irons too flat = push?

[jmac35]

I've been fitted several times over the past 5 years and every time it has been the same advice ... 2* upright.

 

I want to try and flatten my swing because I'm 5-foot-7 and I don't think I should need irons 2* upright.

 

I play to 9 hdcp and my normal mid-long iron miss is a fade bordering on slice (although with my driver my misses are generally straight pulls, rarely slices.)

 

I picked up some new irons that are standard lie and tried them out for the first time today. I was was having a hard time keeping the long irons straight, they were slicing about 15-20 yards. As far as I know a lie angle too flat would cause a push not a slice, is that true??

 

Also, my money club is my Cally X 21* hybrid which I use from anywhere between 200-220 yards. It is standard lie and I have no problem keeping it straight.

 

I'd like to keep the irons standard and try to flatten my swing, good idea??

[frozen_rope]

use www.pinggolf.com to get a correct club length and lie angle fit for your physique. Wear street shoes and be precise with your height and wrist to floor measurement.

Once you have these correct specs you will be best set up to make fundamentally sound golf swings.

 

I've been fitted several times over the past 5 years and every time it has been the same advice ... 2* upright.

 

I want to try and flatten my swing because I'm 5-foot-7 and I don't think I should need irons 2* upright.

 

I play to 9 hdcp and my normal mid-long iron miss is a fade bordering on slice (although with my driver my misses are generally straight pulls, rarely slices.)

 

I picked up some new irons that are standard lie and tried them out for the first time today. I was was having a hard time keeping the long irons straight, they were slicing about 15-20 yards. As far as I know a lie angle too flat would cause a push not a slice, is that true??

 

Also, my money club is my Cally X 21* hybrid which I use from anywhere between 200-220 yards. It is standard lie and I have no problem keeping it straight.

 

I'd like to keep the irons standard and try to flatten my swing, good idea??

[jmac35]

use www.pinggolf.com to get a correct club length and lie angle fit for your physique. Wear street shoes and be precise with your height and wrist to floor measurement.

Once you have these correct specs you will be best set up to make fundamentally sound golf swings.

 

I have been professionally fitted several times over the past 5 years, so I know that right now my irons should be 2* upright.

 

I guess I need to clarify my questions.

 

1) Is there any point in bending my clubs upright if I'm trying to flatten my swing.

 

2) Do clubs that are too flat cause a push or a slice?

[frozen_rope]

If by "professionally fitted" you mean someone has watched you strike balls, used a lie board, tape on the sole or face of the club, viewed ball flight etc... then that is someone likely "fitting clubs" to your existing swing. I do not consider that professional, and most of the time it is counterproductive.

 

A better way is to use the static iron fit at Pingolf.com, where you will get specifications for clubs to your body physique size, which is what will serve you best.

 

I understood your initial line of questioning, but the truth is you are asking the wrong questions. One should never try to "flatten his swing" , or do anything else to his swing for that matter. Your good natural swing comes from a sound address position. Get your address technique correct and your natural swing will emerge with a swing plane, positions, rhythm etc... that is a good natural fit for your body physique.

 

 

 

 

use www.pinggolf.com to get a correct club length and lie angle fit for your physique. Wear street shoes and be precise with your height and wrist to floor measurement.

Once you have these correct specs you will be best set up to make fundamentally sound golf swings.

 

I have been professionally fitted several times over the past 5 years, so I know that right now my irons should be 2* upright.

 

I guess I need to clarify my questions.

 

1) Is there any point in bending my clubs upright if I'm trying to flatten my swing.

 

2) Do clubs that are too flat cause a push or a slice?

[randomhero1090]

2) Do clubs that are too flat cause a push or a slice?

 

Let's just say this....

 

If the toe of the club contacts the ground 1st, the toe hangs back as the heel passes, leaving the face open.

 

If the heel of the club contacts the ground 1st, the heel hangs back as the toe passes closing the face.

 

I don't want to say that just because a club is too flat for your swing that you will hit a push or slice, because that just isn't true. There are a LOT of other factors in that equation.

[jmac35]

If by "professionally fitted" you mean someone has watched you strike balls, used a lie board, tape on the sole or face of the club, viewed ball flight etc... then that is someone likely "fitting clubs" to your existing swing. I do not consider that professional, and most of the time it is counterproductive.

