Frequency or Swing Weight?

[imaplus3wannaplay]

Which is more important

I have been trying to find a way to frequency match and swing weight match irons. It's almost impossible without being able to pick your shafts by hand using a frequency analyzer.

I know that finding a frequency that feels smooth is great and can make all clubs feel the same if frequency matched. So why do so many people worry about swing weight? I can't tell the difference between a 7 with a D2 or a D4, and I'm a very good ball striker. Do I really need to worry about swing weight? I'm starting to think it's pointless to exactly match swing weight as long as the set is within 1 or 2 swing weights and the entire set has an even overall club weight progression.

Any help would be appreciated!

[B Keller]

I'm not an expert, but I would guess getting your proper CPM count is the most important aspect and the swingweight can by fixed from that.

You may not feel a difference between D2 and D4, but they may just be because a shorter and heavier club is heavier and the mass plus slower swing speed would feel the same as a longer club that is lighter and swing faster.

OK guys....tear me apart of let me know I actually understand some of this stuff.

[PGA_09]

CPM and swing weight are intertwined, as clubs get shorter, the head must get heavier to keep the swing weights the same through the set. As a result of getting shorter, the CPM will increase, you want to have the difference in CPM from club to club to be consistent.
To measure mine, I plotted each iron's CPM in my set and plotted them on a graph with the CPM as the y axis and the length as the x axis. I then drew a straight line from the first dot (3 iron) through the last dot (PW) and was looking for all of the dots for each iron in between to fall on that line. Any one that was not on that line, the frequency was off. I am pleased to say that they were all within one to two cycles of falling directly on the line and the swing weights all matched except for the PW which was a bit heavier.

[B Keller]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1265507592' post='2232999']
CPM and swing weight are intertwined, as clubs get shorter, the head must get heavier to keep the swing weights the same through the set. As a result of getting shorter, the CPM will increase, you want to have the difference in CPM from club to club to be consistent.
To measure mine, I plotted each iron's CPM in my set and plotted them on a graph with the CPM as the y axis and the length as the x axis. I then drew a straight line from the first dot (3 iron) through the last dot (PW) and was looking for all of the dots for each iron in between to fall on that line. Any one that was not on that line, the frequency was off. I am pleased to say that they were all within one to two cycles of falling directly on the line and the swing weights all matched except for the PW which was a bit heavier.
[/quote]
Sounds like I had the idea, though after reading my post again I was about as clear as mud in describing it.

[Yepyukon]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='06 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1265477772' post='2231939']
I have been trying to find a way to frequency match and swing weight match irons. It's almost impossible without being able to pick your shafts by hand using a frequency analyzer.

I know that finding a frequency that feels smooth is great and can make all clubs feel the same if frequency matched. So why do so many people worry about swing weight? I can't tell the difference between a 7 with a D2 or a D4, and I'm a very good ball striker. Do I really need to worry about swing weight? I'm starting to think it's pointless to exactly match swing weight as long as the set is within 1 or 2 swing weights and the entire set has an even overall club weight progression.

Any help would be appreciated!
[/quote]


Is why I play True Temper Black Gold shafts. They are frequency matched shafts so when you install them, they play +/- 1 CPM

[url="http://truetemper.com/golf/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=19&osCsid=1r7ojv78dtjejc49dorhm8gup7"]http://truetemper.co...ejc49dorhm8gup7[/url] there is a link you can find more information on them.

Hope this helps, is the only shaft I play in any of my irons anymore.

And yes, you should worry about Swing Weight as it can have an effect on your ball flight and distance. My irons are D4 and my wedges are D5.

[mac94]

[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I appreciate and understand all that you guys are saying, but you are both right and wrong. Swing weight adjustment can only be an accurate adjustment for CPM if the CPMs match before install. I am using TT Dynamic Gold Tour Issue shafts that have a +/- .25 CPM tolerance and a +/- .25 gram weight tolerance. I have come to the conclusion that frequency and swing weight cannot be exact. I have got them all adjusted to within +/- 1.25 CPM and +/- 1 swing weight.

Maybe I'm just being too picky. I'm dealing with very high end equipment and wanted to get it perfect. I suppose it may not be possible. I just don't understand why. The head weights were perfect. The shaft weights were perfect. All the CPMs were perfect before install (pre-cut DG Tour Issue shafts). Grip weights were perfect. I even weighted out the epoxy, ferrules, and dowel inserts.

Am I being too picky with my tolerances? What should they be?

