Swingweight revolution

[enduro]

What club do you start with when you build a set of MOI matched irons? For a 4 - PW set would you start with the 7i as the baseline length and then go in 3/8" steps from there? Also, what about tipping, do you tip the longer irons slightly less and the shorter irons slightly more?

[matt mohi]

[quote name='enduro' timestamp='1331331149' post='4472249']
What club do you start with when you build a set of MOI matched irons? For a 4 - PW set would you start with the 7i as the baseline length and then go in 3/8" steps from there? Also, what about tipping, do you tip the longer irons slightly less and the shorter irons slightly more?
[/quote]


I usually start at what the test club we build is...Generally that's a #6 iron, but if it's a slower swing speed golfer, we'll build the #7 as the test club.

We do build everything to 3/8" increment between clubs. While it is definitely easier to build an MOI matched set with conventional headweights by going with the shorter length increment, it also has the added benefit of making the wedges a little bit longer, which for most golfers will allow them to be in a more comfortable address position where they don't have to bend over and stay down on the shot as much.

For tip trimming and keeping a 3-4 cpm frequency slope, you are correct about going with a little more trim on the shorter irons and a little bit less on the longer irons. Generally, it's about 1/8th of an inch, but different shafts respond differently to tip trimming, so you have to be careful. To get it dead on you almost have to use a goat shaft to predict how it will respond to the trimming.

[rexroh]

[quote name='matt mohi' timestamp='1331318005' post='4470783']
[quote name='pingman1' timestamp='1331315473' post='4470493']
Was the SW scale invented by Karsten years ago? Every club had steel shafts then. Is it really relevant today with the changes in materials, shafts, grips etc.

My dad had a 1955 Buick Roadmaster that was 5500 lbs. GVW, my car weighs 3500 lbs. GVW. They both will do over 100+mph, but it took his a lot longer to get there!!
[/quote]


The Lorythmic Swingweight scale, if my memory is correct, was invented in the early 1900's. I think in the teens, but I could be wrong. I think it was Kenneth Smith who was an early proponent of it and it had a different fulcrum point.

For sure when everything was more standardized for shaft, grip and head weights-or at least the range was a lot narrower than it is now-swingweight had more relevance.

It's not that there is anything wrong with SW-certainly great sets have been built and played that are swingweight matched.

It's just that we feel there is a better way to do it....And it might be that we discover an even better way to do it in the future....
[/quote]

The lorythmic scale was based on a 12" fulcrum. I had one and it was a great piece of engineering. Simple design, simple adjustments available and built to last. Unfortunately I sold it when I got a 14" scale.

[turnbowm]

[quote name='matt mohi' timestamp='1331314769' post='4470411']
[quote name='turnbowm' timestamp='1331256481' post='4466025']
In the past, I've found that weight changes (+/-10gm) at the grip end really didn't seem to change the feel/balance of a club in any meaningful way. Recently, however, I was experimenting with a light driver and found a noticeable difference after installing a Winn Lite grip, which surprised me. The club was now easier to swing and seemed to have a more balanced feel.

Measurements before and after the grip change indicated that the total clubweight was 30gm lighter and that the balance point had moved [i]three inches closer[/i] to the head, increasing the SW from C9 to D5.

This begs the question... How can significant changes in the total weight and balance point of a club be made [i]without[/i] a noticeable difference in the feel/balance?
[/quote]

The balance point is important and there is a group of clubmakers who match both the MOI and the balance point (relative to the club's length) and I think this has a lot of merit.

In terms of making changes to total weight and balance point and keeping the same feel/balance, I'm not sure what you're asking. [b]If you change the balance point, that will definitely change the feel and balance-kind of the definition.
[/b]
You could change the total weight and keep some feel the same, but the real issue isn't what you perceive, but what you don't perceive. I think that some of getting the right weight distribution in a golf club shows up on the performance side and there are things that happen on a subconscious level that makes it work for the individual golfer. But this takes some experimentation.

[b]In your case, going with the lighter weight grip gave you more head feel and usually that's important at the beginning of the swing and at the beginning of the downswing from what we can perceive. Once the club gets momentum what we're feeling is the total weight/MOI of the golf club.[/b]
[/quote]
My post was in response to those who maintain that anyone who installs an ultralite grip and notices a change in the feel/balance of a club is a victim of the placebo effect. Your comments, which I have bolded, are affirmations of what I experienced.

[avrag]

[quote name='turnbowm' timestamp='1331353098' post='4474365']
My post was in response to those who maintain that anyone who installs an ultralite grip and notices a change in the feel/balance of a club is a victim of the placebo effect. Your comments, which I have bolded, are affirmations of what I experienced.
[/quote]

Of course the club will feel differently if you install a lighter grip or a heavier grip. I did not mean to deny that completely. However, the difference will never be as huge as the change in the swingweight reading suggests.
If you put the fulcrum of a swingweight scale in a place where it seems to be more logical (closer to the butt end than the current ones), a change in grip weight would also change the swingweight reading, just not by as much as with the current method.
Or to put it differently: If you change the swingweight of a club by 4 points by using a different grip weight and if you change it by 4 points by another method (like putting weight on the head), the second method will give you a club that feels more different from the original than the first. But in both cases the swingweight scale will show a 4 point difference.
4 points being a random number in my example, but I think this is the threshold at which even the average player can feel a difference.

[friggingruven]

Really good thread here. Thank you all for contributing some insightful information.

I am going to set up a workshop at home for fiddling around with the club making process and will get a swing weight scale (because its readily available, fairly cheap, and easy to use) along with "The Search for the Perfect Swing". Thanks for the recommendation.

[jgripp81]

Bump.
I've been trying to get a driver to feel like my old titliest driver for the last 6 years. I've swing weighted, total weight and MOI and can't get it even close.
I guess it's rather nit picky for the feel I'm looking for, but there is a certain feel I get from my left hand picking up the club. That's why I like the idea of a 4in fulcrum.
There are times I find clubs at the big box stores that have the same feeling, but I believe it's the anti theft device in certain areas on the shaft that give me that feeling.