Silly handicap question

[TheCityGame]

missing a tap in.

Hole 1 yesterday, I'm playing a $2 Nassau against my old man. He makes a bogey. I miss my par putt, and have about 12 inches coming back.

We putt everything out.


I lean over the putt casually, tap it, and it lips out. He says, "ah, that was good."

So I say, "no. we're playing a match. I'll take my medicine," and I card the double bogey.

Basically, I'd take an even money bet to make that putt 1000 times in a row. It was more than 2 cups, but less than the leather. it was flat. If I was in a tournament, I stand over that putt properly, and make it.

So, for my scoring record, what say you? Post the double bogey and feel like a sandbagger, or post the bogey and feel like a "ego handicapper"?

[Sawgrass]

Post the double bogey, as you should, and revel in the knowledge that a sandbagger would never even ask such a question. You, my friend, are not a sandbagger.

(BTW, I once saw Lee Trevino lean over, swing at and whiff a putt on the lip of the hole. He looked up at his fellow competitor and said, "I intended to hit that." It happens!

[Random Hack]

Tough question; I did the same two days ago (putt was ~5") and I went to hit it in (with a long putter, but trying to do it holding it as a normal putter to stay out of my competitor's lines) and I missed it (actually stubbed the putter and hit it fat, as it's harder than you think to do that with a long putter).

I gave it to myself, as I literally could kick that putt in 1000 out of 1000.

Anything less than 6" is good, IMO - I'd rather lean towards the vanity side of a handicap than to EVER be accused of sandbagging.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1302977134' post='3159627']
Post the double bogey, as you should, and revel in the knowledge that a sandbagger would never even ask such a question. You, my friend, are not a sandbagger.

(BTW, I once saw Lee Trevino lean over, swing at and whiff a putt on the lip of the hole. He looked up at his fellow competitor and said, "I intended to hit that." It happens!
[/quote]

I struggled with how to answer this question. I like the logic behind your answer...

Kevin

[Random Hack]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1302980052' post='3159733']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1302977134' post='3159627']
Post the double bogey, as you should, and revel in the knowledge that a sandbagger would never even ask such a question. You, my friend, are not a sandbagger.

(BTW, I once saw Lee Trevino lean over, swing at and whiff a putt on the lip of the hole. He looked up at his fellow competitor and said, "I intended to hit that." It happens!
[/quote]

I struggled with how to answer this question. I like the logic behind your answer...

Kevin
[/quote]

I think that anytime you're posting a round for handicap purposes, there is an understanding that you tried your best on every single stroke.

I can't speak for the OP (although based on what he says, had he been trying on that stroke he woud've made it), but I know that had I "tried my best" on that putt that I'd make it 1,000,000 out of 1,000,000 times.

To me, recording a bogey on that hole for me would've been sandbagging.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='YipMaster' timestamp='1302980445' post='3159752']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1302980052' post='3159733']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1302977134' post='3159627']
Post the double bogey, as you should, and revel in the knowledge that a sandbagger would never even ask such a question. You, my friend, are not a sandbagger.

(BTW, I once saw Lee Trevino lean over, swing at and whiff a putt on the lip of the hole. He looked up at his fellow competitor and said, "I intended to hit that." It happens!
[/quote]

I struggled with how to answer this question. I like the logic behind your answer...

Kevin
[/quote]

I think that anytime you're posting a round for handicap purposes, there is an understanding that you tried your best on every single stroke.

I can't speak for the OP (although based on what he says, had he been trying on that stroke he woud've made it), but I know that had I "tried my best" on that putt that I'd make it 1,000,000 out of 1,000,000 times.

To me, recording a bogey on that hole for me would've been sandbagging.
[/quote]

In Lee Trevino's example given by Sawgrass, what score should he record? He wasn't trying, so they should have called it good? I see what you are saying YipMaster, but there is a difference between trying to miss it and making a mental error, which happens...

Kevin

[oldpalchamp]

We all miss tap ins. I really think for posting purposes, you made double. The concession was made after the fact. Had your dad conceded the putt prior to the stroke, then you would have made bogey.

[crtssxc]

Had a similar thing happen to me, although admittedly it was closer to 18", but on aerated greens, and an aeration hole caused the ball to jump left and just lip out. Luckily for me, the handicaps for NJ dont open until 4/15, at least per my club, so didnt have to worry about it. I carded the par instead of the bogey (as the person I was playing against carded a 7 for 6 and said I was good) and moved on without thinking about it til I saw this post.

However, if you always play to putt everything out in a match, have to take the double. If gimmes are allowed, then I would card the bogey. Kinda a long answer with some contradictions, oh well.

