Miura, Kyoei Golf, Epon

[Golfdawg]

Just saying i have not hit the others, but i love my Epon's, in fact had a friend hit them the other day, one time, and then tells me to take it back. I asked why, and he says those feel too good, i can't hooked.

[FairwayFred]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:44 AM'][quote name='OutOfBounds' post='2152541' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:31 AM'] DOES THIS NOW MEAN, THAT SCRATCH IRONS & WEDGES ARE NOT FORGED ?

How would one KNOW that IRONS are actually FORGED - okay, okay - besides the FEEL ?[/quote]
Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .

The material for one is a good way to tell. True carbon steel is virtually always forged. The stuff made from 8620 is "form forged" and closer to casting than a true forging. Adams is the only major OEM I believe "forging" 8620 irons currently, Cleveland has in the past. While not truly forged they will still feel pretty good. All other irons made by Major OEMs that say forged are forged.
[/quote]

8620 is not really Carbon Steel it is a steel alloy that the golf industry has nicknamed "8620 Carbon Steel" as a marketing term. You cannot truly forge 8620 steel. You also cannot cast a true 10_ _ series carbon steel. If it is made from 8620 it is cast if it made from a carbon steel that starts with 10 and has 2 numbers after that it is true forged.

[Golfdawg]

[quote name='FairwayFred' post='2152606' date='Dec 31 2009, 11:03 AM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:44 AM'][quote name='OutOfBounds' post='2152541' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:31 AM'] DOES THIS NOW MEAN, THAT SCRATCH IRONS & WEDGES ARE NOT FORGED ?

How would one KNOW that IRONS are actually FORGED - okay, okay - besides the FEEL ?[/quote]
Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .

The material for one is a good way to tell. True carbon steel is virtually always forged. The stuff made from 8620 is "form forged" and closer to casting than a true forging. Adams is the only major OEM I believe "forging" 8620 irons currently, Cleveland has in the past. While not truly forged they will still feel pretty good. All other irons made by Major OEMs that say forged are forged.
[/quote]

8620 is not really Carbon Steel it is a steel alloy that the golf industry has nicknamed "8620 Carbon Steel" as a marketing term. You cannot truly forge 8620 steel. You also cannot cast a true 10_ _ series carbon steel. If it is made from 8620 it is cast if it made from a carbon steel that starts with 10 and has 2 numbers after that it is true forged.
[/quote]

thanks Ari, learn something new everyday on here, but the problem is it only brings out more of the Ho in me.

[OutOfBounds]

THANKS A BUNCH for the explanation GUYS!
8620 = Cast
1018 = Forged

[Geohans]

Epon forges their own irons, and they use a steel with a name like S60 or something. What's that?

[iteachgolf]

Epon is Endo's house brand, as Vega is Kyoei's house brand and obviously Muira simply uses its own name on its irons.

[prairiegolfer]

Obviously Miura is creating great forgings, but it does seem unusual that the hosel is separate and welded to the head given most have a one piece approach.
Is there some technical issue that causes Miura takes this approach? There are some bore-through designs, but interesting that a premium company separates the head and hosel.?

[Geohans]

and have they always done it that way? Or since when?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='prairiegolfer' post='2153395' date='Dec 31 2009, 08:27 PM']Obviously Miura is creating great forgings, but it does seem unusual that the hosel is separate and welded to the head given most have a one piece approach.
Is there some technical issue that causes Miura takes this approach? There are some bore-through designs, but interesting that a premium company separates the head and hosel.?[/quote]
centers the bore in the hosel is the claim. They believe it is more precise. Always has been done this way by them to my knowledge

[coops]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2153531' date='Jan 1 2010, 08:55 AM'][quote name='prairiegolfer' post='2153395' date='Dec 31 2009, 08:27 PM']Obviously Miura is creating great forgings, but it does seem unusual that the hosel is separate and welded to the head given most have a one piece approach.
Is there some technical issue that causes Miura takes this approach? There are some bore-through designs, but interesting that a premium company separates the head and hosel.?[/quote]
centers the bore in the hosel is the claim. They believe it is more precise. Always has been done this way by them to my knowledge
[/quote]

This is one explanation - another is that it's cheaper and easier to forge the body only and weld the hosel on after. Note that Rolls-Royce (Aero engines) use (or used to, it's been many years since i was there in Filton, UK) the same friction welding process in some of the fan blade disk designs, so it's possible to make an extremely good weld with this process.

