Quick Question on Ball Flight Laws

[glc3344]

So i have been reading up on the new ball flight laws along with the stack and tilt book and i have a few questions.

 

To hit a push draw the face is open at impact but closed to the path so the ball starts right and draws back left. In the stack and tilt book they recommend hitting a push fade as it will fly further, but how do you hit a push fade? If your path is inside out and the face is open relative to the path wouldnt you just hit a big push? If path determines the curvature of the ball wouldnt you have to swing outside in in order to produce a fade?

 

If my path is 10 degrees inside out and the face is 15 degrees open at impact - it results in the face being 5 degrees open so wouldnt a push happen and not a push fade?

 

Can anyone help me out?

 

Thanks.

[DaveLeeNC]

In the example that you gave (10 degree open path and 15 degree open face), impact will impart a 'fade spin' on the ball as the face is not square to the path. So the ball will start out at maybe 11 degrees (per the new laws, initial ballflight path is MOSTLY face angle) with some fade.

dave

[glc3344]

So the shot would mostly be a push with a tiny bit a fade since the face is open relative to the path? I think what is confusing me is that the path determines the majority of the curve the ball takes so if i swing in to out how could it possibly fade - i would think it would just result in a push?

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='chipper3344' post='2076911' date='Nov 21 2009, 09:38 AM']So the shot would mostly be a push with a tiny bit a fade since the face is open relative to the path? I think what is confusing me is that the path determines the majority of the curve the ball takes so if i swing in to out how could it possibly fade - i would think it would just result in a push?[/quote]

All the ball knows is the path of the club vs. the face of the club - it has no idea where the target is. Watch my game sometime - then you will understand that last statement :-)

dave

[jaridyard]

If we shifted that 10º path/ 15º face left by 20º so we had -10º & -5º that would fade toward target. Same relationship.

[glc3344]

So i aim left and swing along my original target line as if i was going to hit a push draw and since im aligned left it will produce a fade? Is that correct?

[jaridyard]

Only if you get the face open to the path per your example.

[keithg24]

are you guys really thinking about keeping the club face 15 degrees open or closed in your swing???

[jaridyard]

[quote name='twounder24' post='2077052' date='Nov 21 2009, 05:50 PM']are you guys really thinking about keeping the club face 15 degrees open or closed in your swing???[/quote]

Sometimes better to use big round numbers to illustrate a point.

[10and8]

I found this document to be useful ... I hope it helps.

[url="http://www.buddyallingolf.com/images/Chapter2-BallFlightLaws.pdf"]http://www.buddyallingolf.com/images/Chapt...lFlightLaws.pdf[/url]

[glc3344]

[quote name='10and8' post='2077312' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:27 PM']I found this document to be useful ... I hope it helps.

[url="http://www.buddyallingolf.com/images/Chapter2-BallFlightLaws.pdf"]http://www.buddyallingolf.com/images/Chapt...lFlightLaws.pdf[/url][/quote]

Awesome! That document and everyone's comments helped me a ton. Thank you!

[KevCarter]

Chipper, that document is based on the "old" ball flight laws.

Kevin

[glc3344]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='2077327' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:39 PM']Chipper, that document is based on the "old" ball flight laws.

Kevin[/quote]

haha....yep noticed that after i posted. I glanced at it quickly and thought it was correct.

Thanks Kev!

Greg

[KevCarter]

[quote name='chipper3344' post='2077331' date='Nov 21 2009, 02:43 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='2077327' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:39 PM']Chipper, that document is based on the "old" ball flight laws.

Kevin[/quote]

haha....yep noticed that after i posted. I glanced at it quickly and thought it was correct.

Thanks Kev!

Greg
[/quote]

No problem Chipper. Also, I mean no disrespect to the author of that document. He knows more about the game than I could ever hope to learn. Times change...

Kevin

[10and8]

First off I'm sorry if I miss lead anyone but I honestly that they reflected the new laws.
Why do guys think he is describing the old laws? Is the way the diagrams are illustrated?

In another thread I asked for clarification on push-draw and I was told the clubhead would be open to target but closed to path ... wouldn't that be illustration 2-15

In is document the person states.

However - and this is very important – whatever the clubhead speed, the main
determining factor of ball direction remains clubhead position at impact.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='10and8' post='2077351' date='Nov 21 2009, 02:55 PM']First off I'm sorry if I miss lead anyone but I honestly that they reflected the new laws.
Why do guys think he is describing the old laws? Is the way the diagrams are illustrated?

In another thread I asked for clarification on push-draw and I was told the clubhead would be open to target but closed to path ... wouldn't that be illustration 2-15

In is document the person states.

However - and this is very important – whatever the clubhead speed, the main
determining factor of ball direction remains clubhead position at impact.[/quote]

No problem 10and8. We are all here to learn and in the same boat. When you go down to the pictures of the 11 ball flights, they show the ball starting on the path, where the new laws would show the ball starting where the face is aligned. Path to face is what dictates curvature.