[golfnut5438]

I guess I'm missing something, when is a stroke not a stroke? If you holed a 60ft snake for birdie would you record a birdie or a par, when I'm sure you weren't really trying to make it, just lag it for an easy two putt right? I record all strokes and don't analyze my feelings or intentions. Too much wiggle room. Don't worry, the golf gods always pay back, either to the good, or the bad. It all evens out over the long run.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='golfnut5438' timestamp='1302982140' post='3159810']
I guess I'm missing something, when is a stroke not a stroke? If you holed a 60ft snake for birdie would you record a birdie or a par, when I'm sure you weren't really trying to make it, just lag it for an easy two putt right? I record all strokes and don't analyze my feelings or intentions. Too much wiggle room. Don't worry, the golf gods always pay back, either to the good, or the bad. It all evens out over the long run.
[/quote]

Believe it or not, there are folks who miss short putts on purpose to artificially raise their handicaps. Some call it sand-bagging, I call it cheating. The OP is just trying to avoid the appearance of evil. Valid question IMO...

Kevin

[Pepperturbo]

There are no options as I see, regardless what might be theorized. If it's a honest game or golf event by USGA rules, and the OP missed a putt, he scores and posts accordingly. There's no reason to feel like a sandbagger either - you missed the putt. Sure you would make it 9 of 10 times still you went brain dead and missed... post it and move on.

Missing putts on purpose has to be done a lot before it's going to accumulate enough strokes to effect ones index. At that juncture - people around that person would know.

[golfnut5438]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1302982498' post='3159819']
[quote name='golfnut5438' timestamp='1302982140' post='3159810']
I guess I'm missing something, when is a stroke not a stroke? If you holed a 60ft snake for birdie would you record a birdie or a par, when I'm sure you weren't really trying to make it, just lag it for an easy two putt right? I record all strokes and don't analyze my feelings or intentions. Too much wiggle room. Don't worry, the golf gods always pay back, either to the good, or the bad. It all evens out over the long run.
[/quote]

Believe it or not, there are folks who miss short putts on purpose to artificially raise their handicaps. Some call it sand-bagging, I call it cheating. The OP is just trying to avoid the appearance of evil. Valid question IMO...

Kevin
[/quote]

I agree it's cheating, but not recording some strokes while recording others is still cheating. Maybe cheating yourself more than others, but still cheating. Valid question, and a valid opinion I believe.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='golfnut5438' timestamp='1302983623' post='3159848']
I agree it's cheating, but not recording some strokes while recording others is still cheating. Maybe cheating yourself more than others, but still cheating. Valid question, and a valid opinion I believe.
[/quote]

[b]Absolutely [/b]valid opinion. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to answer honestly...

[Hawkeye77]

If you meant to hit it and missed, you must count it. If you don't feel like every stroke should be counted, for whatever reason, don't turn in any score for the round at all, rather than some adjusted score which isn't your actual score. Should take care of any issues.

[TheCityGame]

[quote name='golfnut5438' timestamp='1302982140' post='3159810']
I guess I'm missing something, when is a stroke not a stroke? If you holed a 60ft snake for birdie would you record a birdie or a par, when I'm sure you weren't really trying to make it, just lag it for an easy two putt right? I record all strokes and don't analyze my feelings or intentions. Too much wiggle room. Don't worry, the golf gods always pay back, either to the good, or the bad. It all evens out over the long run.
[/quote]
That's kind of my opinion, but it's still kind of vexing. The USGA site says this. . .

[color=#7F7F7F][b]Two basic premises underlie the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicapSystem"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i][i], [/i]namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#peerReview"]peer review[/url][/i].[/b] [/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"][/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"]
[/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"]Was I "trying to make the best score at every hole"? If I really was, I would have stopped over the putt. But, it was an honest lapse in concentration and I definitely counted the stroke for the match. OTOH, conceded strokes in match play get counted as "most likely score from that point". but, like I said, we putt em out, so that's not applicable. [/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"]
[/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"]Overall, this is a "low 10" score, so it should make about a .1 difference in my index whether I post the high one or the low one. [/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"]
[/color]
[color="#7F7F7F"]That said. . .I'm going to post the higher score. Also, I have so many scores close to that one that it should never be a big deal. It's going in as a 12.9 and knocking out a 13.4. I have several scores clustered around that.
[/color]

[jabrch]

Easy...post the double.

If you take a putt, I don't have a problem with it. But once you address the ball and decide to go at it, you own it. If your Pops wants to give you the bogey for your bet, fine...but for your handicap, eat the double.

[Random Hack]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1302980692' post='3159759']
[quote name='YipMaster' timestamp='1302980445' post='3159752']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1302980052' post='3159733']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1302977134' post='3159627']
Post the double bogey, as you should, and revel in the knowledge that a sandbagger would never even ask such a question. You, my friend, are not a sandbagger.

