The Golfing Machine=Frustrated

[fats]

[quote name='dietz' post='1945263' date='Sep 11 2009, 02:15 PM'][quote name='mjulian' post='1945246' date='Sep 11 2009, 02:01 PM'][quote name='dietz' post='1945166' date='Sep 11 2009, 01:13 PM']A guy that I know that works golf shows, had his booth next to Hank Haney about two years ago. He said they got to talking about Tiger one day, and Hank told him about the first time Tiger introduced himself to Hank... went like this

Tiger - Hi mister Haney, My name is Tiger Woods
Hank - Yes son I know who you are.... What can I do for you
Tiger - What do you think of my golf swing ?
Hank - One of the better ones on tour... why ya ask ?
Tiger - I have been working on sustaining my impact angle further down the line, and would like some help... think you would have some time to take a look ?
Hank - Sure no problem.

[b]This story says nothing about grip, setup, or the like...... The key here is the "Sustaining my impact angle further down the line"[/b]

Sounds familiar...... hummmmm ??[/quote]

Uhh, yeah....But the question, in the context of this discussion, is HOW would he achieve this? Right? So, is the answer to that through alterations/modifications in grip/setup/ball position/tempo? Or, alternatively, some form of intra-swing manipulation?
[/quote]

The "context of this discussion" has derailed so far from its start .... [b]it reallys doesn't matter. Its just a pissing match between those that believe and those that dont !![/b][/quote]

Well, would you please turn around to face'n the wall as you just pissed on my shoe!!! LOL I'll get a S&T teacher to clean'm up!!! LOL

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' post='1945333' date='Sep 11 2009, 01:55 PM'][quote name='12 piece bucket' post='1944700' date='Sep 11 2009, 07:43 AM']Great post! You called him a "neophyte"!!! Woooo!!! You are 100% correct. Phil I mean Mac is TOTALLY the most open minded dude in golf and has a set of cannolis the size of honey dew melons. He hit it in the hairy hole when he called Kelley out for being a plagarist . . . . I mean I got 100's of golf books and they ALL got bibliographies. He figured out that if you were gonna have a strong grip you have to have bend in your wrist . . . Kelley's dumbazz never figured that crap out. Catalog of components give me a freakin' break . . . you'd be better off with a JC Penney catalog trying to learn the optimum biomechanically advantaged swing pattern.

Just think how screwed those TGM morons would be if Kelley had access to one of them Billy Mays marketing schemes to spew all that 2-J-42-23-Red-Flanker-Motion-On-3-Break garbage. All you Yellow streak and Stanky Tilt hermos sitting around rocking out to your Lou Rawls and Yanni records at your little camp out in the backyard top secret club sessions need to call 1-800-GET-A-LIFE. "We gonna have cake and pie! I hope no bad people come! We'd better practice our limp wrist I mean bent wrist handshake some more. Push your hips forward longer not faster . . . ."[/quote]

Excuse me, but I really do not know what the heck are you talking about. I used the word "neophyte" in relation to Kevin (BTW, if you see below it was nothing pejorative in this word), not in relation to Homer Kelley.
As per Mac O'Grady and his activity which you want to put in bad light - I simply do not know what was the beginning of Mac's independent studies. I always believed that he left TGM because he thought it is not a complete work and the biomechanics part is totally absent. But if you have better info saying that he harmed Homer or stole his ideas - I will stand corrected and can live with that as well. Being almost 45-ys old I saw and heard about much bitter stories in our cruel world.

Cheers


[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1944782' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:37 AM']Bucket,

No worries, luckily, I don't know what neophyte means, if I did I would probably feel really bad. I wish I had a computer, I would look it up. Excuse me while I go brush my tooth and dry my back hair.

Kevin[/quote]

I used the word "neophyte" in a positive sense, describing you as a new convert to new concepts that you discovered not so long ago and you started to believe in this. In my country there is a saying - "strongest believers are always neophytes". I apologize if the English word "neophyte" is only a synonyme of "beginner", this is not obviously my intention.

