What do you do?

[TheCityGame]

So, I'm in a fourball on Saturday. It's come down to the last hole, and we're 1 up. This is a club match, one club against another for nothing more than bragging rights.

 

It's been a real good match and I have a 3 footer left for par. Our opponent, getting a stroke, has 15 feet left for par. While discussing the putt with his partner, he touches his line with his putter and says, "oh, about right here."

 

His partner says, "whoa, you can't touch the line." The putter was unaware of this. He wasn't tamping anything down. He wasn't indicating anything that couldn't have been indicated without pointing at the line.

 

So, we don't say anything. Boom, he hits the putt. All square.

 

So, what do you do? I mean that literally. . .YOU! Not some mythical ideal of how the game should be played, but. . .you, who have played 18 holes of a tightly contested match with these guys. You've gotten along fine. The guy who touched his line was real nice. His partner is already aware of the violation.

 

Is that how you want to win the match?

 

The clubs are getting together and having beers and food right around the corner. So, if you call him out, you get to sit around and talk about how you won the match.

 

Our match didn't make a difference in the overall, but we didn't know that at the time. And, honestly, I thought there was no chance he would make the putt. It was a 15 foot side-hill down hill, totally nasty pin placement.

 

Also, I'm 99% certain that his partner flat out cheated by moving his ball on two other occasions. But, that's another story.

[swbyps]

To me, "bragging rights" are not worth getting into a possible conflict over. I say something along the lines of...

"Nice putt! However, as your partner stated, you did touch the line of your putt which is technically a violation. I understand there was no intent there so how about we play sudden death to settle it"

Put it something like that. Then, you have put the onus on them as to how they want to end it. If its a big enough deal to them to raise a stink over, especially knowing there was a violation, then let them go ahead and be happy about saying they won the match. However, both sides will walk away knowing the truth about exactly what went down.

[Stuart_G]

In match play, you're completely in your right not to make a claim and to answer your question I wouldn't have either.

[quote]
So, if you call him out, you get to sit around and talk about how you won the match.
[/quote]

This would have nothing to do with it. My decision would be based on whether I thought the breach gave any advantage or not. If the game was higher stakes, I would have called it - but [u]before the putt[/u], not after.

However, if I was in you're competitors shoes and saw my partner touch the line, I would have picked up the ball then and there. That's still assuming we're just playing for bragging rights. Again, a more 'serious' game, I'd make my competitors actually make a claim.

[rogolf]

[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342445383' post='5284434']
To me, "bragging rights" are not worth getting into a possible conflict over. I say something along the lines of...

"Nice putt! However, as your partner stated, you did touch the line of your putt which is technically a violation. I understand there was no intent there so how about we play sudden death to settle it"

Put it something like that. Then, you have put the onus on them as to how they want to end it. If its a big enough deal to them to raise a stink over, especially knowing there was a violation, then let them go ahead and be happy about saying they won the match. However, both sides will walk away knowing the truth about exactly what went down.
[/quote]

Once you acknowledge that it is a breach of the Rules, you must apply the penalty - which is loss of hole for the player involved. You cannot "modify" the penalty just to be nice.

If the player's partner had any integrity, he would have applied the penalty for the Rule he knew was breached.

When games are to be played by USGA Rules, it means all of them, imo.

[swbyps]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1342445974' post='5284480']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342445383' post='5284434']
To me, "bragging rights" are not worth getting into a possible conflict over. I say something along the lines of...

"Nice putt! However, as your partner stated, you did touch the line of your putt which is technically a violation. I understand there was no intent there so how about we play sudden death to settle it"

Put it something like that. Then, you have put the onus on them as to how they want to end it. If its a big enough deal to them to raise a stink over, especially knowing there was a violation, then let them go ahead and be happy about saying they won the match. However, both sides will walk away knowing the truth about exactly what went down.
[/quote]

[b]Once you acknowledge that it is a breach of the Rules, you must apply the penalty - which is loss of hole for the player involved. You cannot "modify" the penalty just to be nice.[/b]

If the player's partner had any integrity, he would have applied the penalty for the Rule he knew was breached.

When games are to be played by USGA Rules, it means all of them, imo.
[/quote]

Point taken...but what we are talking about is essentially a casual match...even though bragging rights are on the line. However these guys want to play\settle their match, so be it. If its within the rules or not..its their match to decide as they see fit. If both sides agree to modify the rules then I dont see a problem with that. I dont think they would be committing some travesty against the game.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1342445974' post='5284480']

[b]If the player's partner had any integrity, he would have applied the penalty for the Rule he knew was breached.[/b]

[/quote]

That's really what this discussion comes down to IMHO.

Kevin

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342446859' post='5284566']
If both sides agree to modify the rules then I dont see a problem with that.
[/quote]

You mean other than the fact that such an agreement is in itself a breach of the rules?