(BTW, I once saw Lee Trevino lean over, swing at and whiff a putt on the lip of the hole. He looked up at his fellow competitor and said, "I intended to hit that." It happens!
[/quote]

I struggled with how to answer this question. I like the logic behind your answer...

Kevin
[/quote]

I think that anytime you're posting a round for handicap purposes, there is an understanding that you tried your best on every single stroke.

I can't speak for the OP (although based on what he says, had he been trying on that stroke he woud've made it), but I know that had I "tried my best" on that putt that I'd make it 1,000,000 out of 1,000,000 times.

To me, recording a bogey on that hole for me would've been sandbagging.
[/quote]

In Lee Trevino's example given by Sawgrass, what score should he record? He wasn't trying, so they should have called it good? I see what you are saying YipMaster, but there is a difference between trying to miss it and making a mental error, which happens...

Kevin
[/quote]

In Lee Trevino's example, he's playing in a tournament and should record whatever score he gets - if you're "not trying" in a tournament, then there's something wrong with you.

I was playing a round with three guys I didn't know, not a match, and was just trying to save time and not walk in their lines.

I "mentally" gave myself the putt, so I marked it down that way in my score - again, this wasn't a "tap-in" 12" putt - this putt was shorter than all but the least well-endowed men's "junk" - it was 5", tops - I hit it fat because I was ~6' away when I tried to brush it in with a long putter with one hand (lesson learned, not as easy as you'd think and hard to not hit fat).

Anyhow, again - I'd feel like a sandbagger if I recorded a bogey there, even though I did miss the putt.

At the end of the day, one stroke doesn't really move the needle much in one direction or the other, but if anyone I knew saw me do that and record a bogey I wouldn't hear the end of "sandbagger" for a long, long time (and IMO, rightfully so) so I recorded a par.

[Hawkeye77]

Brings up a different issue, which is if you are getting putts, should any round you are not playing by the rules be turned in. A USGA handicap assumes you are playing USGA rules, or does it?

[Hawkeye77]

Decided to check and found FAQs at USGA site. If read correctly you calculate what it would take to finish the hole more than half the time, subject to ESC. Assuming this is how you handle gimmees?
So it appears the rules do have an answer.

[Guia]

Take the double bogey, overall it will not be a factor in your handicap if you have posted other scores. Yes, the USGA assumes that you have putted everything out and played by the rules.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1302991595' post='3160129']
[color="#7f7f7f"][b]Two basic premises underlie the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicapSystem"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i][i], [/i]namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#peerReview"]peer review[/url][/i].[/b] [/color]
[color="#7f7f7f"][/color]
[color="#7f7f7f"]
[/color]
[color="#7f7f7f"]Was I "trying to make the best score at every hole"? If I really was, I would have stopped over the putt. But, it was an honest lapse in concentration and I definitely counted the stroke for the match. [/color][/quote]

I understand your debate with yourself here, but IMO you [u]were[/u] "trying to make the best score." You just miscalculated how much effort was required to do it. I bet it wasn't your only miscalculation that round either.

You wanted the five, but you failed because you weren't thinking enough about what you were doing. Say you did take your normal stance but still missed it. Would you then say that because you didn't go through your complete putting routine you still weren't trying to make your best score? Of course you were trying.

There are all sorts of mental mistakes you can make in the course of a round -- like deciding to go for a sucker pin instead of the center of the green. The fact that you waste three strokes short-siding yourself doesn't mean you weren't trying, it means you messed up.

Putting down a lower score than you actually got is technically wrong, even though it may favor your competitiors in the future. You clearly respect the handicap system, so you shouldn't violate its rules just to accommodate your own subjective opinion of what's right. If you start doing that, it's a slippery slope. If in your heart you fully expected to make the putt in the fashion you attempted it, all is good.

[larrybud]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1302991595' post='3160129']
[quote name='golfnut5438' timestamp='1302982140' post='3159810']
I guess I'm missing something, when is a stroke not a stroke? If you holed a 60ft snake for birdie would you record a birdie or a par, when I'm sure you weren't really trying to make it, just lag it for an easy two putt right? I record all strokes and don't analyze my feelings or intentions. Too much wiggle room. Don't worry, the golf gods always pay back, either to the good, or the bad. It all evens out over the long run.
[/quote]
That's kind of my opinion, but it's still kind of vexing. The USGA site says this. . .

