoided.

 

Nice pickup on the Mizuno MP-100's I am sure they will play as great as they look! Glad to hear you are going to be gaming them way to nice to sit in a box..

[joey3108]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103091

 

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/forgingahead.php

 

http://www.endo-mfg.co.jp/en/contents/outline/index.html

 

http://www.miuragiken.com/index.html

 

Ishihara Shoten forging house is for Scratch golf, Not sure if Ishihara have their own website.

 

BTW, my comment are base on facts and personal experiences.

 

J

[shuttle1]

Now as most people know just because Vega makes the same model head for other companies does not mean they are the same head from a material stand point. The customer will determine the quality of the metal used in the forging process, fit and finish however should be very close. Meaning that 2 heads could look the same but feel different.

 

I also used to believe that the Japanese forged the best clubs in the world and in large they do. However, I really believe any forging house is capable of making just a good product as Japan, yes even China. It is really up to the customer (OEM) to decide what the quality of the product will be and how much are they willing to spend to get it.

 

I believe this sums it up quite nicely.

 

Perhaps a poor analogy but one just the same... GM makes cars that cost anywhere from $12K each up to $100K (the new Corvette).

 

Do you want to spend as little as possible and get a car or do you want to spend more and get a race car? Lets face it, your budget helps you make that decision.

 

The OEM will usually spend as little as possible hence the lower quality forgings. When wanting to produce a "better" product, it cost them more money to do so. The materials used do make a difference in both cost and quality.

[apocalypsem3]

I really liked the Adams thought they were a solid iron, just found them to be a little on the big size for my taste I like my blades to be on the smaller size. The Nike's are the best iron offered by any US OEM if they were Titleist or Callaways they wouldn't be able to keep them on the shelves. People who say they suck have not a) hit them or b) complete tards who's opinion should be avoided.

 

From my memory Nike Vr blades had relatively long blade length... similar to MP-62 and TM MB Satin. I haven't seen Adams.. so I can't comment on its size.

[rymail00]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103091

 

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/forgingahead.php

 

http://www.endo-mfg.co.jp/en/contents/outline/index.html

 

http://www.miuragiken.com/index.html

 

Ishihara Shoten forging house is for Scratch golf, Not sure if Ishihara have their own website.

 

BTW, my comment are base on facts and personal experiences.

 

J

 

This Mizuno link was a great read. I have played cast irons all my life (Ping). My first set of forged irons should be here in the next couple weeks.

 

I like that the site broke it down for me, and gave great analogies between cast and forged. I really wish there were more great interesting reads like this.

 

Once again great read,

Thanks Ryan

[bovi]

Tom Stites designed all of the irons at Hogan before he left to take over as the head designer for Nike. So he knows a few things about designing a blade. If you are familiar with the older Hogan blades than you can see a lot of them in the Vr blades. The thing that stood out to me the most was the shape or the irons, if you didn't know they were Nike's you would think you were holding some Hogan's. The Nike's are shaped to perfection. Another thing that really stood out to me was the heel grind and this is where I think Tiger comes into the picture. They have a very flat sharp heel grind which is not common today most are rounded just pickup a set of the VR's and then compare them to TM or Titie you will see what I mean. Now if you know anything about Tiger than you will realize this heel grind is what is found on his older irons look at a picture of the Titie 681's. Not sure why this grind is no longer popular because I think really helps to set the blade square to the target and is probably why Tiger likes it. Sorry that was a little bit off topic just thought I would throw that out there.

 

The old school Hogan’s were awesome and they felt as good as they looked. They were forged in Fort Worth TX until 98 and that is why Hogan fans think anything after the 98 blade to be inferior. I had a set of 98 blades and they were something special I sold them like an idiot (one of few sets I regret selling). Any way I would rank them against any Japanese forging out there. I will also let you know that America had another forging house that was just as good and probably produce the best forgings in the world Hoffman. If you have never hit a Hoffman forged blade I highly recommend you buy a cheap set of EBay to try (Mac's, W/S, Spaulding). Once you get past how small they were you will be in forged heaven. Another side note the 681's Tiger played were forged by Hoffman.

 

Now the VR's are forged in China but, who cares they are a high quality forged iron that can hold their own against any other forged club out there. I mean do you think Tiger Woods would put his name on them if they weren't a top notch club, Tiger is anal and wouldn't put his name on a crappy product.