Cheers


[quote name='dream_stryker' post='1944796' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:47 AM']Insightful post Dariuz. I've been reading up on neurology and the golf swing and my research is showing that the brain can't sent a conscious impulse to the body fast enough to consciously control any part of the swing after transition up to impact. If this is true (and it seems to be), doesn't that mean that most of our efforts to influence the swing after the backswing motion is finished amount to futility? In other words...the swing is programmed by everthing that comes before the end of the backswing. After that....its over until after you've struck the ball...then the conscious brain can execute whatever follow thru you intended. Has your research uncovered any information about this?[/quote]


Well, I am not in a position to talk about the neurological level since my knowledge is definitely too small. What I can say is that I tend to agree to you generally, but OTOH I am a strong believer in the unproven yet abilities of our subconscious mind, that possibly is in a position to monitor and impulse our body to move independently of the conscious mind/brain. This is e.g. how we are driving a car.

Cheers


[quote name='texan_golf' post='1944810' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:55 AM']a beginner or novice: [i]He's a neophyte at Golf[/i][/quote]

Why do you want to put me in a worse light than I deserve ? I meant: he is/was a neophyte in TGM, not in golf ! I may be not knowing English very well, but neither I am an idiot, nor a bad guy. Thankds for your help anyhow

Cheers
[/quote]

Dariusz, thank you for clearing that up, I did take it the wrong way. Too bad when a language barrier gets in the way of two guys who should be sitting down to a nice brandy and having a good discussion.

Cheers back at you,
Kevin

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1945371' date='Sep 11 2009, 02:17 PM']Dariusz, thank you for clearing that up, I did take it the wrong way. Too bad when a language barrier gets in the way of two guys who should be sitting down to a nice brandy and having a good discussion.

Cheers back at you,
Kevin[/quote]

No probs, Kev. And the brandy will be on me, since it is not the first time my English causes problems.

Cheers

P.S. Fats: thanks, Sir !

[mchepp]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1943743' date='Sep 10 2009, 02:49 PM']What is a good grip ? One in the fingers so that the club can naturally hinge and unhinge throughout the swing, without having to think about it. Grip also influences swing pace/tempo, swing plane etc... It's critical. Go to a Tour event and you will see different looking grips from the top view, but underneath these players are holding the grip/shaft within their fingers. Hacker amateurs don't hold the grip/shaft in their[/quote]

I don't mean to re-hash this thread but I wonder about this statement being a fundamental only because I know of a great ballstriker who didn't grip the club with this fingers. Moe Norman. It was a critical piece of his Natural Golf swing. He claimed the fingers were unreliable. He wanted to hold the club in the palm.

My point being I am not certain that all great players grip the club the same way.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='mchepp' post='1946057' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:58 PM'][quote name='frozen_rope' post='1943743' date='Sep 10 2009, 02:49 PM']What is a good grip ? One in the fingers so that the club can naturally hinge and unhinge throughout the swing, without having to think about it. Grip also influences swing pace/tempo, swing plane etc... It's critical. Go to a Tour event and you will see different looking grips from the top view, but underneath these players are holding the grip/shaft within their fingers. Hacker amateurs don't hold the grip/shaft in their[/quote]

I don't mean to re-hash this thread but I wonder about this statement being a fundamental only because I know of a great ballstriker who didn't grip the club with this fingers. Moe Norman. It was a critical piece of his Natural Golf swing. He claimed the fingers were unreliable. He wanted to hold the club in the palm.

My point being I am not certain that all great players grip the club the same way.
[/quote]

EXCELLENT point mchepp! You know, I was watching an older swing of Moe's on Richie3Jack's blog today, when he was younger, his swing didn't look all that different than we would visualize in a good player. A lot of his "idiosyncrasies" seemed to happen well after impact. Strange grip to get his forearms on plane, not so strange a motion... hmmmmm...

Kevin

[frozen_rope]

It's really something when guys choose to dig deep and trot out physically handicapped people or a one of a kind Canadian and hold them out as proof against traditional fundamental golf instruction.
I believe in taking the path of least resistance. Address fundamentals have been tested and proved effective for many decades. They work.



[quote name='mchepp' post='1946057' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:58 PM'][quote name='frozen_rope' post='1943743' date='Sep 10 2009, 02:49 PM']What is a good grip ? One in the fingers so that the club can naturally hinge and unhinge throughout the swing, without having to think about it. Grip also influences swing pace/tempo, swing plane etc... It's critical. Go to a Tour event and you will see different looking grips from the top view, but underneath these players are holding the grip/shaft within their fingers. Hacker amateurs don't hold the grip/shaft in their[/quote]

I don't mean to re-hash this thread but I wonder about this statement being a fundamental only because I know of a great ballstriker who didn't grip the club with this fingers. Moe Norman. It was a critical piece of his Natural Golf swing. He claimed the fingers were unreliable. He wanted to hold the club in the palm.