[PGA_09]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='06 February 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1265513813' post='2233271']
I appreciate and understand all that you guys are saying, but you are both right and wrong. Swing weight adjustment can only be an accurate adjustment for CPM if the CPMs match before install. I am using TT Dynamic Gold Tour Issue shafts that have a +/- .25 CPM tolerance and a +/- .25 gram weight tolerance. I have come to the conclusion that frequency and swing weight cannot be exact. I have got them all adjusted to within +/- 1.25 CPM and +/- 1 swing weight.

Maybe I'm just being too picky. I'm dealing with very high end equipment and wanted to get it perfect. I suppose it may not be possible. I just don't understand why. The head weights were perfect. The shaft weights were perfect. All the CPMs were perfect before install (pre-cut DG Tour Issue shafts). Grip weights were perfect. I even weighted out the epoxy, ferrules, and dowel inserts.

Am I being too picky with my tolerances? What should they be?
[/quote]

Did you measure hosel insertion depths? If the amount butt cut off of the shafts was off by a little bit, it will change the frequency a small amount. As far as swing weight, the amount of tape that was used and the length down the shaft that it was placed can make such small variances that you are mentioning. How much epoxy was wiped off of the hosel after insertion can also have miniscule affects. If you add all of these factors together, you may come up with the slight variances that you are mentioning. Then you add in the dowels, are they inserted to the same depth in the shafts, was the weight equally distributed in them prior to installation? I was nowhere near as picky as you in assembling my irons, but I have a perfect ratio of five cycles from one club to the next and the swing weights are within a half point in every iron save the PW which is 1 point heavier than the rest by design.

[drpino]

DG Tour Issue S400/X100 are not frequency matched.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1265514049' post='2233281']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='06 February 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1265513813' post='2233271']
I appreciate and understand all that you guys are saying, but you are both right and wrong. Swing weight adjustment can only be an accurate adjustment for CPM if the CPMs match before install. I am using TT Dynamic Gold Tour Issue shafts that have a +/- .25 CPM tolerance and a +/- .25 gram weight tolerance. I have come to the conclusion that frequency and swing weight cannot be exact. I have got them all adjusted to within +/- 1.25 CPM and +/- 1 swing weight.

Maybe I'm just being too picky. I'm dealing with very high end equipment and wanted to get it perfect. I suppose it may not be possible. I just don't understand why. The head weights were perfect. The shaft weights were perfect. All the CPMs were perfect before install (pre-cut DG Tour Issue shafts). Grip weights were perfect. I even weighted out the epoxy, ferrules, and dowel inserts.

Am I being too picky with my tolerances? What should they be?
[/quote]




Did you measure hosel insertion depths? If the amount butt cut off of the shafts was off by a little bit, it will change the frequency a small amount. As far as swing weight, the amount of tape that was used and the length down the shaft that it was placed can make such small variances that you are mentioning. How much epoxy was wiped off of the hosel after insertion can also have miniscule affects. If you add all of these factors together, you may come up with the slight variances that you are mentioning. Then you add in the dowels, are they inserted to the same depth in the shafts, was the weight equally distributed in them prior to installation? I was nowhere near as picky as you in assembling my irons, but I have a perfect ratio of five cycles from one club to the next and the swing weights are within a half point in every iron save the PW which is 1 point heavier than the rest by design.
[/quote]


I measured the tape the same in each club. The dowels were weighted but I think they could be the problem. It is difficult to get them driven down the same amount in the shaft. They drove down to within .25 inches from the shaft tip, but it is almost impossible to get them perfect. Therefore, there could be a little extra epoxy in the bottom of some shafts than others. The bore depths were all the same.

Thanks!

[PGA_09]

Is there a correlation in how the clubs are off, if the swing weight is one point higher, are the shaft CPM readings lower? One point lighter and higher CPM? If that is the case, it is easy enough to correct by adjusting the head weights, if it is the opposite (heavier swing weight with higher CPM), you are probably not going to be able to get them spot on. I would say put them through their paces on the course/range and see if any of them feel off to you before ripping any of them apart and redoing them.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1265517178' post='2233388']
Is there a correlation in how the clubs are off, if the swing weight is one point higher, are the shaft CPM readings lower? One point lighter and higher CPM? If that is the case, it is easy enough to correct by adjusting the head weights, if it is the opposite (heavier swing weight with higher CPM), you are probably not going to be able to get them spot on. I would say put them through their paces on the course/range and see if any of them feel off to you before ripping any of them apart and redoing them.
[/quote]

I have a perfect 4 CPM progression and 6 gram overall club weight progression. The swing weights are just off slightly. Thanks for your input though!