 

very informative, thanks.

[joey3108]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103091

 

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/forgingahead.php

 

http://www.endo-mfg.co.jp/en/contents/outline/index.html

 

http://www.miuragiken.com/index.html

 

Ishihara Shoten forging house is for Scratch golf, Not sure if Ishihara have their own website.

 

BTW, my comment are base on facts and personal experiences.

 

J

 

This Mizuno link was a great read. I have played cast irons all my life (Ping). My first set of forged irons should be here in the next couple weeks.

 

I like that the site broke it down for me, and gave great analogies between cast and forged. I really wish there were more great interesting reads like this.

 

Once again great read,

Thanks Ryan

 

My pleasure!

 

If you check all my post and understanding more and more what i do and did...I'm pretty confident that most members here knows that I'm the least self serving person unless i was being violated before.

 

I'm glad you can find the truth from those link.

 

Anyway, Side from that.....

 

We are all need to think from the business side of it.

 

China labor is cheap, so no brainer manufacturing are majority in China now. The same with Golf business. It won't matter JDM or USDM, majority are made in China now. Chinese manufacturing have no problem to accommodate any quality request from customers...It's just customers mostly want to fit them with their own budget to meet their profit margin what they are looking for. I know for sure a big portion of forged club are still forged in Japan, but majority of them have third world country for finishing job ( grind, plating, paint fill ) and I noticed lately some of them are even assembled in China too. I won't be surprise soon will shift everything to China or at least to a country where labor force is cheap.

 

OEM marketing and advertising are all white lies to me. There are some level of BS of it no matter who they are. Using a term that is hard to digest for average joe and fall for it.

 

Are all of that bad? Well, it's subjective answer IMO....This is why golfwrx exist. It's a place for you to read, learn and pick the right info and disregards all the nonsense/non productive post/er. Let's be honest, not all info here are also good. Remember, forums are for the extremist and that is only a small portion of golfers. Lots of Mr knowitall and Mr genius with a glass of koolaid on his right hand ...which some of us feel like a pester. That is a forum life after all.

[DRGJR72]

It was a great topic until Joe goes off topic and insinuates the OP is posting for other reasons than discussion.

 

Nobody's posts are more self serving than Joes. Yes it is just my opinion, which I'm entitled to. But that's the way it is.

 

Do I care you don't agree with me? No.

 

Will this post be deleted? probably.

 

Sorry, it's just who I am!

 

I'm not sure what the infighting here is all about but I do know that Joe is a sponsor of the website and does provide many hours of service to the site via email responses and post replies. While I am sure he makes a couple of bucks here and there I am not sure that it is efficient given the hours he puts in.

 

I for one appreciate his input and candor. He will call it like it is and whether you like it or not his information is typically true and on point.

 

I don't know how this thread moved off point...and not sure what the beef is but I have worked with Joe and he has been nothing but a fountain of knowledge with regard to some of the more exotic Japanese brands, specifically wedges. Some of the info he throws my way is really neat and intersting. I thought I knew a lot about clubs when I was in the industry...boy was I surprised.

 

As far as self serving...since I have worked with Joe I can say that he is the most unselfish person I have met in my time in the industry. He has been extremely generous to me with his time and knowledge and services. I have seen self serving in the golf industry and Joe does not fit that mold, imo.

[xxio]

It was a great topic until Joe goes off topic and insinuates the OP is posting for other reasons than discussion.

 

Nobody's posts are more self serving than Joes. Yes it is just my opinion, which I'm entitled to. But that's the way it is.

 

Do I care you don't agree with me? No.

 

Will this post be deleted? probably.

 

Sorry, it's just who I am!

 

 

I am into JDM (actually all golf equipment) and get my info from various sources not just one. You would be surprised what the perception is in Japan of some brands. They are not high end at all, they are not even that high priced in Japan street price.

 

BTW I find Joe's statements less self serving than most people who only hype what they have in stock. Joe will tell you if what he has doesn't fit you.

[joey3108]

Thanks guys!

 

BTW, I want to clarify a small misunderstanding.

 

My first post was not intended to any poster on this thread. I apologize to anyone think or though I was attacking any of poster/s.