[Solutions Etcetera]

My understanding of the rule is that it is intended to eliminate improving or testing the surface along the line. It seems clear to me that did not happen in this case so no harm, no foul.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1342445974' post='5284480']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342445383' post='5284434']
To me, "bragging rights" are not worth getting into a possible conflict over. I say something along the lines of...

"Nice putt! However, as your partner stated, you did touch the line of your putt which is technically a violation. I understand there was no intent there so how about we play sudden death to settle it"

Put it something like that. Then, you have put the onus on them as to how they want to end it. If its a big enough deal to them to raise a stink over, especially knowing there was a violation, then let them go ahead and be happy about saying they won the match. However, both sides will walk away knowing the truth about exactly what went down.
[/quote]

Once you acknowledge that it is a breach of the Rules, you must apply the penalty - which is loss of hole for the player involved. You cannot "modify" the penalty just to be nice.

If the player's partner had any integrity, he would have applied the penalty for the Rule he knew was breached.

When games are to be played by USGA Rules, it means all of them, imo.
[/quote]

@ Rogolf: Here is a note from 2-5 and a quote of 1-3:

[b]2-5: Note 1:[/b] A player may disregard a breach of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Rule-Or-Rules"]Rules[/url][/i] by his [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Opponent"]opponent[/url][/i] provided there is no agreement by the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Side"]sides[/url][/i] to waive a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Rule-Or-Rules"]Rule[/url][/i] (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-01/#1-3"]1-3[/url]).

1-3 [b]Agreement to Waive Rules [/b]
Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Rule-Or-Rules"]Rule[/url][/i] or to waive any penalty incurred

I had always believed that the potential conflict between these two above comments was absolved based on whether you were illegally deciding to waive a rule or penalty in advance (against 1-3) or legally deciding not to apply a penalty, even if you did voice your awareness of it occurring, after it had occurred (complying with the note on 2-5). Said in another way, I though that in match play you could choose to avoid calling your opponent on an infraction even if you told him that you were deciding not to do so. (Although not relevant here, the importance of this is that in this way you can tell someone they are wrong so they have an opportunity to avoid the problem in the future.)

You seem to be saying that voicing your awareness of the infraction requires you to enforce it. Are you sure that the 2-5 note doesn't override this?



@ the OP: I would have stayed silent on the topic as well, but known in my heart that the "bragging rights" were truly mine. If I didn't particularly like the opponent, I might have said, "So you decided on your own not to apply the penalty that your partner pointed out?" and left it at that.

[Chick B]

I agree with Turtleback.................your opponent essentially called the penalty................yet, he didn't concede. He is even more culpable than the guy who actually breached the rules of play. He should have picked up the coin and conceded the hole and the match...............and he would have been a winner, regardless of the actual outcome of the match. By not doing so, he's a loser and so is his partner.

[TheCityGame]

Also, I didn't want to make the match sound TOO casual. This was club against club -- we do it annually. It's just that there's no money on the line for the club that wins. There were about 25 four-balls, each worth 3 points. We would have made the match 2.5-.5 instead of 1.5-1.5.

The guy who knew the violation also seemed to flat-out cheat twice before, but in situations where it was impossible to call him on it. It's pretty hard to say to a guy, "hey, you just moved your ball." when you're looking at him through a few trees, and over a mound.

He knows he cheated. The sad thing is, I always figure those are the types of guy who assume everyone cheats, so in his head he probably didn't "lose" the match.

[Miller192]

I wouldn't have said anything. It would be no big deal to me.

[swbyps]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1342447982' post='5284690']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342446859' post='5284566']
If both sides agree to modify the rules then I dont see a problem with that.
[/quote]

You mean other than the fact that such an agreement is in itself a breach of the rules?
[/quote]

Ok guys...I understand what the rules are, but lets live in reality here. People modify rules all the time in casual matches. Im not arguing the right or wrong of it. All I was saying in an attempt to answer the question is that if the sides agree to it, then thats their business if that is the way they agreed to play it. No different than if they had all agreed they could hit 2 off the first tee. Dont want to turn the OPs thread into something other than what was asked so ill just leave it at that.

[tbarlow11]

I agree with one of the previous poster's. I would've said something along the lines of. "Hey, as your partner just said, touching the line is a breach of the rules. I don't think you gained any advantage by it, so I don't want to penalize you, especially because it was a great putt. But it is a little unfair, because you did break the rules, which may or may not have cost us the extra point (2.5 vs. 1.5). Let's find a way to settle whether we tie the match or our team wins 1UP."

From there you can play an extra hole, or do a match of cards, or flip a coin. Just find some way to settle the dispute, while still giving you a chance to take the extra point for your victory.

If they disagree with a method of settling the rule dispute, and start to claim that they made the putt, they don't want sudden death or whatever. Then at that point you just be a hardass and say well you forfeit that hole then, and we win 2UP. Conflict resolved.

Most times, I wouldn't say anything, but at the same time it isn't fair that you probably should've won the match 2UP and instead you end up tying. (I don't know if 2UP vs. 1UP has any difference in this).