[color="#7f7f7f"][b]Two basic premises underlie the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicapSystem"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i][i], [/i]namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#peerReview"]peer review[/url][/i].[/b] [/color]


[color="#7f7f7f"]Was I "trying to make the best score at every hole"? If I really was, I would have stopped over the putt. But, it was an honest lapse in concentration and I definitely counted the stroke for the match. OTOH, conceded strokes in match play get counted as "most likely score from that point". but, like I said, we putt em out, so that's not applicable. [/color]

[color="#7f7f7f"]Overall, this is a "low 10" score, so it should make about a .1 difference in my index whether I post the high one or the low one. [/color]

[color="#7f7f7f"]That said. . .I'm going to post the higher score. Also, I have so many scores close to that one that it should never be a big deal. It's going in as a 12.9 and knocking out a 13.4. I have several scores clustered around that.
[/color]

[/quote]
0.1 difference in index COULD mean 1 shot more for course handicap... just sayin'

[Hawkeye77]

Just as a correction, it appears the FAQ I was looking at last night from the USGA applies to a four ball situation, which leads me to believe that the whole idea of what to do when a hole is conceded does not apply to stroke play, so it would seem, unless someone can point me in a different direction, in stroke play you play them until they drop and count 'em until they do drop if you are going to turn in a card for your handicap.

Interesting question and answer about what to do if darkness descends, but won't get into that, lots of interesting info on the USGA website.

I'm interested because we are [u]finally[/u] getting USGA system in place where I play. Will be interesting to see how that affects or doesn't affect play.

[Sawgrass]

Hawkeye, just to be clear, while section 4-1 of the handicap manual tells one how to submit a score when a hole isn't actually completed due to a consession or other reason, even in match play this wouldn't effect the player's score in the subject situation since the short miss happened prior to any consession.

Regarding darkness: "There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation."

[2bGood]

Short answer - if this happens once, record the score as a missed putt, if this happens every round - then you are bagging

[scifisicko]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1302983345' post='3159839']
There are no options as I see, regardless what might be theorized. If it's a honest game or golf event by USGA rules, and the OP missed a putt, he scores and posts accordingly. There's no reason to feel like a sandbagger either - you missed the putt. Sure you would make it 9 of 10 times still you went brain dead and missed... post it and move on.

Missing putts on purpose has to be done a lot before it's going to accumulate enough strokes to effect ones index. At that juncture - people around that person would know.
[/quote]

+1 .....and its factored into your handicap anyway. Most of us will have these brain fades from time to time (and add them to our score).


About 15 years ago a guy i play with was a couple under during the final qualifier for the Australian Open. He was playing with 2 pros. His 6 inch tap in was all over the line of the pros putts. They were all at or around the cut. All my friend wanted to do was stay out of their way. You know the rest - and he did miss by 1.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1303049356' post='3161478']
Hawkeye, just to be clear, while section 4-1 of the handicap manual tells one how to submit a score when a hole isn't actually completed due to a consession or other reason, even in match play this wouldn't effect the player's score in the subject situation since the short miss happened prior to any consession.

Regarding darkness: "There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation."
[/quote]

Totally agree, make a stroke, you count it. Thought I was onto something with the FAQs in regard to concessions, but really seemed directed at something other than stroke play, so I have to assume if you are turning in cards for USGA handicap, you aren't taking gimmees, yet I'm guessing most do (?). I know if I start telling the guys I play with they can't have their "inside the leather" or turning down some conceded putts just because of the handicap system, things could get just a little testy, in a still friendly way.

Strange, when out by myself or with my kids, we never think about giving or taking putts, just depends on the group, and I'm not complaining.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1303085719' post='3162806']
Strange, when out by myself or with my kids, we never think about giving or taking putts, just depends on the group, and I'm not complaining.
[/quote]

I don't ever give myself anything either. Ever. And I must admit that when I occasionally play in tournaments, I have this secret feeling in the back of my head that I'm at a distinct advantage because I'm totally used to playing strictly by the rules. In my experience, those that I'm frequently paired with -- even "serious" golfers -- can't say the same.

[TheCityGame]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1303092371' post='3163119']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1303085719' post='3162806']
Strange, when out by myself or with my kids, we never think about giving or taking putts, just depends on the group, and I'm not complaining.
[/quote]

I don't ever give myself anything either. Ever. And I must admit that when I occasionally play in tournaments, I have this secret feeling in the back of my head that I'm at a distinct advantage because I'm totally used to playing strictly by the rules. In my experience, those that I'm frequently paired with -- even "serious" golfers -- can't say the same.
[/quote]Totally agree. There are certain guys who seem to come in 76-78 net every tournament. Even my $2 nassaus with my buds. . .we putt em out. We'll give stuff hanging on the edge just so the guy doesn't have to bend over the extra 4 inches. I definitely think the ego-handicap is more prevalent than the sandbag. The sandbag just gets more attention because the consequences are worse for the rest of us.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='scifisicko' timestamp='1303085631' post='3162798']
About 15 years ago a guy i play with was a couple under during the final qualifier for the Australian Open. He was playing with 2 pros. His 6 inch tap in was all over the line of the pros putts. They were all at or around the cut. All my friend wanted to do was stay out of their way. You know the rest - and he did miss by 1.
[/quote]

That is a painful story!