 

I'm sure most of you knows what is going on.

 

Joe

[joey3108]

It was a great topic until Joe goes off topic and insinuates the OP is posting for other reasons than discussion.

 

Nobody's posts are more self serving than Joes. Yes it is just my opinion, which I'm entitled to. But that's the way it is.

 

Do I care you don't agree with me? No.

 

Will this post be deleted? probably.

 

Sorry, it's just who I am!

 

 

I am into JDM (actually all golf equipment) and get my info from various sources not just one. You would be surprised what the perception is in Japan of some brands. They are not high end at all, they are not even that high priced in Japan street price.

 

BTW I find Joe's statements less self serving than most people who only hype what they have in stock. Joe will tell you if what he has doesn't fit you.

Do I need to repeat what you are saying? ;)

 

Nah ! I've said that before. ::)

 

BTW, Our Boss Willy stopping by Monday...You need anything? Just text him ....:)

 

Need Tour Stage, Fourteen, OnOff, Mizuno, Vega, Miura? ha ha ha!!! Maybe you are waiting for Willy's left over ha? :D

[iteachgolf]

Thanks guys!

 

BTW, I want to clarify a small misunderstanding.

 

My first post was not intended to any poster on this thread. I apologize to anyone think or though I was attacking any of poster/s.

 

I'm sure most of you knows what is going on.

 

Joe

NO problem Joe and glad everything was cleared up. I knew but I think most people had a different understanding of what was going on.

[Sean2]

here is an older thread. i don't know if this will help or not:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...mp;#entry759233

[xxio]

Willy? Unless you now sell rangefinders someone is going to have some explaining to do. He told me on this trip rangefinder only.

 

I haven't bought a hand-me-down from Willy in a long time. Our equipment choices are going in different directions. I've had to buy new for 3 years now :russian_roulette: its more expensive than what I'm used to.

 

I do have some credit with him.

[joey3108]

Willy? Unless you now sell rangefinders someone is going to have some explaining to do. He told me on this trip rangefinder only.

 

I haven't bought a hand-me-down from Willy in a long time. Our equipment choices are going in different directions. I've had to buy new for 3 years now :russian_roulette: its more expensive than what I'm used to.

 

I do have some credit with him.

 

Classic! :)

 

He called and asked " What special toy in stock? :) "

 

Joe

[wbc2]

I couldn't make it to the holy grail this visit because I didn't have a golf bag to take home with me (my bad, forgot I wasn't on the airline that allows me to take a golf bag). But I will be back in December, and will be visiting our Main man Joe! I just hope Joe will still have some goodies left during the holiday season. w2

[bsc1872]

I tried Vega Blades and I somewhat stuggled to hit them (had a hard time hitting the sweetspot). I really wanted to hit them well but maybe my swing at the time was not up to it. They felt soft, almost like hitting a set of Mizuno's, but more demanding.

 

THen I went to my current miura blade/201 combo and had no problem hitting them. They feel buttery soft as can be and where easier for me to hit. 2 years and close to 400 rounds later I still wonder about that set of Vega blades, even though I am extremely happy with the quality and near perfection of the Miuras

 

 

Why not demo the combo set from Vega and put the exact shaft length, flex, weight and grip then you would have a more realistic comparison. The Vega blade is longer heel to toe than the Miura Blade so the off center hits will get a little better dispersion but it still comes down to the shaft when testing irons.

[bsc1872]

Tourspec and Epon are run by the same people and you have to be careful believing everything they say about Japan equipment because they are a business and want to sel there products and if people in the sates stop buying Japan issue clubs from them and start buying from the CUSTOM CLUB BUILDERS over here in the states that do have accounts with Japanese Golf companies. Then that will hurt there business because they charge a lot of money for there stuff and you can get a Launch Monitor Fitting, Custom Shafts, Custom Built, Japan Forged from high quality heads, grips, lie and lofts for what you can get just one driver off there site. :black eye:

[xxio]

Tourspec and Epon are run by the same people and you have to be careful believing everything they say about Japan equipment because they are a business and want to sel there products and if people in the sates stop buying Japan issue clubs from them and start buying from the CUSTOM CLUB BUILDERS over here in the states that do have accounts with Japanese Golf companies. Then that will hurt there business because they charge a lot of money for there stuff and you can get a Launch Monitor Fitting, Custom Shafts, Custom Built, Japan Forged from high quality heads, grips, lie and lofts for what you can get just one driver off there site. :black eye:

 

 

Not really run by the same people. Epon is run by Epon BUT Tourspec is a distributor for Epon. IIRC they used to be the exclusive North America distributor now they are an online distributor? That still means they have a great interest in moving a lot of Epon products.