Also - from my student days with R-R, the turbine blades which are at the 'hot' end of the engine and withstand extreme temperatures and centrifugal loads are predominantly CAST using the lost-wax process or 'investment cast' much like Ping uses. They are complex designs with internal voids to allow air from the relatively cool compressor end of the engine thru the body and out over the blade surface. The hot air from the combustion is at a [b]higher[/b] temperature than the melting point of the aerospace steel used in the turbine blade, and without this layer of cooler air they will not survive.

I've played and enjoyed Mizuno's and Pings (S59's) and now Epons... they're all good. It comes down to the material used and shape and weight distribution of the head as to what works best for you in feel and performance, the whole cast v forged thing is...... beside the point ( certain grades of steels are best suited for forging and some for casting, and the more complex shapes are better suited to casting and so on...)

Coops

[Shoutout33]

I thought that Keoyi had their own inhouse line of irons. Check pics below:

[attachment=515816:raf501ismall.jpg][attachment=515813:zestaimmusclesmall.jpg]

[attachment=515815:toeheelsmall.jpg][attachment=515814:vmusclesmall.jpg]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Shoutout33' post='2154977' date='Jan 1 2010, 07:23 PM']I thought that Keoyi had their own inhouse line of irons. Check pics below:

[attachment=515816:raf501ismall.jpg][attachment=515813:zestaimmusclesmall.jpg]

[attachment=515815:toeheelsmall.jpg][attachment=515814:vmusclesmall.jpg][/quote]
Vega is the US and UK inhouse brand

[joncooper]

[size=1][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 09:44 AM']Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .[/quote][/size]

Where and who does the intial casting of the Scratch 8620 Wedges?

[FairwayFred]

[quote name='joncooper' post='2155718' date='Jan 2 2010, 12:45 AM'][size=1][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 09:44 AM']Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .[/quote][/size]

Where and who does the intial casting of the Scratch 8620 Wedges?
[/quote]

The 8620s are cast in China.

[B Keller]

I hit multiple offerings from Miura, KZG, Vega and Epon today. In the end it came down to the KZG Forged III and the Epon AF-701. There was very little difference between the two in both feel and distance on FlightScope.

I went with the KZG (5-PW) because I was getting their wedges (50, 54, 58) and hybrids (3 & 4). They were also about $200 bucks cheaper on the irons.

I go back next week to watch the irons built and get fit for driver and 4-wood. I may also go with a Piretti prototype that my fitter has.

[Geohans]

Keller, where/how/who is setting you up with the opportunity to hit all that stuff?

[Relaxxx]

Are the Titleist ZM and Mb irons and the Mizuno Mp-68 and Mp-67 irons true forgings?

[B Keller]

[quote name='Geohans' post='2157429' date='Jan 2 2010, 11:40 PM']Keller, where/how/who is setting you up with the opportunity to hit all that stuff?[/quote]
I am going to a place in Euless, TX called The Golf Station. It is run by a former Nationwide Tour player named Tim Brantley. He is a founding member of something called the International Professional Association of ClubFitters (IPAC) and has been rated a top 100 club fitter by KZG since 2007, which is when he opened his business. Basically when he missed a cut he would hang out in a tour van and learn all about club making and fitting.

He is a authorized dealer for Muira, Scratch, KZG, Epon, Vega, Tom Wishon, and at least one other Japanese brand I can't remember right now. He also has some Piretti putters. I spent about 2.5 hours in his shop today talking and hitting irons and hybrids. I got my iron, hybrids, and wedges set today.

I am going back next week to watch my set get put together and also do my woods/putter/ball fitting. I am spending more money than I intended, but I can play these clubs until I am a single digit HC. He told me that he has guys come in and have their old stuff re-grooved because they don't want to upgrade. Apparently some local pro players go here too.

EDIT: added Vega to brands offered.

[deakanutz]

This is one explanation - another is that it's cheaper and easier to forge the body only and weld the hosel on after.

Exactly

[prairiegolfer]

Eternal envoy, check out the 'forging' story at Mizuno gold website or kzggolf.com website...it will help understand the forging process...hope that helps..