My point being I am not certain that all great players grip the club the same way.
[/quote]

[kosmosspoetz]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1946184' date='Sep 11 2009, 10:16 PM']It's really something when guys choose to dig deep and trot out physically handicapped people or a one of a kind Canadian and hold them out as proof against traditional fundamental golf instruction.
I believe in taking the path of least resistance. Address fundamentals have been tested and proved effective for many decades. They work.



[quote name='mchepp' post='1946057' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:58 PM'][quote name='frozen_rope' post='1943743' date='Sep 10 2009, 02:49 PM']What is a good grip ? One in the fingers so that the club can naturally hinge and unhinge throughout the swing, without having to think about it. Grip also influences swing pace/tempo, swing plane etc... It's critical. Go to a Tour event and you will see different looking grips from the top view, but underneath these players are holding the grip/shaft within their fingers. Hacker amateurs don't hold the grip/shaft in their[/quote]

I don't mean to re-hash this thread but I wonder about this statement being a fundamental only because I know of a great ballstriker who didn't grip the club with this fingers. Moe Norman. It was a critical piece of his Natural Golf swing. He claimed the fingers were unreliable. He wanted to hold the club in the palm.

My point being I am not certain that all great players grip the club the same way.
[/quote]

[/quote]


Traditional instruction works so well that we have a nation of slicers.

[TaylorMadeAP25]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1946184' date='Sep 11 2009, 10:16 PM']It's really something when guys choose to dig deep and trot out physically handicapped people or a one of a kind Canadian and hold them out as proof against traditional fundamental golf instruction.
I believe in taking the path of least resistance. Address fundamentals have been tested and proved effective for many decades. They work.



[quote name='mchepp' post='1946057' date='Sep 11 2009, 08:58 PM'][quote name='frozen_rope' post='1943743' date='Sep 10 2009, 02:49 PM']What is a good grip ? One in the fingers so that the club can naturally hinge and unhinge throughout the swing, without having to think about it. Grip also influences swing pace/tempo, swing plane etc... It's critical. Go to a Tour event and you will see different looking grips from the top view, but underneath these players are holding the grip/shaft within their fingers. Hacker amateurs don't hold the grip/shaft in their[/quote]

I don't mean to re-hash this thread but I wonder about this statement being a fundamental only because I know of a great ballstriker who didn't grip the club with this fingers. Moe Norman. It was a critical piece of his Natural Golf swing. He claimed the fingers were unreliable. He wanted to hold the club in the palm.

My point being I am not certain that all great players grip the club the same way.
[/quote]

[/quote]


Frozen.....are you ever gunna asnwer my questions....?????

[frozen_rope]

The physics of the golf swing, is that your area of interest ?

Look at it this way. Take a common alignment mistake by many players, including some scratch handicaps. Guys tend to enjoy playing right to left trajectory shots, so the natural tendency is to align their club faces and bodies right of the target line while addressing the ball. From this poor alignment address position all sorts of swing mistakes naturally follow, including a subconscious compensation to come over the top as a means to get the ball towards the intended target. The swing's pace is affected, rhythm (sequence) is affected, weight shift (pivot) is affected, the player appears to have his club shaft across the line at the top, quality of ball contact is diminished, control over the ball is diminished etc..... all because of the initial alignment error at address.
This is one example of how a mistake with address alignment can have negative consequences throughout the entire swing.

In general the physics of a goof effective golf swing is about a player having his body mass (weight) working for him parallel to the target line. Address posture, alignment, and grip all work together to make this happen naturally throughout the swing.

I am giving you good stuff worth learning because I love the game and am interested to help others just as people have helped me.
No I will not get into a nonsense TGM discussion about "conservation of angular momentum" or "geometrically oriented linear force"
or other crap that is a waste of time and counterproductive to anyone interested in playing better golf. No I won't answer your personal questions. If you want to learn something good that you can use to help your game I have given you information worth learning. If you want to be a punk wise as* kid playing mind games then I am not interested.