 

Tourspec will always have great interest and knowledge in products they sell :)

 

Epon is not that big a deal in Japan. What I have heard is the big thing for Epon in Japan is the clubfitting experience that comes with it. The "they will build it for you from scratch, after getting you fit, (in person?)" is the premium you pay for when buying Epon in Japan.

[joey3108]

Tourspec and Epon are run by the same people and you have to be careful believing everything they say about Japan equipment because they are a business and want to sel there products and if people in the sates stop buying Japan issue clubs from them and start buying from the CUSTOM CLUB BUILDERS over here in the states that do have accounts with Japanese Golf companies. Then that will hurt there business because they charge a lot of money for there stuff and you can get a Launch Monitor Fitting, Custom Shafts, Custom Built, Japan Forged from high quality heads, grips, lie and lofts for what you can get just one driver off there site. :black eye:

 

 

Not really run by the same people. Epon is run by Epon BUT Tourspec is a distributor for Epon. IIRC they used to be the exclusive North America distributor now they are an online distributor? That still means they have a great interest in moving a lot of Epon products.

 

Tourspec will always have great interest and knowledge in products they sell :)

 

Epon is not that big a deal in Japan. What I have heard is the big thing for Epon in Japan is the clubfitting experience that comes with it. The "they will build it for you from scratch, after getting you fit, (in person?)" is the premium you pay for when buying Epon in Japan.

 

Hmmm, Maybe ;)

 

I would love to talk to the REAL guy behind EPON to find the truth to that, Than MAYBE MAYBE I'll handle EPON.

[xxio]

Tourspec and Epon are run by the same people and you have to be careful believing everything they say about Japan equipment because they are a business and want to sel there products and if people in the sates stop buying Japan issue clubs from them and start buying from the CUSTOM CLUB BUILDERS over here in the states that do have accounts with Japanese Golf companies. Then that will hurt there business because they charge a lot of money for there stuff and you can get a Launch Monitor Fitting, Custom Shafts, Custom Built, Japan Forged from high quality heads, grips, lie and lofts for what you can get just one driver off there site. :black eye:

 

 

Not really run by the same people. Epon is run by Epon BUT Tourspec is a distributor for Epon. IIRC they used to be the exclusive North America distributor now they are an online distributor? That still means they have a great interest in moving a lot of Epon products.

 

Tourspec will always have great interest and knowledge in products they sell :)

 

Epon is not that big a deal in Japan. What I have heard is the big thing for Epon in Japan is the clubfitting experience that comes with it. The "they will build it for you from scratch, after getting you fit, (in person?)" is the premium you pay for when buying Epon in Japan.

 

Hmmm, Maybe ;)

 

I would love to talk to the REAL guy behind EPON to find the truth to that, Than MAYBE MAYBE I'll handle EPON.

 

If you do have that conversation LMK how it goes. Can I send questions to you to ask? I'll make them as tame as possible :)

[Swoosh-Thud]

I just demo-d Vega, Ikasu, Scratch and Miura blades, all with KBS shafts. All are quality blades, it'd be a feel thing between them. Unfortunately the Ikasu came with an interchangeable shaft fizzamajig, which snapped after a few swings. Shame as I really liked those. These had the thinnest topline, resembled my Tour Grinds.

 

The Vega, Ikasu and Scratch had a similar crescent shaped muscle on them, the Miura had the straight type muscle. Kinda gave the three a similar feel/flight.

 

I preferred the Vegas, just friggin butter, striped and stacked balls, absolutely phenomenal!! Just friggin great.

 

I also liked the Ikasu, shame they snapped (though these had 5.5 shafts, the Vega 6.5). It was between these and the Vega (if you go by first swings....which I believe in, esp. drivers).

 

The Scratch were nice as well dunno if they'd replace my Apex II or Redlines, but I liked them.