 

A better way is to use the static iron fit at Pingolf.com, where you will get specifications for clubs to your body physique size, which is what will serve you best.

 

I understood your initial line of questioning, but the truth is you are asking the wrong questions. One should never try to "flatten his swing" , or do anything else to his swing for that matter. Your good natural swing comes from a sound address position. Get your address technique correct and your natural swing will emerge with a swing plane, positions, rhythm etc... that is a good natural fit for your body physique.

 

I've never heard that a static fitting is better than a dynamic one. According to my measurements I should flatten my irons. But the lie tape on an impact board says the exact opposite.

 

I'm just wondering, if i shouldn't try to flatten my steep swing plane or "do anything else for that matter," how will I improve? I;ve been between a 7-9 hdcp for 10 years and I've come to the conclusion that it's my ball-striking that is holding me back.

[varsityhacker]

I have been flattening my irons out over the last couple of months from 2 degree's upright to 4 degree's flat. I have no problems hitting draws or fades with my irons and I am taller then you. I would think that you are hitting a slice because the toe of your club is making contact with the ground first and is probably why you were fit for 2 degrees upright. Look at your divots, if you want to go flatter in your swing you need flatter clubs. I went in 2 degree increments each time and only after I could hit them at the current lie correctly.

[varsityhacker]

If by "professionally fitted" you mean someone has watched you strike balls, used a lie board, tape on the sole or face of the club, viewed ball flight etc... then that is someone likely "fitting clubs" to your existing swing. I do not consider that professional, and most of the time it is counterproductive.

 

A better way is to use the static iron fit at Pingolf.com, where you will get specifications for clubs to your body physique size, which is what will serve you best.

 

I understood your initial line of questioning, but the truth is you are asking the wrong questions. One should never try to "flatten his swing" , or do anything else to his swing for that matter. Your good natural swing comes from a sound address position. Get your address technique correct and your natural swing will emerge with a swing plane, positions, rhythm etc... that is a good natural fit for your body physique.

 

I've never heard that a static fitting is better than a dynamic one. According to my measurements I should flatten my irons. But the lie tape on an impact board says the exact opposite.

 

I'm just wondering, if i shouldn't try to flatten my steep swing plane or "do anything else for that matter," how will I improve? I;ve been between a 7-9 hdcp for 10 years and I've come to the conclusion that it's my ball-striking that is holding me back.

 

Having read your ball flight pattern and the lie of your clubs I would guess (not having seen your swing) that you come over the top or another way to state it swinging into your body which supports my belief that you sticking the toe in the ground causing a slice.

[yoonie]

Honestly, it depends. It won't exactly be a push or a slice, but a bit of both in varying degrees depending on the loft. It's not because the heel or toe of the club is dragging though, that's a common misconception.

 

Your reasoning is completely off though. "...because I'm 5-foot-7 and I don't think I should need irons 2* upright. " That's like saying because you're 5 foot 7, you should wear size 8 shoes. Shouldn't that depend on your feet, not your height?

 

Static fitting is a good start but not even CLOSE to a real fitting. Then again, every professional fitting will inevitably depend on the skill of your professional.

[jmac35]

Your reasoning is completely off though. "...because I'm 5-foot-7 and I don't think I should need irons 2* upright. " That's like saying because you're 5 foot 7, you should wear size 8 shoes. Shouldn't that depend on your feet, not your height?

 

I do wear size 8 shoes! :D :D

 

But I get your point. I have a slight over the top move that I can see on video when I slow down my swing and look at my transition. So I think if I can get rid of that my swing will naturally flatten.

[frozen_rope]

You will not hear that a static fitting is better than a dynamic fitting because there is no financial gain for business oriented people to promote static fitting. Also, most people just don't know golf so they make the incorrect assumption that since dynamic is relatively complicated it must be better than static. One common industry misconception is that "static is a starting point". This is false. Static is the starting and end point regarding "fitting". Anything more and problems begin.

 

So why are static measurements so valuable ?

Static criteria uses height and wrist to floor measurements , and was built on the premise that the player will achieve a correct and sound impact position. As a player this is what you want. Since static fit is tailored to your physique, this equips you with clubs which are the best fit to achieve solid ball contact using a sound swing. Static fit clubs actually promote and assist in making sound , effective golf swings. In other words, static fit clubs work for you, not against you.