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='drpino' date='06 February 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1265514612' post='2233304']
DG Tour Issue S400/X100 are not frequency matched.
[/quote]

I frequency tested them all before install. I used a 200 gram weight. They were all perfect. Therefore, I would say that they are frequency matched, or at least these ones were.

[PGA_09]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1265567289' post='2234255']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1265517178' post='2233388']
Is there a correlation in how the clubs are off, if the swing weight is one point higher, are the shaft CPM readings lower? One point lighter and higher CPM? If that is the case, it is easy enough to correct by adjusting the head weights, if it is the opposite (heavier swing weight with higher CPM), you are probably not going to be able to get them spot on. I would say put them through their paces on the course/range and see if any of them feel off to you before ripping any of them apart and redoing them.
[/quote]

I have a perfect 4 CPM progression and 6 gram overall club weight progression. The swing weights are just off slightly. Thanks for your input though!
[/quote]

If all of those things are matched, it is a build error, sorry to say. My bet is on the dowels.

[chickenpotpie]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='06 February 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1265513813' post='2233271']
I have got them all adjusted to within +/- 1.25 CPM and +/- 1 swing weight.

[/quote]

That's pretty damn close, especially on the CPM's. If you are trying to get better than that, I think it's a whole lot of effort for diminishing returns.

EDIT: have you given any thought to MOI matching? This might help, since the 3 iron would have the lightest SW, moving up about .3-.4 points per club from there. That will make the clubs all feel the same dynamically, not just when you waggle them.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1265573953' post='2234413']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1265567289' post='2234255']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1265517178' post='2233388']
Is there a correlation in how the clubs are off, if the swing weight is one point higher, are the shaft CPM readings lower? One point lighter and higher CPM? If that is the case, it is easy enough to correct by adjusting the head weights, if it is the opposite (heavier swing weight with higher CPM), you are probably not going to be able to get them spot on. I would say put them through their paces on the course/range and see if any of them feel off to you before ripping any of them apart and redoing them.
[/quote]

I have a perfect 4 CPM progression and 6 gram overall club weight progression. The swing weights are just off slightly. Thanks for your input though!
[/quote]

If all of those things are matched, it is a build error, sorry to say. My bet is on the dowels.
[/quote]

I agree it's probably the dowels, but it would be a stretch to call it a "build error". Have you ever checked the specs on an OEM set? I'm about 300% closer than most of them are. I just want it perfect. I venture to bet that most of the iron sets on tour are no closer.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='chickenpotpie' date='07 February 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1265577089' post='2234522']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='06 February 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1265513813' post='2233271']
I have got them all adjusted to within +/- 1.25 CPM and +/- 1 swing weight.

[/quote]

That's pretty damn close, especially on the CPM's. If you are trying to get better than that, I think it's a whole lot of effort for diminishing returns.

EDIT: have you given any thought to MOI matching? This might help, since the 3 iron would have the lightest SW, moving up about .3-.4 points per club from there. That will make the clubs all feel the same dynamically, not just when you waggle them.
[/quote]

I have thought about MOI matching but haven't put the money up for the machine yet. I would love to have one!

[mac94]

I guess I would ask what is the point of getting them any closer? It's a classic case of straining the gnat. You aren't going to notice any difference.

[PGA_09]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1265578060' post='2234567']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1265573953' post='2234413']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1265567289' post='2234255']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1265517178' post='2233388']
Is there a correlation in how the clubs are off, if the swing weight is one point higher, are the shaft CPM readings lower? One point lighter and higher CPM? If that is the case, it is easy enough to correct by adjusting the head weights, if it is the opposite (heavier swing weight with higher CPM), you are probably not going to be able to get them spot on. I would say put them through their paces on the course/range and see if any of them feel off to you before ripping any of them apart and redoing them.
[/quote]

I have a perfect 4 CPM progression and 6 gram overall club weight progression. The swing weights are just off slightly. Thanks for your input though!
[/quote]

If all of those things are matched, it is a build error, sorry to say. My bet is on the dowels.
[/quote]

I agree it's probably the dowels, but it would be a stretch to call it a "build error". Have you ever checked the specs on an OEM set? I'm about 300% closer than most of them are. I just want it perfect. I venture to bet that most of the iron sets on tour are no closer.
[/quote]


Not a shot at your building at all, just a phrase that is used. It is 1000% closer than OEM builds, but if you are that picky, it was the assembly that created the variance if everything matched prior to install. At those minute variances, I would probably try them first before going to the trouble of redoing anything.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.