 

I was very disappointed in the Miura. They just weren't my cup of tea. Even flushed shots just didn't wow me.

 

 

EDIT.................

 

After further review....

 

Hit em some more. The Vegas are a cannon. Flushed shots just are crushed...........but............after hitting some more in pretty windy conditions, the Miuras I felt were better able to move th ball.

 

I had complete control over the ball with the Miura. 3/4 or full shots trajectory control was phenomenal. I mean complete control of the golf ball.

[bovi]

I just demo-d Vega, Ikasu, Scratch and Miura blades, all with KBS shafts. All are quality blades, it'd be a feel thing between them. Unfortunately the Ikasu came with an interchangeable shaft fizzamajig, which snapped after a few swings. Shame as I really liked those. These had the thinnest topline, resembled my Tour Grinds.

 

The Vega, Ikasu and Scratch had a similar crescent shaped muscle on them, the Miura had the straight type muscle. Kinda gave the three a similar feel/flight.

 

I preferred the Vegas, just friggin butter, striped and stacked balls, absolutely phenomenal!! Just friggin great.

 

I also liked the Ikasu, shame they snapped (though these had 5.5 shafts, the Vega 6.5). It was between these and the Vega (if you go by first swings....which I believe in, esp. drivers).

 

The Scratch were nice as well dunno if they'd replace my Apex II or Redlines, but I liked them.

 

I was very disappointed in the Miura. They just weren't my cup of tea. Even flushed shots just didn't wow me.

 

 

EDIT.................

 

After further review....

 

Hit em some more. The Vegas are a cannon. Flushed shots just are crushed...........but............after hitting some more in pretty windy conditions, the Miuras I felt were better able to move th ball.

 

I had complete control over the ball with the Miura. 3/4 or full shots trajectory control was phenomenal. I mean complete control of the golf ball.

 

how do they compare to the hogan's you have? which model of miura blades did you try? miura or miura giken? i hear giken is Japan market.

 

are you looking at any other Japan blades? tourstage, fourteen, epon etc..

[Swoosh-Thud]

They are the US version. Hit em again today. Once again, complete control of the golf ball. My local pro hit em and said "Oh F**K" I guess he was impressed......

 

I've got 03 Apex (and another NIB set in the closet for when I wear these out) They are nice, but nuttin compared to the Ft Worth stuff. I've got 2 sets of Redlines. The most forgiving blade I've ever hit. And I got a set of Apex II (White Cameo). Which are just a wonderful set of clubs. Very workeable, but not as forgiving.

 

The Miura again are very easy to flight the ball, feel like butter. Like the Apex II only more forgiving. The Vegas are indeed a cannon, but a higher ball flight.

 

I may have to sell some clubs to avoid the "Boss' wrath" for them Miura.

[bovi]

[quote]They are the US version. Hit em again today. Once again, complete control of the golf ball. My local pro hit em and said "Oh F**K" I guess he was impressed......

I've got 03 Apex (and another NIB set in the closet for when I wear these out) They are nice, but nuttin compared to the Ft Worth stuff. I've got 2 sets of Redlines. The most forgiving blade I've ever hit. And I got a set of Apex II (White Cameo). Which are just a wonderful set of clubs. Very workeable, but not as forgiving.

The Miura again are very easy to flight the ball, feel like butter. Like the Apex II only more forgiving. The Vegas are indeed a cannon, but a higher ball flight.

I may have to sell some clubs to avoid the "Boss' wrath" for them Miura.[/quote]

hey thanks for the detailed comparisons. was wondering what it'd take to get some1 off ft worth hogan's

[PGE]

A quick point of clarification on the Old Vega v New Vega comment I hear from time to time... this is based upon the fact a few sets of Japanese branded Vega came to the UK prior to Professional Golf Europe beginning 'official distribution' in 2007 throughout the western world (with the exception of USA). The Japanese ones had Classic Muscle (now RAF-CM) and V-Cavity (now RAFC-01) on the head, a small VEGA logo on the hosel, were taper bore and chrome like finish.
We altered them to appeal more to the Western World by introducing the VEGA logo to the back of the head, the new model numbers, a satin (non glare) finish and parallel bore. Nothing changed in the forging process and the VEGA line ups globally are all forged identically.