 

 

If you seriously want to improve your ball striking you are going to have to take a step or two backward before you move forward. That means first using clubs static fit to your physique. Next learn the correct address fundamentals including grip, posture, alignment. These fundamentals are what influence the entire swing, from start to finish. The only "instruction" or "swing practice" worth pursuing is that which is focused on your address fundamentals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've never heard that a static fitting is better than a dynamic one. According to my measurements I should flatten my irons. But the lie tape on an impact board says the exact opposite.

 

I'm just wondering, if i shouldn't try to flatten my steep swing plane or "do anything else for that matter," how will I improve? I;ve been between a 7-9 hdcp for 10 years and I've come to the conclusion that it's my ball-striking that is holding me back.

[johnu]

You will not hear that a static fitting is better than a dynamic fitting because there is no financial gain for business oriented people to promote static fitting. Also, most people just don't know golf so they make the incorrect assumption that since dynamic is relatively complicated it must be better than static. One common industry misconception is that "static is a starting point". This is false. Static is the starting and end point regarding "fitting". Anything more and problems begin.

 

So why are static measurements so valuable ?

Static criteria uses height and wrist to floor measurements , and was built on the premise that the player will achieve a correct and sound impact position. As a player this is what you want. Since static fit is tailored to your physique, this equips you with clubs which are the best fit to achieve solid ball contact using a sound swing. Static fit clubs actually promote and assist in making sound , effective golf swings. In other words, static fit clubs work for you, not against you.

 

 

If you seriously want to improve your ball striking you are going to have to take a step or two backward before you move forward. That means first using clubs static fit to your physique. Next learn the correct address fundamentals including grip, posture, alignment. These fundamentals are what influence the entire swing, from start to finish. The only "instruction" or "swing practice" worth pursuing is that which is focused on your address fundamentals.

 

The only way static fitting can be any good is if your golf plane at impact is at the expected angle of the static model. This assumes that there is a perfect swing and that your swing matches that pefect swing. Even assuming, and that is a huge if, that there is a perfect swing for your body measurements, the odds are long against that you have a perfect swing, so your clubs are going to be poorly fitted compared to a competent dynamic fit which matches your current swing.

[bignose]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1834636' date='Jul 21 2009, 04:12 PM']You will not hear that a static fitting is better than a dynamic fitting because there is no financial gain for business oriented people to promote static fitting. Also, most people just don't know golf so they make the incorrect assumption that since dynamic is relatively complicated it must be better than static. One common industry misconception is that "static is a starting point". This is false. Static is the starting and end point regarding "fitting". Anything more and problems begin.

So why are static measurements so valuable ?
Static criteria uses height and wrist to floor measurements , and was built on the premise that the player will achieve a correct and sound impact position. As a player this is what you want. Since static fit is tailored to your physique, this equips you with clubs which are the best fit to achieve solid ball contact using a sound swing. Static fit clubs actually promote and assist in making sound , effective golf swings. In other words, static fit clubs work for you, not against you.

If you seriously want to improve your ball striking you are going to have to take a step or two backward before you move forward. That means first using clubs static fit to your physique. Next learn the correct address fundamentals including grip, posture, alignment. These fundamentals are what influence the entire swing, from start to finish. The only "instruction" or "swing practice" worth pursuing is that which is focused on your address fundamentals.[/quote]


Can you cite some actual studies that show either 1) that a static fitting is as good as a dynamic fitting (i.e. two test groups that hit the ball equally well from both types of fitting) or that 2) a dynamic fitting shows no improvement over the static fitting (again in terms of quality of the shot)?

I just like to see actual facts before just taking someone's word for it.

I think my primary thought is that the impact position is usually significantly different than one's set up position, so a static fit won't accommodate that. I also don't think that a static fit takes into account the different swing styles. As said above, assuming that everyone hits a textbook impact position is silly. There is a significant segment of the golfing population that is hoping that their purchase of new equipment will also bring them a better game. And while we all know that you can't just buy a better game, a fit to one's swing can allow one to play their personal game a least a little better. A large portion of this segment of the golfing population will be perfectly happy with this, because they aren't seeking a textbook perfect impact position, they are just seeking 3 fewer strokes per round so they can take a few more bucks from their buddies every other weekend.