[PGA_09]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

I disagree with the point of swing weight being to tweak CPM, they are just intertwined in that when you change the swing weight, you will most likely affect the butt frequency since you are changing the balance point of the club. Full shaft flex profile may not change though.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1265578454' post='2234577']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1265578060' post='2234567']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1265573953' post='2234413']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1265567289' post='2234255']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='06 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1265517178' post='2233388']
Is there a correlation in how the clubs are off, if the swing weight is one point higher, are the shaft CPM readings lower? One point lighter and higher CPM? If that is the case, it is easy enough to correct by adjusting the head weights, if it is the opposite (heavier swing weight with higher CPM), you are probably not going to be able to get them spot on. I would say put them through their paces on the course/range and see if any of them feel off to you before ripping any of them apart and redoing them.
[/quote]

I have a perfect 4 CPM progression and 6 gram overall club weight progression. The swing weights are just off slightly. Thanks for your input though!
[/quote]

If all of those things are matched, it is a build error, sorry to say. My bet is on the dowels.
[/quote]

I agree it's probably the dowels, but it would be a stretch to call it a "build error". Have you ever checked the specs on an OEM set? I'm about 300% closer than most of them are. I just want it perfect. I venture to bet that most of the iron sets on tour are no closer.
[/quote]


Not a shot at your building at all, just a phrase that is used. It is 1000% closer than OEM builds, but if you are that picky, it was the assembly that created the variance if everything matched prior to install. At those minute variances, I would probably try them first before going to the trouble of redoing anything.


[/quote]

I agree... I'm going to hit them and see what I get. I achieved the CPM numbers I was looking for so I figure they will feel great. Thanks!

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1265580026' post='2234633']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

I disagree with the point of swing weight being to tweak CPM, they are just intertwined in that when you change the swing weight, you will most likely affect the butt frequency since you are changing the balance point of the club. Full shaft flex profile may not change though.
[/quote]

Very interesting - yet another twist on things (where balance point affects butt frequency). That is one that I have truly never heard. I'm not sure how this could affect 'full shaft profile' since (im my experience) shaft profiling (when done on a freuqency basis) is done to specific lengths and tip weights.

dave

[PGA_09]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1265581089' post='2234672']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1265580026' post='2234633']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

I disagree with the point of swing weight being to tweak CPM, they are just intertwined in that when you change the swing weight, you will most likely affect the butt frequency since you are changing the balance point of the club. Full shaft flex profile may not change though.
[/quote]

Very interesting - yet another twist on things (where balance point affects butt frequency). That is one that I have truly never heard. I'm not sure how this could affect 'full shaft profile' since (im my experience) shaft profiling (when done on a freuqency basis) is done to specific lengths and tip weights.

dave
[/quote]

When a club is clamped only on the butt, when the balance point moves, it will affect how much the tip section oscillates through the laser. It will more likely than not, not change the flex profile on a deflection board if the length is unchanged. Just my experiences from testing clubs before and after changing swing weight through adding weight to heads or changing grips/counter balancing.

By full shaft profile, I mean when placed on a deflection board to test. Adding weight or taking weight from the head only could potentially slightly alter the way the club deflects, since it will increase or decrease the amount of weight that is pulling down when placed on the board. It would have to be a pretty significant amount though to have a big affect on how the shaft deflects.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1265581460' post='2234685']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1265581089' post='2234672']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1265580026' post='2234633']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

I disagree with the point of swing weight being to tweak CPM, they are just intertwined in that when you change the swing weight, you will most likely affect the butt frequency since you are changing the balance point of the club. Full shaft flex profile may not change though.
[/quote]

Very interesting - yet another twist on things (where balance point affects butt frequency). That is one that I have truly never heard. I'm not sure how this could affect 'full shaft profile' since (im my experience) shaft profiling (when done on a freuqency basis) is done to specific lengths and tip weights.

dave
[/quote]

When a club is clamped only on the butt, when the balance point moves, it will affect how much the tip section oscillates through the laser. It will more likely than not, not change the flex profile on a deflection board if the length is unchanged. Just my experiences from testing clubs before and after changing swing weight through adding weight to heads or changing grips/counter balancing.

By full shaft profile, I mean when placed on a deflection board to test. Adding weight or taking weight from the head only could potentially slightly alter the way the club deflects, since it will increase or decrease the amount of weight that is pulling down when placed on the board. It would have to be a pretty significant amount though to have a big affect on how the shaft deflects.
[/quote]

I agree totally. The only way CPM and swing weight are linked is when everything matches before build. Real good stuff here!