Kevin

[10and8]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='2077362' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:58 PM'][quote name='10and8' post='2077351' date='Nov 21 2009, 02:55 PM']First off I'm sorry if I miss lead anyone but I honestly that they reflected the new laws.
Why do guys think he is describing the old laws? Is the way the diagrams are illustrated?

In another thread I asked for clarification on push-draw and I was told the clubhead would be open to target but closed to path ... wouldn't that be illustration 2-15

In is document the person states.

However - and this is very important – whatever the clubhead speed, the main
determining factor of ball direction remains clubhead position at impact.[/quote]

No problem 10and8. We are all here to learn and in the same boat. When you go down to the pictures of the 11 ball flights, they show the ball starting on the path, where the new laws would show the ball starting where the face is aligned. Path to face is what dictates curvature.

Kevin
[/quote]

Kevin, I think the diagrams are creating confusion here. One of the problem is trying to illustrate these new laws in 2-D ... BTW, James does a great job in 3-D with trackman data. The other reason I thought he was describing the new laws is the last 2 diagrams. If you look at them he clear starts the ball closer to club face and not the club path ... which to me indicates they are the new laws. Anyway .... I didn't mean any harm by posting that ... back to learning I guess.

10and8

[KevCarter]

[quote name='10and8' post='2077439' date='Nov 21 2009, 04:15 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='2077362' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:58 PM'][quote name='10and8' post='2077351' date='Nov 21 2009, 02:55 PM']First off I'm sorry if I miss lead anyone but I honestly that they reflected the new laws.
Why do guys think he is describing the old laws? Is the way the diagrams are illustrated?

In another thread I asked for clarification on push-draw and I was told the clubhead would be open to target but closed to path ... wouldn't that be illustration 2-15

In is document the person states.

However - and this is very important – whatever the clubhead speed, the main
determining factor of ball direction remains clubhead position at impact.[/quote]

No problem 10and8. We are all here to learn and in the same boat. When you go down to the pictures of the 11 ball flights, they show the ball starting on the path, where the new laws would show the ball starting where the face is aligned. Path to face is what dictates curvature.

Kevin
[/quote]

Kevin, I think the diagrams are creating confusion here. One of the problem is trying to illustrate these new laws in 2-D ... BTW, James does a great job in 3-D with trackman data. The other reason I thought he was describing the new laws is the last 2 diagrams. If you look at them he clear starts the ball closer to club face and not the club path ... which to me indicates they are the new laws. Anyway .... I didn't mean any harm by posting that ... back to learning I guess.

10and8
[/quote]

10and8,

You are absolutely right. I didn't get that far, those 2 pictures look correct. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, pretty sure it won't be the last...

Kevin

[mikestloc]

remember, the path numbers being thrown around are affected by the angle of attack.....the more down, the further "inside-out" is the resultant true path and the more up, the further "outside-in" is the resultant true path...

[jaridyard]

[quote name='10and8' post='2077439' date='Nov 21 2009, 11:15 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='2077362' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:58 PM'][quote name='10and8' post='2077351' date='Nov 21 2009, 02:55 PM']First off I'm sorry if I miss lead anyone but I honestly that they reflected the new laws.
Why do guys think he is describing the old laws? Is the way the diagrams are illustrated?

In another thread I asked for clarification on push-draw and I was told the clubhead would be open to target but closed to path ... wouldn't that be illustration 2-15

In is document the person states.

However - and this is very important – whatever the clubhead speed, the main
determining factor of ball direction remains clubhead position at impact.[/quote]

No problem 10and8. We are all here to learn and in the same boat. When you go down to the pictures of the 11 ball flights, they show the ball starting on the path, where the new laws would show the ball starting where the face is aligned. Path to face is what dictates curvature.

Kevin
[/quote]

Kevin, I think the diagrams are creating confusion here. One of the problem is trying to illustrate these new laws in 2-D ... BTW, James does a great job in 3-D with trackman data. The other reason I thought he was describing the new laws is the last 2 diagrams. If you look at them he clear starts the ball closer to club face and not the club path ... which to me indicates they are the new laws. Anyway .... I didn't mean any harm by posting that ... back to learning I guess.

10and8
[/quote]

I'm being picky about that PDF as it's not bad but the diagrams and flights are off, still 9 not 11, the two extra are flights already described but created in a different way, doesn't make them new flights.

I think this is fairly complete.

[attachment=498832:Flights.jpg]


[quote name='mikestloc' post='2077477' date='Nov 21 2009, 11:33 PM']remember, the path numbers being thrown around are affected by the angle of attack.....the more down, the further "inside-out" is the resultant true path and the more up, the further "outside-in" is the resultant true path...[/quote]

Absolutely correct but not really that relevant to the original topic.

[KevCarter]

jaridyard,

Thank you for that. Extremely helpful as always!

Kevin

[glc3344]

jaridyard,

That's what i've been looking for. Simplified everything for me. Thank you!

Greg