[frozen_rope]

Why would anyone want to get "fitted" for a faulty swing ? All that does is ingrain and further promote faulty technique.
A player is much better off getting static fit to his body physique so that he is then well equipped to make fundamentally sound swings.
Sound impact position is similar for all top players. The one variable is the physique differences from player to player, and static fit address those differences from physique to physique.

[quote name='johnu' post='1835003' date='Jul 21 2009, 07:53 PM'][quote name='frozen_rope' post='1834636' date='Jul 21 2009, 02:12 PM']You will not hear that a static fitting is better than a dynamic fitting because there is no financial gain for business oriented people to promote static fitting. Also, most people just don't know golf so they make the incorrect assumption that since dynamic is relatively complicated it must be better than static. One common industry misconception is that "static is a starting point". This is false. Static is the starting and end point regarding "fitting". Anything more and problems begin.

So why are static measurements so valuable ?
Static criteria uses height and wrist to floor measurements , and was built on the premise that the player will achieve a correct and sound impact position. As a player this is what you want. Since static fit is tailored to your physique, this equips you with clubs which are the best fit to achieve solid ball contact using a sound swing. Static fit clubs actually promote and assist in making sound , effective golf swings. In other words, static fit clubs work for you, not against you.


If you seriously want to improve your ball striking you are going to have to take a step or two backward before you move forward. That means first using clubs static fit to your physique. Next learn the correct address fundamentals including grip, posture, alignment. These fundamentals are what influence the entire swing, from start to finish. The only "instruction" or "swing practice" worth pursuing is that which is focused on your address fundamentals.[/quote]

The only way static fitting can be any good is if your golf plane at impact is at the expected angle of the static model. This assumes that there is a perfect swing and that your swing matches that pefect swing. Even assuming, and that is a huge if, that there is a perfect swing for your body measurements, the odds are long against that you have a perfect swing, so your clubs are going to be poorly fitted compared to a competent dynamic fit which matches your current swing.
[/quote]

[yoonie]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1835340' date='Jul 21 2009, 10:16 PM']Why would anyone want to get "fitted" for a faulty swing ? All that does is ingrain and further promote faulty technique.
A player is much better off getting static fit to his body physique so that he is then well equipped to make fundamentally sound swings.
Sound impact position is similar for all top players. The one variable is the physique differences from player to player, and static fit address those differences from physique to physique.

[quote name='johnu' post='1835003' date='Jul 21 2009, 07:53 PM'][quote name='frozen_rope' post='1834636' date='Jul 21 2009, 02:12 PM']You will not hear that a static fitting is better than a dynamic fitting because there is no financial gain for business oriented people to promote static fitting. Also, most people just don't know golf so they make the incorrect assumption that since dynamic is relatively complicated it must be better than static. One common industry misconception is that "static is a starting point". This is false. Static is the starting and end point regarding "fitting". Anything more and problems begin.

So why are static measurements so valuable ?
Static criteria uses height and wrist to floor measurements , and was built on the premise that the player will achieve a correct and sound impact position. As a player this is what you want. Since static fit is tailored to your physique, this equips you with clubs which are the best fit to achieve solid ball contact using a sound swing. Static fit clubs actually promote and assist in making sound , effective golf swings. In other words, static fit clubs work for you, not against you.


If you seriously want to improve your ball striking you are going to have to take a step or two backward before you move forward. That means first using clubs static fit to your physique. Next learn the correct address fundamentals including grip, posture, alignment. These fundamentals are what influence the entire swing, from start to finish. The only "instruction" or "swing practice" worth pursuing is that which is focused on your address fundamentals.[/quote]

The only way static fitting can be any good is if your golf plane at impact is at the expected angle of the static model. This assumes that there is a perfect swing and that your swing matches that pefect swing. Even assuming, and that is a huge if, that there is a perfect swing for your body measurements, the odds are long against that you have a perfect swing, so your clubs are going to be poorly fitted compared to a competent dynamic fit which matches your current swing.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Everyone should get fitted for a faulty swing, unless they plan to someday be faultless. If that's the case...get back to me when you're perfect.