[quote name='TaylorMadeAP25' post='1946269' date='Sep 11 2009, 11:32 PM']Frozen.....are you ever gunna asnwer my questions....?????[/quote]

[TaylorMadeAP25]

[quote name='frozen_rope' post='1946311' date='Sep 12 2009, 12:13 AM']The physics of the golf swing, is that your area of interest ?

Look at it this way. Take a common alignment mistake by many players, including some scratch handicaps. Guys tend to enjoy playing right to left trajectory shots, so the natural tendency is to align their club faces and bodies right of the target line while addressing the ball. From this poor alignment address position all sorts of swing mistakes naturally follow, including a subconscious compensation to come over the top as a means to get the ball towards the intended target. The swing's pace is affected, rhythm (sequence) is affected, weight shift (pivot) is affected, the player appears to have his club shaft across the line at the top, quality of ball contact is diminished, control over the ball is diminished etc..... all because of the initial alignment error at address.
This is one example of how a mistake with address alignment can have negative consequences throughout the entire swing.

In general the physics of a goof effective golf swing is about a player having his body mass (weight) working for him parallel to the target line. Address posture, alignment, and grip all work together to make this happen naturally throughout the swing.

I am giving you good stuff worth learning because I love the game and am interested to help others just as people have helped me.
No I will not get into a nonsense TGM discussion about "conservation of angular momentum" or "geometrically oriented linear force"
or other crap that is a waste of time and counterproductive to anyone interested in playing better golf. No I won't answer your personal questions. If you want to learn something good that you can use to help your game I have given you information worth learning. If you want to be a punk wise as* kid playing mind games then I am not interested.





[quote name='TaylorMadeAP25' post='1946269' date='Sep 11 2009, 11:32 PM']Frozen.....are you ever gunna asnwer my questions....?????[/quote]

[/quote]
Thanks for the insult.but anywhos.
1.If the body mass(weight) is suppose to be goin along the target line would it not want to be goin forward at all times because the intended target is in front?
2.You are right about the aligment issues you posted about....but, wouldnt those issues come from and over exageration? So how do you hit a draw or fade? What are the traditional teachings for this?
3.The only one who made this personal was you calling me a "punk,wise a** kid".

[greenmatter]

classic scene...lol

[flower_drop]

i understand there are a half dozen imperatives and essentials. what are they?

[KevCarter]

[b]THE IMPERATIVES ARE:[/b]
1) A “Flat” Left Wrist
2) A Club head Lag Pressure Point
3) A straight Plane Line

The number one alignment is the Flat Left Wrist (at impact). The Flat Left Wrist is a Golfing Imperative. Without it, more information means only more confusion.

[b]THE ESSENTIALS ARE:[/b]
1) A Stationary Head
2) Balance
3) Rhythm

[dodger]

Every golf swing on tour is referred to in some fashion by the golfing machine. It is not a method, system, it is a catalog of components. It was designed for teachers, if you try to work on it alone, it is really tough. I put it down twenty years ago saying it was nonsense. I picked it up 3 years ago and it makes all other golf books pale in comparison. Both Jim Furyk and Ben Hogan's swings are explained in the golfing machine. There are so many different components, you could never look at a swing and say the guy was golfing machine trained. By the way, DL3 was definitely influenced by the book, his father was very aware of it as evidenced by his quiver transition. For fun, take a lesson by any authorized instructor, preferably doctorate level and there is no way not to improve. You do not need to read the book, but it is great when the door unlocks.

[Jeff Evans]

[quote name='dodger' post='1956866' date='Sep 17 2009, 02:14 PM']Every golf swing on tour is referred to in some fashion by the golfing machine. It is not a method, system, it is a catalog of components. It was designed for teachers, if you try to work on it alone, it is really tough. I put it down twenty years ago saying it was nonsense. I picked it up 3 years ago and it makes all other golf books pale in comparison. Both Jim Furyk and Ben Hogan's swings are explained in the golfing machine. There are so many different components, you could never look at a swing and say the guy was golfing machine trained. By the way, DL3 was definitely influenced by the book, his father was very aware of it as evidenced by his quiver transition. For fun, take a lesson by any authorized instructor, preferably doctorate level and there is no way not to improve. You do not need to read the book, but it is great when the door unlocks.[/quote]

Amen