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1265581460' post='2234685']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1265581089' post='2234672']
[quote name='PGA_09' date='07 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1265580026' post='2234633']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

I disagree with the point of swing weight being to tweak CPM, they are just intertwined in that when you change the swing weight, you will most likely affect the butt frequency since you are changing the balance point of the club. Full shaft flex profile may not change though.
[/quote]

Very interesting - yet another twist on things (where balance point affects butt frequency). That is one that I have truly never heard. I'm not sure how this could affect 'full shaft profile' since (im my experience) shaft profiling (when done on a freuqency basis) is done to specific lengths and tip weights.

dave
[/quote]

When a club is clamped only on the butt, when the balance point moves, it will affect how much the tip section oscillates through the laser. It will more likely than not, not change the flex profile on a deflection board if the length is unchanged. Just my experiences from testing clubs before and after changing swing weight through adding weight to heads or changing grips/counter balancing.

By full shaft profile, I mean when placed on a deflection board to test. Adding weight or taking weight from the head only could potentially slightly alter the way the club deflects, since it will increase or decrease the amount of weight that is pulling down when placed on the board. It would have to be a pretty significant amount though to have a big affect on how the shaft deflects.
[/quote]

I guess I understand. It just seems to me that, no matter where you add weight the measured frequency (assuming it is forward of the clamp) will go down (while balance point can go either direction depending on where the weight is added). Of course the frequency effect will be much reduced when going close to the clamp.

I'm accustomed to the "Wishon style" of shaft profiling which is fixed lengths and weights and is a shaft concept not a club concept - must be different than deflection profiling.

dave

[drpino]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='07 February 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1265567392' post='2234257']
[quote name='drpino' date='06 February 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1265514612' post='2233304']
DG Tour Issue S400/X100 are not frequency matched.
[/quote]

I frequency tested them all before install. I used a 200 gram weight. They were all perfect. Therefore, I would say that they are frequency matched, or at least these ones were.
[/quote]
Sounds like coincidence since DG are a constant weight design shaft and were never marketed or advertised as being frequency matched.

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

Before any frequency machines were available, swing weighting was the process of "matching" flexes in a given set.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='drpino' date='07 February 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1265593530' post='2235017']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='07 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265579562' post='2234619']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 February 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1265509283' post='2233088']
[quote]CPM and swing weight are intertwined,[/quote]

+1. In fact, the point of SW is to be a fine tune for CPM.
[/quote]

I have heard this before but it doesn't seem to me to be a common perspective on this issue. Where does this view come from? I understand how going up in SW [b][size="3"]can[/size][/b] (depending on how you achieved this increase) decrease CPM. But the idea the SW is just a way to tweak flex doesn't seem to me to be a mainstream perspective (that doesn't make it wrong - God knows that golf history is full of common but wrong perspectives). Does this maybe come from the use of taper tip shafts where frequency tweaking via tipping is sometimes a problem?

Just curious - thanks.

dave

ps. Back to the OP, if you are within 1 SW point of your target and 2 cpm then you are well inside of what matters to my swing.
[/quote]

Before any frequency machines were available, swing weighting was the process of "matching" flexes in a given set.
[/quote]


Hmm, that is pretty surprising. If you can't measure flex then why would you use SW to tweak this thing that you can't measure. You would think that you would do it the same way you do it now (mostly with tipping and/or soft-hard stepping).

I have read that some guy named Adams (I think) came up with the existing SW scale (and its 14" fulcrum) experimentally where that design seemed to work the best in trying to come up with different length clubs that 'felt matched'.

Of course the resulting 'constant SW designs' could well have 'felt matched' due to flex matching rather than a matching of feel related to weight, 1st moment, 2nd moment, etc.

dave

[drpino]

SW was one factor in building clubs to a desired flex, along with a gram scale and deflection board.

Tim Hewitt is a member here and a highly regarded club maker. See some of his posts on the origins of swing weight, what it was meant for and how it was used:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/179573-anyone-have-the-irons-moid/page__view__findpost__p__1236502"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ost__p__1236502[/url]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/260308-how-much-does-it-cost-to-reshaft/page__view__findpost__p__1705613"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ost__p__1705613[/url]

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='drpino' date='07 February 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1265595125' post='2235065']
SW was one factor in building clubs to a desired flex, along with a gram scale and deflection board.

Tim Hewitt is a member here and a highly regarded club maker. See some of his posts on the origins of swing weight, what it was meant for and how it was used:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/179573-anyone-have-the-irons-moid/page__view__findpost__p__1236502"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ost__p__1236502[/url]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/260308-how-much-does-it-cost-to-reshaft/page__view__findpost__p__1705613"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ost__p__1705613[/url]
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying. It's all related to how the club will feel and perform, but SW has nothing to with flex. I can use a dowel rod in place of a shaft and match it to real shaft's SW, but it would be impossible to match it in frequency. Does that make sense?