[jmac35]

Well, I just did the static fit at pinggolf.com and it fit me for brown dot (3* flat). That is quite different than the 2* upright that has had me hitting in the center of the lie tape for the past 3 or 4 seasons.

If I were to use my existing swing on clubs that are 3* flat my marking might be off the charts on the lie tape and I can't imagine I would be making decent contact.

I agree that a good swing needs to start with a good setup and fundamentals.

[b]Question[/b]

I was thinking about my swing and remembered a comment I received from a pro during a round about a year ago. He said my setup and grip were good but that my shoulders were a little open at address, and the ball could be slightly further back in my stance. He suggested that if I corrected these I would likely improve my ball-striking.

If I have gotten back to these 2 bad habits would it lead to the types of misses I mentioned in my original post??

[frozen_rope]

#1) double check your height and wrist to floor measurement, wearing street shoes. It is important to be very precise and accurate when taking these measurements.

#2) whatever specifications the Ping web fit recommends you may trust it. Karsten Solheim developed the criteria formula for this static fit system and it is now proven accurate for decades.

#3) you need to stop isolating "parts" or "habits" of your swing as though they are some sort of separate entity . The swing you have now is a direct consequence of your address technique, so if you are curious about why your current swing is this way or that way, then you may look to your address technique for the answer.

#4) start understanding that every part of the swing is directly related to other parts, so it is pointless to isolate individual parts of the swing.

#5) have faith that if your address grip-posture-alignment are all fundamentally sound then they will work together to originate for you your own naturally good, effective swing; without you ever having to "think" about anything during the swing.

[quote name='jmac35' post='1835534' date='Jul 21 2009, 10:43 PM']Well, I just did the static fit at pinggolf.com and it fit me for brown dot (3* flat). That is quite different than the 2* upright that has had me hitting in the center of the lie tape for the past 3 or 4 seasons.

If I were to use my existing swing on clubs that are 3* flat my marking might be off the charts on the lie tape and I can't imagine I would be making decent contact.

I agree that a good swing needs to start with a good setup and fundmentals.

[b]Question[/b]

I was thinking about my swing and remembered a comment I received from a pro about a year ago. He said my setup and grip were good but that my shoulders were a little open at address, and the ball could be slightly further back in my stance. He suggested that if I corrected these I would likely improve my ball-striking.

If I have gotten back to these 2 bad habits would it lead to the types of misses I mentioned in my original post??[/quote]

[jmac35]

Measurements were definitely right. I figured it would say 2 or 3* flat ... 5-foot-7 with average length arms.

I see you use irons 3* up. What are your measurements because that's quite a big adjustment in a static fitting.


I don't know what you mean about "stop isolating parts or habits", the two things I mentioned, shoulders open and ball position, directly relate to setup, which is all you have been talking about.


[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1835590' date='Jul 22 2009, 12:06 AM']#1) double check your height and wrist to floor measurement, wearing street shoes. It is important to be very precise and accurate when taking these measurements.

#2) whatever specifications the Ping web fit recommends you may trust it. Karsten Solheim developed the criteria formula for this static fit system and it is now proven accurate for decades.

#3) you need to stop isolating "parts" or "habits" of your swing as though they are some sort of separate entity . The swing you have now is a direct consequence of your address technique, so if you are curious about why your current swing is this way or that way, then you may look to your address technique for the answer.

#4) start understanding that every part of the swing is directly related to other parts, so it is pointless to isolate individual parts of the swing.

#5) have faith that if your address grip-posture-alignment are all fundamentally sound then they will work together to originate for you your own naturally good, effective swing; without you ever having to "think" about anything during the swing.[/quote]

[SUMM1T]

When you swing the club, your hands tend to move up and this is where the fitting process comes in handy. Hitting off of a lie board is the only true way to get fitted.


If a club is to flat, you will push the ball, if a club is to upright, you'll pull the ball. It's science.

Length will play a factor in this, so make sure you are comfortable with the length you're at. Some people need shorter clubs and some need longer. And a lot of it has to do with how comfortable you are standing over the ball.

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='jmac35' post='1834198' date='Jul 21 2009, 12:39 PM']I've been fitted several times over the past 5 years and every time it has been the same advice ... 2* upright.