[devlin3000]

ok fellas there's some really excellent knowledge on this post with people that know their 'stuff'so here is a question for anyone who can help...the taylormade R7 Japanese version are forged units i believe.so the questions are this. Is Muira the company that forges these clubs for Taylormade? or is it Endo?The second question is are these forgings done in Japan or Taiwan?Lastly since I read a post that suggests the Nike forged irons are made in Taiwan does this include the CCI forged off the rack units? and what about the tour units? who forges these?

[ted_ray_jr]

why do you guys want irons to feel super soft? doesn't that translate to distance loss? i like ping irons because they're solid and i know they're really compressing the ball. no loss of distance there. pings have always seemed the longest irons to me.

[appilags]

[quote name='deakanutz' date='06 January 2010 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1262732842' post='2163311']
This is one explanation - another is that it's cheaper and easier to forge the body only and weld the hosel on after.

Exactly
[/quote]

Friction welding done properly, is not what I would call a cheap process and it is certainly not easy to do well.

[rjklein4470]

[quote name='appilags' date='16 January 2010 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1263653655' post='2184834']
[quote name='deakanutz' date='06 January 2010 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1262732842' post='2163311']
This is one explanation - another is that it's cheaper and easier to forge the body only and weld the hosel on after.

Exactly
[/quote]

Friction welding done properly, is not what I would call a cheap process and it is certainly not easy to do well.
[/quote]
I agree, I would think it would be just the opposite. I have played Miura and own several sets and they are very nice irons. I also own a set of callaway proto's and I like them better than the Miura's. However in a couple days I will be getting my SB-1's from Ari and I cant wait.

[cjordan01]

[quote name='FairwayFred' date='31 December 2009 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1262275423' post='2152606']
[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:44 AM'][quote name='OutOfBounds' post='2152541' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:31 AM'] DOES THIS NOW MEAN, THAT SCRATCH IRONS & WEDGES ARE NOT FORGED ?

How would one KNOW that IRONS are actually FORGED - okay, okay - besides the FEEL ?[/quote]
Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .

The material for one is a good way to tell. True carbon steel is virtually always forged. The stuff made from 8620 is "form forged" and closer to casting than a true forging. Adams is the only major OEM I believe "forging" 8620 irons currently, Cleveland has in the past. While not truly forged they will still feel pretty good. All other irons made by Major OEMs that say forged are forged.
[/quote]

8620 is not really Carbon Steel it is a steel alloy that the golf industry has nicknamed "8620 Carbon Steel" as a marketing term. You cannot truly forge 8620 steel. You also cannot cast a true 10_ _ series carbon steel. If it is made from 8620 it is cast if it made from a carbon steel that starts with 10 and has 2 numbers after that it is true forged.
[/quote]

You CAN CAST 10 series carbon steels. I am not a metallurgist, however ....

Shelmet casting will cast 1025.....
http://www.shelmetcastings.com/alloys.html

jbcastings will cast 1018 and 1020
http://www.jbcastings.com/blog/?cat=14

Castability is listed as fair....
http://www.hitchiner.com/documents/Alloy_list.pdf

I have never heard of anyone casting 1018, however to say it cannot be done is incorrect. I would assume with a casting rating of fair probably not worth it to try and cast, but with Mag Bronze having a castability of poor it cannot be too difficult.

You can also see how easy it is to cast other metals via this chart, now whether or not this is widely accepted I am not sure.

[Flames20]

so Scratch irons are forged at the same foundry as Ikasu's?? if so that is great as Ikasu's are amazing irons. As my club fitter here in Calgary is going to become a scratch dealer(or so i have been informed) I can't wait to demo them.

[tsupo]

kyoei for me. just hitting my straps with my new set now. v muscle blades. on fluffy lies just the purest.. butter.

[one9reasons]

I've played the Miuras (CB102's and 202's) and I have to say that there isn't another company out there whose final forged product is as nice and "buttery" feeling as these. Too bad I got rid of the 202's! I have hit Epon and Vega before but didn't get the feedback as with the Miura's.

[Swoosh-Thud]

I love my Miura TBs, buttery smooth irons. I hit the Vega, Scratch and another blade can't remember and thought the Miuras really controlled the flight the best. That being said I'm not sold on the wedges. Prolly gonna pull them from my bag and put my Vegas and Scratch 60 back in.

[igibliss]

My vote goes for Epon. Haven't tried Miuras but have played the Gauge Design NC-1's originally forged by Kyoei. Currently playing the Type X's. They are older model but have worked very well for me. Thinking about moving on the the 501's. Well see.