[Solutions Etcetera]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1342444864' post='5284402']Is that how you want to win the match?[/quote]

Nope. And I applaud you for having that thought. There was nothing done here that provided an advantage and affected the outcome of the match. Unfortunately, you lost.

Also, unfortunately, too many folks do whatever it takes to win, and is why I don't belong to a club anymore.

[Veng]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1342447982' post='5284690']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342446859' post='5284566']
If both sides agree to modify the rules then I dont see a problem with that.
[/quote]

You mean other than the fact that such an agreement is in itself a breach of the rules?
[/quote]
It simply means the match isn't played under the USGA ROG. That doesn't mean you can't do it. You can't post the scores for a handicap, but you can still win or lose money.

As for the OP, with nothing on the line I'd find more important things to care about, like what kind of beer I'd be having that night. Furthermore, if it resulted in AS through 18, I'd want to play my playoff anyways, no reason to spoil a good afternoon over someone's ignorance about the rules. If it happened again, it would be a different story, but the first one, life's too short to be a ******.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Veng' timestamp='1342458741' post='5285980']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1342447982' post='5284690']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1342446859' post='5284566']
If both sides agree to modify the rules then I dont see a problem with that.
[/quote]

You mean other than the fact that such an agreement is in itself a breach of the rules?
[/quote]
It simply means the match isn't played under the USGA ROG. That doesn't mean you can't do it. You can't post the scores for a handicap, but you can still win or lose money.

As for the OP, with nothing on the line I'd find more important things to care about, like what kind of beer I'd be having that night. Furthermore, if it resulted in AS through 18, I'd want to play my playoff anyways, no reason to spoil a good afternoon over someone's ignorance about the rules. If it happened again, it would be a different story, but the first one, life's too short to be a ******.
[/quote]

Sorry, I wasn't taking a stand on whether you [u]should[/u] do it, just making sure you (and other readers) understood that such 'agreements' are against the rules.

[Noles]

I would have said "what a great match and I have a ton of respect for you for calling your partner for touching the line. He won't make that mistake again."

[6thFairway]

[quote name='Solutions Etcetera' timestamp='1342448042' post='5284692']
My understanding of the rule is that it is intended to eliminate improving or testing the surface along the line. It seems clear to me that did not happen in this case so no harm, no foul.
[/quote]

There's no section in this rule that states "intent" as any point of resolution. Touching the line is a penalty whether he intended to test the surface or improve the line, or whether he didn't.

8-2.b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

The rules are pretty clear this way. When intent is necessary, the rules stipulate it (such as when defining a stroke.)

[6thFairway]

Since you asked what I would do, in general I don't think I would have called this penalty. I would have been very disappointed that my opponent didn't call it on themselves.

HOWEVER, in your case you said you were 99% certain that they had already purposefully violated rules by moving golf balls when you couldn't see them-- if I was *really* 99% certain of that then I would have called the final penalty. If I got any grief later on, I'd have given it right back to them about moving a golf ball earlier in the match. But that is ONLY true if the 99% certainty isn't overstated-- 99% is pretty high.

[Veng]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1342462266' post='5286412']
Sorry, I wasn't taking a stand on whether you [u]should[/u] do it, just making sure you (and other readers) understood that such 'agreements' are against the rules.
[/quote]
Fair enough. I agree 100% it is against the rules. Like you said, if that matters is another story.

[Sawgrass]

Stuart G, I'm pretty sure it's okay for you to comment on the rules in a thread about a rule on a rules forum.

At least it's okay with me.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1342472407' post='5287436']
Stuart G, I'm pretty sure it's okay for you to comment on the rules in a thread about a rule on a rules forum.

At least it's okay with me.
[/quote]

Thanks :-) but I really did mean to imply "other than being against the rules - nothing?" just forgot to include the last part in my post. EDIT - and I didn't do it because I felt like I had to justify my orig post.

[Solutions Etcetera]

[quote name='jwrogers' timestamp='1342469136' post='5287128']
[quote name='Solutions Etcetera' timestamp='1342448042' post='5284692']
My understanding of the rule is that it is intended to eliminate improving or testing the surface along the line.[/quote]

8-2.b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.
[/quote]

I stand corrected... but it does not change the way "I" would have handled it.

[DLiver]

I actually had this happen in a match. I didn't say anything at the time, but after the match took the guy aside and told him about the rule violation so he would be aware of it in the future.

Another time I was playing in a best ball tourney, so we weren't playing directly against our playing partners. One of the guys finished putting, came over to me at the side of the green and mentioned how grainy the green was. He then scraped his putter on the green to bring up the grain. Oh crap! I thought about calling the penalty, since in this case it was a "protect the field" issue, but these guys where playing in their first tourney and were chopping up the course. Well it turns out they won their division! Boy was I shocked. This was and end of the season fun filled event, but there were decent prizes at stake. My partner and I talked about it and felt we'd done the right think, but dayum! LOL