I want to try and flatten my swing because I'm 5-foot-7 and I don't think I should need irons 2* upright.

I play to 9 hdcp and my normal mid-long iron miss is a fade bordering on slice (although with my driver my misses are generally straight pulls, rarely slices.)

I picked up some new irons that are standard lie and tried them out for the first time today. I was was having a hard time keeping the long irons straight, they were slicing about 15-20 yards. As far as I know a lie angle too flat would cause a push not a slice, is that true??

Also, my money club is my Cally X 21* hybrid which I use from anywhere between 200-220 yards. It is standard lie and I have no problem keeping it straight.

I'd like to keep the irons standard and try to flatten my swing, good idea??[/quote]


5' 7" and you were told to get 2[sup]o[/sup] upright? That seems backwards to me. Getting your irons adjusted (flatter) shouldn't cost very much. What have you go to lose?

[frozen_rope]

My measurements are 6' height, 37.5" wrist to floor.
I played for years with a standard length and lie set of Ping irons. Once Ping offered their web fit on line I used it and received spec recommendations of 3* upright lie, + .25" lie angle. Swinging Ping's standard length and lie I was able to get good accuracy by using extra effort to slightly manipulate the club, however quality of ball contact was not ideal.
Since I had grooved my swing for years using standard Ping length and lie irons it did take me 6 months of play and practice to get the results I wanted from my new set. Specifically, the change in specs to +.25 " longer shafts and 3* upright lie allowed to me to make a relaxed pace tempo pass at the ball and get quality ball contact with good accuracy. This is what you want from a set of irons, clubs that make the swing easier for you, not harder.
Regarding lie angle, the standard comment within the golf industry is that "lie angle affects accuracy". Or "too flat a lie angle and the ball misses right" or "too upright lie and the ball misses left". These type comments are misleading. In fact most experienced players can manipulate just about any lie angle club to get good accuracy results. Instead I believe what correct static club length and lie angle do for a player is allow him to swing with the least amount of effort, use his smoothest swing pace and rhythm, and still achieve quality ball contact with sharp accuracy.
To your question about "isolating parts or habits", I wrote because I wanted to you to change the way you've been thinking about your swing and instead start really learning the address fundamentals. For example, if you come to really understand and appreciate the grip you will see how that influences the position of your shoulders at address. Once in a while a poster here will show a video of his swing and ask for comments from the members here. From that I might make a remark about his grip and the OP or someone else will ask "how can you see his grip from such a long distance"?. The answer is that I can see from the orientation of his shoulders at address how he he is gripping the club. Remember that your fingers are attached to your hands and your hands are attached to your arms and your arms are attached to your shoulders etc...
So everything about a players address technique fundamentals influences everything else, they are all interrelated, and the grip is especially influential. To prove this go ahead and pick up a club and grip it several different ways. You will notice that each time you change your fingers or hand positions it starts a chain reaction where the position of your arms , shoulders, upper body, all change whenever you alter your grip. These big address position changes all stem from you altering your grip. Imagine what each grip change does to your positions throughout the swing.
It's not natural for player to have his shoulders pointed in one direction and the balance of his body pointed in another direction. If you've been told that your "shoulders are open" relative to your lower body, then the reason your shoulders are open is related to the way you are positioning your hands on the club (your grip).

[quote name='jmac35' post='1835604' date='Jul 22 2009, 12:15 AM']Measurements were definitely right. I figured it would say 2 or 3* flat ... 5-foot-7 with average length arms.

I see you use irons 3* up. What are your measurements because that's quite a big adjustment in a static fitting.


I don't know what you mean about "stop isolating parts or habits", the two things I mentioned, shoulders open and ball position, directly relate to setup, which is all you have been talking about.


[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1835590' date='Jul 22 2009, 12:06 AM']#1) double check your height and wrist to floor measurement, wearing street shoes. It is important to be very precise and accurate when taking these measurements.

#2) whatever specifications the Ping web fit recommends you may trust it. Karsten Solheim developed the criteria formula for this static fit system and it is now proven accurate for decades.

#3) you need to stop isolating "parts" or "habits" of your swing as though they are some sort of separate entity . The swing you have now is a direct consequence of your address technique, so if you are curious about why your current swing is this way or that way, then you may look to your address technique for the answer.

#4) start understanding that every part of the swing is directly related to other parts, so it is pointless to isolate individual parts of the swing.

#5) have faith that if your address grip-posture-alignment are all fundamentally sound then they will work together to originate for you your own naturally good, effective swing; without you ever having to "think" about anything during the swing.[/quote]
[/quote]

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1835698' date='Jul 21 2009, 11:09 PM']. . . the standard comment within the golf industry is that "lie angle affects accuracy". Or "too flat a lie angle and the ball misses right" or "too upright lie and the ball misses left". These type comments are misleading. In fact most experienced players can manipulate just about any lie angle club to get good accuracy results. Instead I believe what correct static club length and lie angle do for a player is allow him to swing with the least amount of effort, use his smoothest swing pace and rhythm, and still achieve quality ball contact with sharp accuracy . . ."[/quote]


I don't now as much about other people's swings as other players here, but I can offer my own lie angle anecdote. I'd been fighting a pull (and sometimes a pull hook) with my 8 iron and 9 iron for a couple years. I've spent a lot of time working on the basics: posture, grip, body alignment, takeaway, weight transfer, swinging along the target in the impact zone, making clean contact, and whatever else a person can work on. Meanwhile, I was debating which set of clubs to leave at a friend's summer home and took a few irons to the range to test. I hit short irons from every set right at the target - except my Mizunos. I'm not talking about GI irons either - 1984 Apex PC, 1987 Titleist Tour Models, and 1954 MacGregor MT Tourneys. I took my Mizunos in the next day to have the lofts and lies checked. Any guesses how the lie angles on the short irons had to be adjusted? Hint: rhymes with splatter.

[Shanks For The Memories]

[quote name='jmac35' post='1834489' date='Jul 21 2009, 04:14 PM'][quote name='yoonie' post='1834459' date='Jul 21 2009, 04:05 PM']Your reasoning is completely off though. "...because I'm 5-foot-7 and I don't think I should need irons 2* upright. " That's like saying because you're 5 foot 7, you should wear size 8 shoes. Shouldn't that depend on your feet, not your height?[/quote]

I do wear size 8 shoes!

But I get your point. I have a slight over the top move that I can see on video when I slow down my swing and look at my transition. So I think if I can get rid of that my swing will naturally flatten.
[/quote]


Steepness and over the top aren't really related. I hit with a massive inside out move, and yet have a very, very steep plane. My misses are huge pushes and snap hooks. My average shot starts 6° right, yet my plane is about 5° steeper than adress.


[quote][b]Question[/b]

I was thinking about my swing and remembered a comment I received from a pro during a round about a year ago. He said my setup and grip were good but that my shoulders were a little open at address, and the ball could be slightly further back in my stance. He suggested that if I corrected these I would likely improve my ball-striking.

If I have gotten back to these 2 bad habits would it lead to the types of misses I mentioned in my original post??[/quote]

Yes.

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='mjtoal' post='1834661' date='Jul 21 2009, 05:23 PM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1834378' date='Jul 21 2009, 08:40 PM'][quote name='jmac35' post='1834285' date='Jul 21 2009, 03:11 PM']2) Do clubs that are too flat cause a push or a slice?[/quote]

Let's just say this....

If the toe of the club contacts the ground 1st, the toe hangs back as the heel passes, leaving the face open.

If the heel of the club contacts the ground 1st, the heel hangs back as the toe passes closing the face.

I don't want to say that just because a club is too flat for your swing that you will hit a push or slice, because that just isn't true. There are a LOT of other factors in that equation.
[/quote]


Ground contact is not actually the issue. Imagine a 7 iron sitting square on the ground. OK, move the grip end towards your feet, so it approaches the ground. You have effectively closed the face. Like playing a shot off a slope above your feet. Nothing to do with ground contact. Likewise raise the grip end, you open the face.
[/quote]

I understand that......

But I can open and close the face without raising or lowering the grip. I can also have an open clubface, hit the ground with the heel of the club 1st, and have a closed face at impact. Or vise versa.

Again, way too much involved to just say that 1* off in lie angle is going to cause a push or a slice.

[jmac35]

[quote name='mjtoal' post='1834661' date='Jul 21 2009, 05:23 PM']Of course, but it is just important to realise that a club which is upright, although it may appears to be square, is actually closed, and the opposite for a flat lie. Simple geometry.[/quote]

Your explanation makes more sense to me. I have heard the explanantion about the ground opening or closing the face, but I'm thinking how is this possible when I'm hitting the ball first and my divots are ahead of where the ball was?

I'm thinking that what I was running into yesterday was because I was using irons with standard lie after using irons that are 2* up for the past 4 seasons. The face was naturally sitting a bit more open at address.

[MichMan123]

Upright clubs - ball goes left

Flat - Ball goes right.

All irons are different though. The burners come stock 3 deg upright. There is no standard. My miss is right so I should have my clubs bent upright but on the lie board and my swing plane, I'm always fitted 1 deg flat.
I paid $250 at a titlesit performance center for a 4 hour fitting session. He said I should bent my clubs upright a bit to combat a fade in the long irons.

I tried this and the toe is pointing up which I hate.

My solution??? Play clubs off the rack!!!!!! and get used to them.

[yoonie]

[quote name='mjtoal' post='1836312' date='Jul 22 2009, 11:37 AM'][quote name='jmac35' post='1836300' date='Jul 22 2009, 04:30 PM'][quote name='mjtoal' post='1834661' date='Jul 21 2009, 05:23 PM']Of course, but it is just important to realise that a club which is upright, although it may appears to be square, is actually closed, and the opposite for a flat lie. Simple geometry.[/quote]

Your explanation makes more sense to me. I have heard the explanantion about the ground opening or closing the face, but I'm thinking how is this possible when I'm hitting the ball first and my divots are ahead of where the ball was?

I'm thinking that what I was running into yesterday was because I was using irons with standard lie after using irons that are 2* up for the past 4 seasons. The face was naturally sitting a bit more open at address.
[/quote]

Same as with uphill/downhill lies. On uphill lies the club is too upright for the lie, with the toe up, and the ball should pull/hook if adjustments are not made. The opposite applies on downhill lies.
[/quote]

Easiest to see with a high lofted wedge, for those that still don't get it.

[TKing]

I always hear the argument for lie being off affecting launch direction because of one part of the sole hitting the ground before another part. This is just not a valid argument assuming the stroke is proper. With a proper stroke the ball has already left before any part of the club hits the ground.

The uphill/downhill analogy is a good one. Simple geometry.

[flyfishin4trout]

I got fitted at robofit for ping g10's. I did a full 1.5 hour fitting with a trackman monitor and hit prob 1000 balls. I am 5'7 and 140lbs. I ended up with 1 degree flat and .5 inches shorter shaft. And its been the most amazing thing I have experienced in golf. Its been a huge transformation in my irons game. I had been fitted with a board before and with the measurements and such but just getting out there and hitting balls tells the whole story. You just dial it in. Worked for me.

[fats]

[b]I never get fitted...I order my set from the tour department...They have my specs...I like say the 5 & 6 & SW irons 2* flat and the 7-8-9-PW-AW 3* flat ...all with a fanned open look except the SW.

I get them home and virtually always I must tweek the bends because I want them to go in a direction I demand which is never ever left...Usually they won't be flat enough...once I'm satisfied with the lie & Lofts I have a playing set...sometimes..flattening doesn't remove the very slight pull on a club or two...with those I pull the shafts and create a small bend just below the ferrel...that always corrects the problem. I hate left, so everything I have has an anti-pull built into them. That last feature, the side bend in the shaft below the ferrell tilts slightly to the right (EAST) and corrects either a crooked shaft tip or quite possibly a slightly off hole the shaft goes in.

Sometimes I use a slightly weaker shaft in my L blade for a softer touch and to get quicker shot elevation. (like a Tour Concept S3)

I might make a SW grip a bit larger to keep the hands more together...

So I go individual irons hitting bending hitting bending...after all that I know these clubs and with a pin left against the water I'll have no pulls into the water...pins on the far right are a cinch as I like to cut them in there and I'm perfectly setup for soft cuts with the equiment alone...toss in my planned swing action and it is hard to miss a shot or target.[/b]

Just another version of what y'all do above...and by the way...with this setup I can go very very hard on a shot and the ball will go straight.
Clubs setup for the individual.